Bi CDs?

[FabriziaGG]

Everyone has the right to self respect! To love yourself and feel good about yourself. Everyone has the right to find their soulmate and live a healthy loving relationship. Cheating, infedelity, disloyalty all mean the same whether with a woman or a man!!!!!!!!! No one deserves to be 2nd best or left overs. My advice to you darling is have a SERIOUS talk with your love one and tell him how you feel. His response to you will let you know how he feels about you. Then from there it's up to you to decide if you want to stick around. One more thing: We only have ONE life to live. Live~Laugh~Love. Find in life what makes YOU most happy!!!!!

Best of Luck! : )

fabrizia

[Stephanie W]

Georgia

Obviously this thread had slipped by me so apologies for not responding sooner.

Firstly, in answer to your main question, this phenomenon you speak of isn't unheard of. It's probably more common than you might think so you can rest assured that your better half is certainly not alone with his feelings and attraction toward men while en femme.

Within our TG communities at large, I would guess that there are far more CD's who feel that way than would ever be willing to admit. It's a touchy subject that I've run across a number of times when in conversation with others. While the hetero culture represents the multitude of CD's, the mere thought of being bi (or less than hetero) or worse, gay, does unnerve many people and with good reason. It's a guy thing, right? Now what about those TG 'admirers' who are attracted to us and actively seek out a relationship (or maybe just sex?). Are they really just guys in denial about their own homosexuality? Perhaps by being attracted to a TG girl, the fears of being gay are somewhat alleviated in their minds because they are attracted to someone with a feminine exterior - just like any guy who is attracted to a woman.

I can actually speak from my own experience in that I had a male admirer who was attracted to me, and through mutual friends, he became a dear friend to me. Now I should preface this in saying that I'm happily married and enjoy the participation of my wife in my outings. She had also met him and I was totally upfront with her about his attraction to me. In my case, I have never been interested in men in any shape or form and the thought of one being attracted to me sent shivers down my spine. That was when I first started going out en femme, but once I got used to being out, I gradually became more comfortable with the occasional attention. In my friend's case, I had been honest with him from the getgo that I wasn't sexually interested in men at all. While he understood, I think he must have enjoyed a challenge because he used every ounce of friendly persuasion to get me to change my mind, all the while remaining the consummate gentleman.

I discussed all of this with my wife at length and she had no problem with him and I being friends. (I think it was because she knew me well enough to know she had nothing to worry about). When he suggested we go out on a 'date' (no strings attached), I agreed after I was sure my wife wouldn't have a problem with that. We went out a few times, either to a restaurant, a movie, dance club, whatever and had a wonderful time.

So why did I do it? Well, although I confidently identify as hetero, I had become comfortable with him and enjoyed his company and was curious about what it would be like to be treated as a lady - by a man! The ultimate validation of sorts. Strange as it may sound, I really enjoyed it and it gave me an experience and a feeling I have never felt before. Can't really describe it except to say it awakened something in Stephanie that she had never felt before - and it made her feel good. That feeling made perfect sense to me because it felt natural. Why wouldn't it? A man and a 'woman'. Perhaps as you said Georgia, this concept that the female side has a separate sexuality that needs taking care of sometimes" could be true.

When I explained this to my wife, she said she understood, albeit with a sense of sadness for my friend because she knew (as did I) that I could never give him the loving relationship I knew he so desperately wanted. I thought she was amazing in her acceptance of my having this male friend, especially knowing how he felt about me. Eventually, I'm happy to say, he found someone who was able to give what he wanted.

Sorry for the long indulgence Georgia but I just wanted to give you a perspective from where your hubby might be coming from. Now, I must add that his desires from what you described appear very different from mine, so how you deal with it is up to you. I sense that there is little that he could do to make you want to leave, so I won't make that suggestion, otherwise, I would have to agree with the other gals here that cheating is still cheating, regardless of whether it's with a male or female. The only difference is that he is being somewhat honest with you of his intentions, so you kinda know what you're dealing with.

While some might consider it a fine line between 'dating' an admirer and a full blown affair, the question of what constitutes cheating can only be answered by the spouse. If she is aware and open to certain behaviour - making a decision to allow it, then that's upto her. You Georgia. If I had succumbed to my friend's 'persuasiveness', then yes, I would have crossed the line.

b) I would be asking him to give up something as intrinsically part of him as my sexuality is to me.

