Crossdressers-Haven.com

Posted: **Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:41 am**

(I saw this on the MSN homepage and thought I would post it)

We've all been told that honesty is the best policy. And I'm not saying it isn't. Except...

Total honesty is great in theory but in practice it can be the sharpest of the double-edged swords. And as we all know: those who live by the sword often die by it. How much should you tell a newfound friend and potential partner? And how do you tell the difference between appropriate disclosure and too much information?

"Honesty is usually the best policy," Alberta says. "But honesty is not necessary the same as full disclosure. If you aren't honest with a romantic partner, you are setting up patterns in your relationship that will lead to a lack of communication in general as you withhold more and more of your experience."

So, you can tell him that you'd dated a lot of people, but you don't have to disclose every intimate detail or make comparisons (unless they're favorable to your current partner, or course). Doing so does nothing to further your current relationship, so what's the point?

"If the information really isn't important and might cause unnecessary conflict, then it's not a big deal to withhold it," notes Russ. "If it's information that affects your relationship, you've just got to tell."

For instance, if you're living with someone and you experience a financial hardship like losing your job or getting charged for back taxes, you need to tell your partner that this could affect your ability to make monetary contributions to the joint household — not to mention the state it might put you in emotionally.

But Russ says, "If I lose my job as a single person, it's not going to affect anybody but me right now. Just the same, being unemployed isn't something you probably want to mention on a first date, even if it's true."

Another thing to consider: if you choose not to be honest, you have no right to expect honesty from your partner.

"I kept seeing other people until Lance and I were practically engaged," recalls Marie. "I felt bad about it, but I thought 'what he doesn't know won't hurt him'. Besides, I wasn't quite ready to give up my freedom." But when he told her he was seeing other people, too, she blew her stack.

"I was furious until my mother pointed out that I had no place to be hurt or mad since I was doing the exact same thing to him," she says. Lance and Marie continued to date around until they'd both sowed their wild oats. Now they're married.

"That experience taught us both a lot about being honest," Lance says. "I was upfront with her and it got the issue out in the open — that neither of us was quite ready to settle down. It kind of hurt that she'd kept her fears from me, but we worked through that. Now we're very open and honest."

The best way to know if you should tell or not? Trust your gut. "If you feel like you should tell, you probably should," Alberta says. If you don't trust your judgment, ask a trusted friend for counsel.

This still bothers me. I still find it difficult at times. My husband tells me that he is now being totally honest with me about everything. But I wonder, how can he now be completely honest when he hasn't been since I've known him? How does one simply just start being honest?

"Another thing to consider: if you choose not to be honest, you have no right to expect honesty from your partner."
I also have a difficulty with this. I was honest and upfront about everything about me from the beginning of our relationship. I now feel that I shared too much of myself with my husband. I was honest with him from the beginning, but I didn't receive the same in return. I did and still do expect the same, just didn't receive the same. I'm even a bit angry with myself about that and I feel that I let myself down in a way. I feel that until a person is ready to be open and honest with the partner they chose to spend their life with, they shouldn't make a commitment to them. I don't feel that it's fair to the other person.

Posted: **Fri Jul 02, 2004 10:57 am**

Hi Love (SO),

Ah, you raise some very valid issues. I feel and my CDing hubby agrees, that reason most men are not forthcoming about their CDing, is fear. I would think their biggest fear would be losing a woman that they truely love and cherish. I also feel that something like CDing needs to be discussed early on in the relationship. The woman does deserve that. Ahzz, filled me in during our first date. I so respected him for having the courage to do that

Alas though, most men do not. I for one do not blame them. I ask, how would you have handled this revelation, if he had told you at the beginning of your relationship? Would you have stayed with him?

Please, keep in mind that him telling you was no easier than you learning of it. He put a lot on line. Also, bear in mind that society in general, still shuns Cding. "Shrug", don't know why. Society seems to have no trouble accepting a woman wearing a man's suit. What's the difference? I don't see one. CDing is CDing, period.

Is he being completely honest with you now? I would think so, I may be wrong, but I doubt it. Have you caught him in other lies? Has he cheated on you? If not then, please give him the benfit of the doubt

After all, he loves and trusts you enough to have confided in you, yes?

