I do believe you are correct about what is considered appropriate being different depending on where or when you are in the world.
I also agree with you about the feminine side having an influence over the colors we choose and things we buy.
Given the posts I have seen here and in other forums from others who, like me, wear feminine attire of some sort all of the time without disguising their male identities, I have to wonder about your question "how can we be expected to be ourselves when no one wants us to?". While I tend to be quite androgynous, some others have gone out in decidedly and obviously feminine clothing in many different situations without any problems at all. Perhaps a few funny looks but not more than that. It sounds like they get less attention than most CDrs that go out in full femme.
One even wrote of going into a women's only store to buy some pants and told the sales clerk that they were for him as he didn't like the men's styles. The clerk only chuckled. I'm seeing more and more accounts like this posted almost every day. Is this an indication that society is perhaps a bit more accepting than some of us give them credit for?
Even reading Julie M.'s accounts of going out fully dressed give me reason to believe that things are not as bad out there as some of us might think.
I still say we should dress conservatively and appropriately for the venue we are entering but I firmly believe that we can start to wear what we feel comfortable in. Although I don't believe the time is quite right for a man in a dress or even a skirt. But femme pants and tops seem to be doing OK these days. Even without makeup and wigs.
Whatever you accomplish in life is a manifestation not so much of what you do, as of what you believe deeply within yourself that you deserve. - Les Brown
Kathy wrote; And, one of these days the "moral minority" will run headlong into the "silent majority" and the sleeping giant will open its eyes just long enough to slap them down before falling fast asleep again. Wise words.
9 11 is a good example, they took down the world trade towers, and woke up a sleeping giant. The same is true with the Gay marriage issue. People are talking to me about that issue who never used to say any thing about it before, There were sleeping, and now are awake.
Ahzz I do not have a problem with your conviction, You just won't find me along side of you, sorry about that! You are a deep thinker and you are right about the way you see many things. But quite frankly it has taken me most of a life time to find out that the only person I can change is myself, and I have enough trouble doing that.
The best one can do is provide information and leave the decision up to society. I have friends who in there mind I am one of them, and all I get from them, is you will not change my mind. In fact one is more powerful if they are not seen as attempting to change any ones mind.
Any one who becomes my friend and then attempts to change me is no longer a friend, they are immediately written off at that point.
Kathy wrote; And, one of these days the "moral minority" will run headlong into the "silent majority" and the sleeping giant will open its eyes just long enough to slap them down before falling fast asleep again. Wise words.
9 11 is a good example, they took down the world trade towers, and woke up a sleeping giant. The same is true with the Gay marriage issue. People are talking to me about that issue who never used to say any thing about it before, There were sleeping, and now are awake.
Ahzz I do not have a problem with your conviction, You just won't find me along side of you, sorry about that! You are a deep thinker and you are right about the way you see many things. But quite frankly it has taken me most of a life time to find out that the only person I can change is myself, and I have enough trouble doing that.
The best one can do is provide information and leave the decision up to society. I have friends who in there mind I am one of them, and all I get from them, is you will not change my mind. In fact one is more powerful if they are not seen as attempting to change any ones mind.
Any one who becomes my friend and then attempts to change me is no longer a friend, they are immediately written off at that point.
Thank you for the compliment. Jassmine and I tend to get into philosophical debates on a frequent basis, I just never thought of it as been deep. heh.
Just because yoiu have a different view does not mean you have to toe my line. It also doesn't mean that you are wrong, just that youi see it differently. There is a perspective for every pair of eyes in the world and no two will ever be the same. If you want to take your own path, then I salute you. That get's more respect from me than jumping into my bandwagon.
on the note about your friend, I don't advocate beating them into submission. Society will do that for us eventually. Evern today there are still womanizers and racists. What I do aim to do is subtly change the perspective of the ones that are willing to see another side but have only seen poular media hype and heard from the vocal antagonists. They are the ones that will eventually become the majority and we will be able to prevent the minority from taking things out on us in general. These that are open to alternatives are the ones that I have squarely in my gun sights, and i'm armed with information.