That's an admirable position to take but do you really believe that? Sounds more like a copout in my book if I were in your heels.

In your case, SilverLady brings up a valid point regarding STD's which in this day and age scares the sh** out of me, so I would tread really carefully there if I were you. I hope your faith is well founded, but please, still be careful Georgia.

So to answer your question of whether you are an incredibly understanding woman or simply someone being taken for the biggest fool...

Emotionally, however - good God almighty. I feel like a frigging fool. I am clearly aware that if I went to him and said "Ya know, there are some fantasies that you aren't willing/able to participate in and I think I need to go off for the weekend and indulge in them", he would not be happy.

What do YOU think?

I think we're all in agreement that you are the best judge in what you can handle. The strength of your relationship will ultimately decide, but I hope with a better understanding, you'll make the right choices for you, and in whatever makes you happy. Good luck.

Stephanie

[CJ]

Hi all,

Georgia,

It's a conundrum, ain't it, this "liking to be with" mixed in with this "not liking that part of" the one we're with? In a way, the emotional quandaries you brought up in this thread are a bit of a stand-in for the entire forum's raison d'être. It can be summed up in your own words, Georgia:

So, in that case, if I were to ask for total monogamy - a) I wouldn't get it, and b) I would be asking him to give up something as intrinsically part of him as my sexuality is to me.

Aye, and there's the rub. Is there any reason to suppose, for one thing, that his needs MUST come before yours? Especially if, as others here have suggested, there are options wherein his needs could conceivably be met within the relationship? Another thing: in what way is he not asking you to give up some intrinsic part of who you are by behaving as he does? Anyone who asks for "total monogamy" is not doing so out of some Twilight-Zoneish impulse, ya know. By the sound of it (assuming I'm at least partly catching your vibe), exclusive commitment in a relationship is something your own heart is, well, committed to, n'est-ce pas? Your saying that you'd give him the heave should he ever dally with another damsel sorta gives this credence.

I know, Georgia, that none of this really answers your original question. But I just thought I'd blab a little, as usual. I have no original answer to your original question, never having been all that attracted to males, m'self, not even while I'm en femme (which puts me in the weird position of being heterosexual when I'm a dude and homosexual when I'm a lady... oh well, nobody's perfect).

It does sound like you're trying really hard to put these emotionally-charged puzzle pieces together for the sake of your feelings for this man. That kind of work-on-self is always worth the effort regardless of the outcome. I just hope your heart and spirit don't get too battered in the process.

About AIDS, STD's, and all that, I have only one question: are you willing to bet your life that he plays safe when "a broad"? If not, you both must now play safe even though your relationship is, in theory, a committed one. Our desires often take us places where our bodies cannot follow. For good and ill, it's the nature of things.

From the little that I do know of you, Georgia, I believe that you'll work this out somehow. Good luck! And good health!

Love,
CJ

[Georgia(SO)]

Stephanie and CJ -

Thanks so much for your input. I truly appreciate it - especially Stephanie's explanation of how Stephanie felt when wooed, as a woman, by a man.

First, I should address the STD issue. Yes, CJ, I am willing to bet my life that he is kinky, not stupid! He is careful, of that I am assured.

Secondly, we have talked some since my original post. And I have thought about whether I am willing to live with this side of him. The bottom line is that the remainder of our relationship is quite good. This is not some "stand by your man" thing. I *like* who he is. He makes me think, he makes me laugh, he's very good to me and I enjoy our life together.

The flip side of that is this. Again there is a bottom line, after all the talking is done, and that is that there is no compromise on this issue. One of us has to give up a portion of what he or she is. Alternatives in which he plays female to my male is not a workable solution to us. It does not work for him (perhaps he's tried before with other women in his life - more information than I really need!) and the entire notion does nothing for me whatsoever. So, it comes down to this - if we want to stay together, either he has to give up the sexual part of his femme side or I have to give up the notion of total monogamy. Both are pretty important to each of us. And I guess, when it comes down to it, the decision falls on who needs what they need the most.