I wish you both a world of happiness together:)

Posted: **Fri Jul 02, 2004 12:12 pm**

Hello Jassmine,

Thank you for your response.

I'll try to answer some of your questions and respond to some comments,

Jassmine wrote: I also feel that something like CDing needs to be discussed early on in the relationship. The woman does deserve that.

I totally agree with you!........(not being told 17 yrs. and 2 children later later) is not good for the relationship

Jassmine wrote: Ahzz, filled me in during our first date. I so respected him for having the courage to do that"

I respect his courage in letting you know from the start as well. Bravo!

Jassmine wrote: I ask, how would you have handled this revelation, if he had told you at the beginning of your relationship? Would you have stayed with him? "

That's a tuffy because I wasn't given that opportunity back then. As I'm sure the same is true for you, I am a much different person now than I was back then (and so is my husband) But I do feel that I was much more "open" and not as "set in my ways" as many people become over time. It's not so much that I have a "problem" with anyone dressing a certain way, I feel that everyone needs to live their life as they see fit, so long as they aren't "hurting" anyone. But, (here's the "but"....lol) I personally am attracted to a "man" and I'm not "crazy" about seeing "my" man dressing and trying to "look" like a woman. I feel in a way, that he presented himself to me as what he thought I wanted/needed in a man, which is who I feel in love with.

Jassmine wrote: Society seems to have no trouble accepting a woman wearing a man's suit. What's the difference? I don't see one. CDing is CDing, period."

I don't have a problem with anyone wanting to wear what they want to wear. If a woman is wearing an actual man's suit then yes, I would agree she would be considered CDing. But I don't feel that women are CDing by wearing a pantsuit or even jeans if it's made to fit a woman's body. I am a very feminine woman but I also do wear pants, it's just more practical some times. I'm not trying to look like a man when I wear pants, nor has anyone ever mistaken me for a man.

Jassmine wrote: Is he being completely honest with you now?"

I would hope so.......I have told him I will be gone otherwise.

Jassmine wrote: Have you caught him in other lies?"

yes, I have....many times....(I could list them all but, how much time to you have?........lol) Some would maybe be considered more of an "omission", but as his wife an life partner, those things should have been told to me when they occurred, not by me finding out on my own.

Jassmine wrote: Has he cheated on you?"

I don't think so, but since he hasn't been the most honest and forthcoming person it's hard for me not to think about it sometimes.

Jassmine wrote: I wish you both a world of happiness together"

awww, thank you Jassmine, your very sweet

and I wish you both many years of happiness also

Posted: **Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:02 pm**

Hi Love,

I told ~D~ about my CDing after about 6 dates, it just felt the right thing to do. A few months later she had a big problem with it that lasted 4 years. Now she is fine, we are growing all the time. When I started seeing ~D~ I was only interested in a relationship that was open and honest. To have a life partner I could be bonded with. But I suppose that sounds so easy on computer screen, we tussled quite a bit in trying to find the 'us' . Although it took a while, I know it was necessary, we wouldn't be together now, otherwise.
I expect a lot of it goes back to upbringing, the past etc, and how people can put up barriers and if not sorted out, become a habit.
I agree with jassmine in that the fear of talking for a CD can be monumental, I told a previous girlfriend before I met ~D~ and it nearly killed me.
In the end, communication must be the key. Whenever ~D~ and myself have an issue to talk about, we both do our utmost to keep the atmosphere relaxed and not get irate. Otherwise things can get out of hand.

Being honest can lead to difficulties (Iknow this one) but I can't see any other way

Insecurity... when there's nothing to hide, there's nowhere to run.

Love and best wishes to you and your SO
Rebecca xxx

Posted: **Fri Jul 02, 2004 4:26 pm**

Love (SO) wrote:Hello Jassmine,

Thank you for your response.
I count myself very fortunate to have learned how to accept others as is, at a very young age. Wasn't easy, though. Went through some very difficult times in my childhood. So, I guess you can say that I can see things from both sides of the coin because of my experiences. I am hoping that I can be of some help to anyone here who may need it

I'll try to answer some of your questions and respond to some comments
,

I thank you You have give me some valuable insight from your perspective.