Although peoples ideas and opinions constantly change, any major changes to peoples views on issues such as sexuality, gender, race, religion etc usually takes one, or two generations before any major changes in thinking come about. The only sure way to effect major changes in peoples ideas is to educate the children from the earliest time that diversity has and always will exist in humans and if they grow up knowing this then they accept it as just another fact of life, which it is.
I must admit though, here, over the last 20 years there has been huge steps forward, due to a lot of hard work and the refusal of many to accept defeat. We do have legislation now which makes it an offence for any person to discriminate against a TG person or their family and we are constantly working towards having that legislation improved, but it takes time and endless energy. It's a case of getting out and flapping one's skirts in the pollies faces.
At least we now have uniformity throughout Australia in that all previous laws which made it an offence for a man to go out in public dressed in female clothes, have been abolished.
As we all know, we first have to accept ourselves for who and what we are before we can expect anyone else to accept us. It's essential to develop a good self esteem about how we see ourself as a person. It's about how valuable and worthwhile we see ourself as a person and how good we feel about that. It's not about trying to prove to others how good we are, it's about believing in ourself and what we can and need to do.
Unfortunately too many peoples lives are adversely effected by their feelings of guilt in that they believe they are violating set moral codes. Moral codes set down by society can often have more punishing effects on a person than enacted legislative laws. Many people tend to punish themselves severely if they feel they have violated moral codes which they are expected to abide by, but a person who has a good self attitude and self esteem will not do that.
Moral codes are a major contributor to guilt, but really a moral code is only a set of fixed rules which have been established over time by people who have placed themselves in authority. Presumably they do this to simplify things for people with less of an overview, to ensure those people's behaviour is more likely to enhance their lives along the thinking of the person in authority. It's usually about control and power, such as happens in religious orders of all denominations.
Moral codes are fixed ideas so they can never work in all circumstances, they can be seen as ways of not dealing with things, not taking responsibility for one's own actions.
Every person is an individual, and as such, each of us are unique. We all differ from each other to varying degrees, there is no ' one size fits all'. We have to be careful of other peoples opinions, as they are no more than that, they are just opinions, each person has to develop their own insight into themselves to find their own answers.
It's always helpful and useful to hear other peoples opinions and experiences if only to confirm similarities in ourself, but in the end it's only ourself who can determine how far we go or what makes us happiest. Whatever opinions society holds, not everyone dresses solely to portray a female image. each individual needs to determine what the need is which makes them dress. To some it may be for erotic reasons, or for comfort or just that it feels nice or right, or the need to look feminine etc etc, but it's something only each person can decide for themselves.
I tend to agree with Alexandra, where I saw elsewhere she said, "We don't have to explain ourselves, we just are". I too see no earthly reason why I need to make excuses for myself, I didn't suddenly decide one day to choose to become a member of a minority suppressed group, I was born as I am and had no control over it, the same as any other person who is born the way they are, as to gender, sexuality, colour, size, physical attributes etc etc. Times have changed now to the effect where I find it's easier to get out in their faces, I don't believe I or anyone else should be confined to self imprisonment when we have done nothing wrong.
Having said all this, I still believe that it's most important we be honest with those close to us, who love us and cherish us. It can often have repercussions if we tend to colour things up or gloss them over. One mistake can be to make promisies we know we may or may not be able to keep. To firmly say, this is as far as I ever want to go can be a mistake as we don't have a crystal ball to see what our future needs and demands may be. If we are honest and open, as we should be if we have a good self esteem and have no need to make excuses for ourself, and we honestly tell how we feel, what we think and what we need then we are more likely to get good feedback as to how our SO feels and thinks. If we keep in mind that what makes us happy may not necessarily make her happy and there is a need for give and take in compromise, then we have a great chance of being able to live more as the person we really are.