Our compromise, I suppose, is that he doesn't go out often and I don't leave when he does. This does not mean that there aren't times he'd like to go more often, and it does not mean that I'm thrilled silly when he does go. It means that this is the best solution we have been able to come up with.

I think the thing that I have some trouble getting my brain around is that, for him, and possibly for other CDs, is this whole notion of a somewhat individuated other person inside him. Some of ya'll seem to be fairly integrated - there's a male side of ya'll and a female side - more or less on the order of there's an Earth Mother side of me and a real professional power bitch side to me. But for many of ya'll, and for my sweetie, the two sides are more - uh - separate. He has often told me he can be a guy or he can be a girl - he can't do both at the same time. That fairly well makes some sort of sense to me - otherwise, why would he need to put on a dress to exhibit feminine qualities like tenderness and caring? I mean, I can exhibit some male traits (competitiveness, for example) while clearly remaining female. I know plenty of men who are tender and caring and cry at romantic movies without having to put on mascara. There *is* something more individuated about the multiple gender brains in CDs than in those of us who are wholly one or the other. For my guy, he is *either* one or the other - not both at the same time.

And if you follow that vein - that there is a both a male and a female inside of his male body, then it makes a lot of sense to me that both would be hetero. i.e., the male would be interested in women and the female would be interested in men. I mean, getting past labels, the whole concept of hetero is the *difference* between the two partners, while the whole concept of homo is *sameness* of two partners. If his male side is into the difference, the yin and yang of hetero sexual atttraction, why wouldn't the female side also be into the yin and yang of hetero sexual attraction? Plus, as Stephanie said, and I have suspected, having your femme personna being pursued by a man has got to be a rush and a half.

Am I good with this? No, not particularly. I still get jealous, my emotions still get tied up in knots. BUT, I am accepting enough of it that this, in and of itself, is not worth sacrificing the remainder of the relationship. Close, but not in and of itself.

And yes, he does sacrifice much more often than I do - he would probably dress 24/7 (except during meetings with clients!) if I were more comfortable with that, or if he were more comfortable being female around me. Intellectually it intrigues me that both his femme side *and* I are pretty much sure that there is only one woman in the house!

He would certainly have many more dates with guys if I were not here. Hell, for that matter, he would have more dates with women if not for me! (And I would have more dates with men if not for him). See, it's a given that Thou Shalt Not Cheat On Thy Girlfriend/Boyfriend. So nobody thinks twice when that is one of the, for lack of a better phrase, ground rules of a relationship. But when one partner has another person living inside them - well, the ground rules get pretty muddy.

So, it comes down to this - I have made the decision that this, happening occasionally, is not in and of itself enough for me to leave a really good relationship. It is, of course, very close to the line of tolerable/intolerable. And when it happens, I question all over again. And I come here to ask questions of people who feel things that I don't feel. To see if I'm reading this as I think I'm reading this. To reassure the insecure me that the secure me is on the right track. Just because I love and accept a CDing partner does not mean that I'm not insecure sometimes!

Thanks so much for your input.

[Virginia]

I would like to say a couple of things. If you remember over a year and a half ago, I posted about going to Roanoke Pride dinner/dance with my pre-op friend and the dilemma that I had --- what if Virginia were asked to dance by a male, or female for that matter, what should she do and what would she do! Well she was asked by a gay guy - yes, of course he read me, but Virginia was still beautiful. Plus the fact that gay guys are soooooooooo smooth! I accepted, it was a slow dance and it was wonderful. I felt like a lady, a woman, and he was a perfect gentleman. I danced several more dances with others - all men - no problem, they were all perfect gentlemen. Escorted me back to my seat and pulled it out for me and thanked me for spending time with them.
Then the next dilemma which, fortunately, I do not have to face now!!!! But, what if, what if Virginia was "approached/hit on" whatever, by a nice guy? A guy who knew but still wanted to pursue me - I guess he could be what we call an "admirer" but nonetheless, Virginia accepted his advances because he was nice and he treated me like a lady and made me feel like a lady wants to feel - cut to the chase! Would Virginia allow him to make love to her????????? That question will, fortunately, go unanswered for reasons that will remain my secret, but it is something that those CD'ers who go out, pass and get into those situations will have to address. Virginia is a one woman woman so it is not even a question now.
I will have to concur with SL , CJ and others, STD's are very very scary!!!!!!
Love you,
Virginia

[Stephanie W]

they were all perfect gentlemen. Escorted me back to my seat and pulled it out for me and thanked me for spending time with them.