I totally agree with you!........(not being told 17 yrs. and 2 children later later) is not good for the relationship
Sigh...No, it is not good at all. Sadly many relationships start on that very same rocky foundation. One person may bend themselves to be what the other person wants, only to learn later that they cannot keep that up. They have to be who they are. "Shrug", could be the woman is into the kinkier side of life;) While the man is more traditional, (My second marriage was that way) , the man bends to try save the relationship but it doesn't work. Of course, from my side, I didn't let on til much later about my preferences. Bad Jassmine. I guess what I am saying is that lack of openness and trust at the relationship's beginning is a common problem.

I respect his courage in letting you know from the start as well. Bravo!
I shall let him know He kept that part of himself hidden from others for quite a few years. It was such a relief for him to feel ok about sharing it with me. I know it wasn't easy for him to keep that part of himself supressed.

That's a tuffy because I wasn't given that opportunity back then. As I'm sure the same is true for you, I am a much different person now than I was back then (and so is my husband) But I do feel that I was much more "open" and not as "set in my ways" as many people become over time. It's not so much that I have a "problem" with anyone dressing a certain way, I feel that everyone needs to live their life as they see fit, so long as they aren't "hurting" anyone. .

Ah, so right you are. We all go through many changes in our lifetimes Ah yes, keeping an open mind is very awesome and very important. A big BRAVO to you You be a very wise woman! I agree completely, live and let live You would be surprised at the number of people who can't do that. Just look at the predjuidecs which still exist:( Religious, racial, anti-gay, and there still are sexual predjudices floating around out there, i.e, "A woman's place is in the home".

But, (here's the "but"....lol) I personally am attracted to a "man" and I'm not "crazy" about seeing "my" man dressing and trying to "look" like a woman. I feel in a way, that he presented himself to me as what he thought I wanted/needed in a man, which is who I feel in love with.
Hmmmm....I kind of understand what you are getting at. But whether he is en femme or not, he is still the man you fell in love with. He's just expressing another part of his nature. Just a thought, why not be friends with his female persona? Get to know her. I think you will find that she is quite similar to her male counterpart, and not a completely seperate being. This may help you get past the "not "crazy" about seeing my "man" dressing and trying to look like a woman" hurdle. "Shrug", just a thought. All people have masculine as well as femine charterisics and urges. It is just the way we are made I feel this gives us a better understanding of each other.

]I don't have a problem with anyone wanting to wear what they want to wear. If a woman is wearing an actual man's suit then yes, I would agree she would be considered CDing. But I don't feel that women are CDing by wearing a pantsuit or even jeans if it's made to fit a woman's body. I am a very feminine woman but I also do wear pants, it's just more practical some times. I'm not trying to look like a man when I wear pants, nor has anyone ever mistaken me for a man.
I concur, that a woman shouldn't be considered CDing just for wearing pants, as it is at times much more practial I , on the other hand, do prefer mens' jeans, shirts, boxers, and sneakers, over womens' . I feel much more comfortable in them as they seem to fit me physically and express a part of my persona much better. So, I do consider myself a CDer I have a very strong masculine nature, and yet I am quite femine as well. It all depends on my mood as too which persona I choose to be at that time. Not been mistaken for a man either, though;) Wouldn't bother me at all if I was I am just who I am:)

I would hope so.......I have told him I will be gone otherwise.
Good girl!! Honesty is the foundation of a solid relationship. Staying in one where there isn't that honesty and trust hurts both people.

yes, I have....many times....(I could list them all but, how much time to you have?........lol) Some would maybe be considered more of an "omission", but as his wife an life partner, those things should have been told to me when they occurred, not by me finding out on my own.
LOL!! I do love your sense of humor:) Ah, Ahzz and I have discussed that very thing. We both agree that a lie of omission is still a lie. Absolutely!! An open line of communication is also neccessity for a good relationship. Nothing closes that line faster than fear, though. So, he may still be a bit fearful of opening up completely to you. That is something he will need to work on. All you can do is to be there for him and give him the patience and understanding he needs to conquere this. I know that once trust has been broken it is VERY difficult problem to correct. But it can be done:)

I don't think so, but since he hasn't been the most honest and forthcoming person it's hard for me not to think about it sometimes.
I understand that completely. Under the cirumstances, all you can do is give him the benefit of the doubt and hope for the best. Not easy, I know. You are a remarkable woman! I am sure you two can get through this You both seem willing to work at it and that is fantastic!

awww, thank you Jassmine, your very sweet
and I wish you both many years of happiness also

"BLUSH"....Thank ya kindly

Take care and have a fantasic Friday!!