I know it's not easy to stand tall when one is continually beaten down, but sometimes we can be our own worst critic which ends in our self esteem taking a huge beating. I know my life only began to change for the better years ago when I came to terms with how I felt and what had to be done about it. Some of us can do it on our own, some need help and validation from others, but before we can ever hope to move forward we have to stop making excuses for ourself and determine we will not live in self imprisonment.
Kind Regards.
Sally.
Watch nature, because it’s our greatest teacher, it moves and flows and moves on again. We can never be free until we disengage, so allow life to flow as you find it. The way it is, is the way it is.
You've gone to the crux of the issue: how can we be expected to be ourselves when no one wants us to? Oh, on the face of it, we are expected to be ourselves... as long as our selves are like everyone else's.
I think we'd do well also to remember that we are society; society isn't something outside of us. Kathy's very individualistic stance is as useful a tool for change as is the broader social regard advocated by Ahzz, for example. How we choose to be, to exist, in the world, in society, can very much be a matter of temperament and personality. As we all know, "it takes all kinds." And I, for one, am very glad to see "all kinds" here, on the forum!
Sally,
Great post! As usual, you manage to circumscribe issues in a very eloquent manner. Thanks!
This has certainly been one of the most enlightening threads I have ever been involved with. At least that I recall.
I asked earlier how could we be expected to be ourselves when no one wants us to? The answer is. we are not expected to. That is the whole problem. Not only are we not expected to be who we are, we are expected to not be who we are, for the betterment of society.
Now I can't just sit here and say I have not benifited from the social structure that has allowed me to live a substantially higher standard of living than the majority of the inhabitants of the planet. At the same time, I am still a person, with my own individual needs. And if I can not live a happy life, than it doesn't really matter if I have running water or not.
Every race, every religion, every civilization since the beginning of mankind has had people who could not intergrate into the social structure for a wide variety of reasons. The punishment has always been the same, to be oestrasized. And here we are millions of years later, and now it is almost impossible to oestrasize us, because of communications, particularly the internet.
When I was 11 years old in a small town in Wyoming in the early 70's, there was no way I could beleive that there could possibly be other boys like me. There was abslutely no way to find out, until I read about a woman who was trapped in a man's body in the Reader's Digest. I was embarrassed that I might even get caught reading it. As I read about this woman trapped in a man's body, I realized that this was how I felt. But it would still be 15 years before Phil Donohue would would have transvestites on his show to tell the truth about it.
It has only been 20 years since a large part of the population had never even seen a crossdresser, except as protrayed by Hollywood. When you consider race relations almost 140 years after the end of slavery here in the States, we may be expecting things to move along a little faster than they actually do.
Besides, somebody has to be blamed for societies ills. Minorities work great in most situations.
Gah, after re-reading my posts I realized exactly how bad my spelling and grammer is when I'm worn out and brain dead to the world. 8-P Ya'lls posts make me seem like a 6th grader trying to write. *sigh*
One of these days I'll get to the point that I have time to post and write during the day on a regular basis when I won't be quite so bad...(I'm being a bad boy and taking time to write when I should be working on servers and code. 8-P)
Society is one of those paradoxical things. It can be taken as a whole or it can be taken on an individual basis. Unfortunatly I believe that the world today works as a whole via the mob mentality far more than it does as individuals. 8-( This is another thing that I would love to see changed.
Anyways, VERY well put and compelling arguments ladies. You all are the most inteligent and thoughtfull group that I have EVER run into after 10 years of using the Internet.
Thought to chew on. Isn't it interesting that the most inteligent people also happen to be the odd balls of society? Any ideas on why this has come to be?
Ahzz asked; Thought to chew on. Isn't it interesting that the most intelligent people also happen to be the odd balls of society? Any ideas on why this has come to be?
Yup! It is the position of the majority of society that has forced me to look for answers that I would not have looked for if we had the acceptance we all think we need, and I am not so sure I would want it any other way.
That is exactly how I feel. Like society has forced me to look inward, in such a way that most people are never confronted with. I do feel enlightened, like I am one of the chosen ones, not one of the excluded ones.
Darlene wrote:
Yup! It is the position of the majority of society that has forced me to look for answers that I would not have looked for if we had the acceptance we all think we need, and I am not so sure I would want it any other way.