......not even going to go there.


Virginia

I think if any CD is ever in that situation with an admirer, make no mistake, as good as you might look, he is going to know you are TG so don't fool yourself. It should go without saying that one should to be very careful, not just for safety's sake, but know where your comfort level lies. My simple advice would be to never lead him on or do anything you wouldn't follow through with. Flirting is OK but be honest about your intentions.

As to your little secret V, well, with monogamy being the order of the day, there's little point in speculating now is there? ..........however......

Stephanie

[Virginia]

You are so BAD!
Virginia

[Jeannie]

You know what the they say ladies" When in Rome do as the Romans do." Hugs.

Love
Jeannie

[Elizabeth]

Hi Georgia,

I know we have visited this subject before and I am certain we have discussed all the issues of what is cheating Vs. what is not cheating. In the end, none of that is really relevant.

All over the world men and women, women and women, men and men make agreements to share their lives together. What is acceptable, varies very widely, not only around the world, but between religious beleifs, unwritten social rules and other cultural and non-cultural reasons.

The entire idea of marriage in many parts of the world do not allow for choice or decisions, particularly for women, who many times are not given any voice either politically or culturally, leaving men to do as they wish. You however live in a place where one may chose who they live with, marry and the circumstance of the relationship. The rules, as it were.

It appears to me that you have entered a relationship, you understood what you were agreeing to. What you have agreed to is exactly the circumstance you find yourself in, perhaps even a little better that you expected. However there are times that you are unhappy with the deal you made, but not unhappy enough that it is a deal breaker in and of itself.

All I can say to that is, I beleive almost every person that enters into a marriage or a serious committed relationship, had experienced similar feelings at some point in the relationship. We would be foolish not to continually re-evaluate our deal. The entire divorce process, which is currently running at 57% is the result of people who can not live with the deal they made, regardless of whether or not they are the person changing the rules or just can't live with the rules in place.

I am sure that many people wonder how a relationship like mine and Raven(SO) can work. I am sure I am not the guy she thought she would end up with and I am just as certain I am not the person that her parents and family thought she would end with. I am however the person that loves her and she loves me. It feels right when we are together. We really enjoy each others company.

That is enough for us. Are there some downsides? Sure, I know she must take a lot of crap for being married to a transsexual, and there are the obvious questions about our age difference. But? none of that matters. We have this deal, the terms of our relationship. It may not be perfect, it may not be what both of us would want, in a perfect world, but it works for us, and it works better than anything we have ever had before.

Having said all of that, I just want to point out that we are a species that pair bond. For that reason our bodies produce hormones that only effect certain receptors in our brains, when we have sex. This causes us to have feelings of love for out partner. They are imprinted, so they don't go away, but instead make us long for that person in their absense. This makes sexual activity with others different than other behaviors.

I don't see STD's as a serious risk. I am sure your partner is just as concerned, if not more, than you. I see the real risk as the problem of pair bonding. Sometimes it can happen with not a lot of contact.

What I would fear if I were you, would be a speach that starts like this. "I didn't mean for it to happen, I wasn't looking for it to happen, but......". And I also think he may not be aware this could happen to him, but he could fall in love with someone else. IMHO, this is a real and legitimate possibility that has not been adequitly addressed in your deal. Perhaps the real question is "has my partner pair bonded with me? and if so? why does he desire others, because pair bonding should make him not want to?".

I like what Terry said. As long as the deal makes you happy overall, accept it. When it is no longer worth it to you, or provides more pain than pleasure, get out.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Georgia(SO)]

Elizabeth,

Thank you for your thoughts. This is kind of what I have been thinking - I don't make a committment in order to walk out on it just because I don't like how part of it worked out. There really are only a couple of things that will make me walk away from this promise of a life together and this isn't quite one of them.

And I am really aware, after two previous marriages, that the trick to a lasting relationship is not that nothing the other person does bugs you. It's that whatever it is that they do that bug you is still something you can live with. That does not mean it will not continue to bug you -- just that you can live with it.

And yes, we have visited this subject before because it does not sit real well with me. I have made the choice that I will not leave over an occasional walk on the wild side, but that does not mean that all my insecurities (reference two previous marriage) and all my emotions do not kick up when it happens.

I came here and asked about this because it's hard for me, as a non-TG person, to tell what behavior is part of that mindset and what is not. Let me see if I can explain this better. Take your standard issue single-gendered man or woman. If they just have to get a little action on the side, we all know what to do with that, and each couple works it out for themselves. But, I know what to make of explanations of "I just need to have new conquests".

But when you are dealing with someone who must express not only a feminine *side*, but a feminine identity within themselves, I didn't know whether the concept that *she* is attracted to men was a fairly rational function of multi-genderism. How *would* I know? So, I came here to ask.

And yes, I agree that

It appears to me that you have entered a relationship, you understood what you were agreeing to. What you have agreed to is exactly the circumstance you find yourself in, perhaps even a little better that you expected. However there are times that you are unhappy with the deal you made, but not unhappy enough that it is a deal breaker in and of itself.

That is the truth. I don't know that it's a lot different than being with someone for whom you thought fishing was a hobby, only to find yourself surrounded by lures and reels everywhere you turn. Just not something I can run past my best friend over coffee cake!

Thanks ya'll.

-georgia(so)

[Azurielle]

I'm with Jeannie on this one: Cheating IS cheating. No matter what.

[ShamrockFaerie(SO)]

I can speak with some intelligence about this because I am bisexual. In my view, once you make a commitment to someone, once you are in a monogomous relationship, regardless whether it is with a man or a woman, you are monogomous. Period. I don't cheat on my husband just because a part of me is attracted to women. Just like a straight person doesn't cheat just because they find other people attractive. It's a matter of commitment, and being bisexual doesn't exempt you from the responsibility and committment that a relationship requires.

Dressing and fantasy are one thing. Cheating is something else entirely. In my opinion, using crossdressing as an excuse to cheat on your spouse or SO is just about as low as you can go. Most CDs don't cheat on their SOs. In fact, most respect and value their SOs above and beyond all others, because they know, accept, and love them for who they are. It's a matter of respect, and if your guy is "sticking it to" someone else, that's disrespectful and wrong.... It takes away from your value in the relationship, and quite frankly, it puts you in danger of STDs if he comes home to you afterwards. Unless you have discussed an "open relationship" where you both have a right to sleep with other people and you aggreed upon terms to make sure you're both safe, then his actions are unfair, wrong, and dangereous. I, personally, believe that "open relationships" are a bunch of hooey.... just an excuse for two people who are attracted to each other but don't give a crap about each other to have their cake and eat it too.

I am bisexual. I have been since birth. I do not distringuish between gender lines when I am looking for a romantic relationship. Both genders have important and valuable assets. But you simply don't settle down with one person (of EITHER sex) if you're not willing to give up the other gender. For me, it's a matter of personal integrity. I told my husband (just as I do ALL of my partners) when we first started dating that I was bisexual and that I am generally more attracted to women than to men physically. It was only fair that he knew. However, when things became serious and we moved in together, I made a committment to him that I would be in a monogomous, faithful relationship with him and him alone. Bisexual people are completely capabale of making that committment, and to say otherwise is not only offensive to every bisexual person walking the face of the planet, but it's also offensive, disrespectful, dishonest, and borderline abusive to the partner on the recieving end of that lie. Don't fall for it.

Now, I'm not saying that your SO doesn't have urges or certain "itches" he needs to get scratched. And I'm not saying that he doesn't have a right to pursue ways to make that happen. But here's the key.... YOU are his partner. He made a committment to you, and it's up to HIM to find ways to keep his word. My husband has similar fantasies, so we went out and got a couple of anal probes and strap ons, so that I can scratch that itch for him. I take on a more masculine, dominanat role, and he seems relatively satisfied with that. There is a level of comprimise that doesn't involve infidelity, but it requires that both partners be committed to monogomy and to each other, and it also requires that both partners step outside their comfort zone a bit and try new things.

If he continues to step out on you, get out. Cheating is cheating. Period. And being bisexual doesn't give anyone a free pass on that front. It's that simple.