That is not how I expected that paragraph to end. I never in my wildest dreams thought I would ever have the kind of acceptance I have recieved here. It has changed everything. I feel totally alive. No one is ever going to be happy with what I am doing, so why worry about it? I have stopped trying to justify my existance. I can not. But neither can anyone else. Darlene, you are correct, what I learned to get here has a value not worth trading for anything. There is nothing of equal value.
The intelligent ones figure out that life is to precious not to enjoy every minute of it so they just go their own way and to h**l with the masses.
So, what are we waiting for???
Whatever you accomplish in life is a manifestation not so much of what you do, as of what you believe deeply within yourself that you deserve. - Les Brown
Just to add a bit regarding us intelligent oddballs. There is much documented psychological research literature which confirms that on average, Transgendered persons are at least 15 IQ points above that of the general population of the so called 'normal' society. Dr Sarah Seton of Canada who has spent a lot of time helping TG people has accumulated much evidence herself to support this fact.
Whilst this may be impalpable to some sections of the community who see us as an enigma and prefer to label epicene people as misfits, I prefer to see it as being one of the chosen few and that extra intelligence enables us to withstand whatever is thrown at us, it makes us stronger, wiser and more compassionate people.
Kind Regards.
Sally.
Watch nature, because it’s our greatest teacher, it moves and flows and moves on again. We can never be free until we disengage, so allow life to flow as you find it. The way it is, is the way it is.
Sally the only thing that has helped me become more stronger, wiser and compassionate is seeing myself as an imperfect person with faults that I can not change. If you want to call that extra intelligence so be it, but I don't see extra intelligence as something I was originally gifted with. In fact for many years I demonstrated just the opposite.
Could it be that being eccentric, or outside the circle, also forces one to think outside the box?
Love,
CJ
Guilt is like putting plaster on a wall. No matter how much you add, it will only allow so much to stick. After the guilt of crossdressing, I could pretty much pile as much guilt on as I wanted. It didn't matter because I was already at my threshold. This allowed me to think about anything. Once I was outside the circle there is no way to not think outside the box. Unless of course thinking outside the box is what made me eccentric. I can never not know what I know. As it was so eloquently put earlier by Darelene "and I am not so sure I would want it any other way."
Could it be that being eccentric, or outside the circle, also forces one to think outside the box?
Love,
CJ
Actually, I've always been an "outsider" since the 5th grade until only the last few years when I fainlly wedged my way back into society by playing their rules. Don't get me wrong, I didn't change anything aboutmyself. I just didn't act on certain compulsions that others would find unacceptable.
I believe that because of that long term "outsider looking in" perspective I have been granted something that most people in society would greatly benifit from. Introspection without outside pressures. I literally gave up trying to be anythign that society wanted me to be from age 16 until age 24/25.
Because of this, I figured out the majority of who I truly am rather quickly. Now I also have a decent idea of how to co-exist inside of society without freaking even the most conservative out. I guess you could say it's a lot like theater. I reveal different aspects around different people. I tend to get a gut feeling of what will fly and what won't.
An interesting side note, I find myself absorbing aspects of those that spend a decent amount of time around me into myself when I am around them. I soppose youi could almost call my ability a "personality chameleon".
I wonder if I would make a good foreign-soil spy.
Anyways, I digress quite a bit here.... Ya'll have drawn out even more of my female traits in the last few weeks. Ones I hadn't really noticed before. Looking back, most have been there for many many years, just never acted on. So even for someone like myself, a forum like this with such inteligent, accepting people can have really good benifits.
oops, spent too much time, jassmine will kill me later for "playing around" here while she is back at the house working on it. I was supposed ot just restart a dead server and load up the car and run back!
Jassmine and I tend to get into philosophical debates on a frequent basis, I just never thought of it as been deep. heh.
It also doesn't mean that you are wrong, just that youi see it differently. There is a perspective for every pair of eyes in the world and no two will ever be the same. 