Posted: **Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:10 pm**

Hi Ladies,

I don't want to seem argumentative, and don't want to offend anyone or minimalize thier point, because I agree that up front honesty is what everyone deserves. I did not tell my wife about my crossdressing. It turned out to be a huge mistake. She had every right to know about something that important.

I would like to share my reasons why. Not excuses, reasons. When I met and fell in love with my wife, I must admit I was quite smitten. More so than I had ever been with any woman. And what happened was, I lost my desire to crossdress. I figured that crossdressing was filling a need I had, that I no longer had, because now I was in love, and lost the desire. I was 22 years old. Even though I was mature for my age, I still could see no advantage to me, in telling her that I had crossdressed, first because it is very embarassing, second because I thought I was not going to dress again. I thought that she fulfilled my needs, and that is why the need to dress had evaporated.

Having said all that, and taken responsibility for all of this, I must say she was not exactly forthcoming with me. And in this regard I beleive many women are also not upfront about how they feel, and don't tell because they fear rejection also. But my wife flat out lied about her sexual desires. And after we got married, we went from having sex four times a day, to we did not consumate our marriage for 4 months. Granted, she was 7 months pregnant at the time, but to not have sex on your wedding night? I mean, we did the night before, and that morning. [edited] Our new diminished sex life consisted of 2-3 times a week. I know from having talked to men all my life that my story is not unique. [edited]

So as you are talking about your crossdressing husbands or SO who failed to tell you about themselves, be honest and ask if you did not give full disclosure also. We all try to put ourselves in the best light when trying to impress a prospective mate. So I say, let he/she who is without sin, cast the first stone. What we all need is not to have it pointed out that we are not perfect, but forgiveness for that fact. I did not get that, and lost the love of my life.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Posted: **Fri Jul 02, 2004 11:27 pm**

Hi Love SO

While I agree honesty is an important ingredient in a marriage, honesty can be used as a very destructive tool.

In a world where none of us can be perfect, why is it important to insist that one be perfect when it comes to honesty? A more important ingredient in my opinion is to realize that there will always be some ugly things about each and every one of us, and to be able to see that (as long as ones heart is in the right place) The better approach may be to commit to live with this person, working through what ever needs to be worked through with out demanding perfection.

Alas the pursuit of a perfect world is but yet another fantasy, that has a hidden cost!!!!

Posted: **Sat Jul 03, 2004 2:53 am**

Hi Elizabeth and Darlene,

Truly sorry Elizabeth if I caused any offence, it was 10001% not intended. Sorry. I'll try to explain something about me. Iv'e always been insecure, my past I suppose, but the line... "nothing to hide, nowhere to run" would apply more to ~D~'s way of thinking. When I met her, she was very much like that and told me that is how many people are. That keeping secrets is a defence against being hurt.
I on the other hand have always had a need to please, that if I'm honest maybe I'll be accepted. In fact, Iv'e many a time been told I'm far too honest for my own good. Time and time again people have hurt me on account of me being honest. (My previous girlfriend did her damndest to get me to commit suicide using information about me, and almost succeeded). When I told ~D~ about myself I didn't even question it, it just came out.
I suppose there is no right or wrong in the end, people just trying to get by. This also would mean there is no perfection, chasing after it would be like a dog chasing it's own tail. If wer'e simply trying to get by and mean no harm to others, using the best of our abilities, we can't ask for more.

Love
Rebecca xxx

Posted: **Sat Jul 03, 2004 4:04 am**

HI Rebecca,

I was not offended at all. I was only pointing out that it is easy to be offended if one is looking to be offended. I believe everyone lies, especially those who claim they don't. For me when I think of an honest person, I think of someone who I beleive is fair. And possesses no ill will towards others. There are many times when not lying could really hurt someones feelings, needlessly. The question isn't did you lie, it is did you lie about something that was important, or something that did not matter in the grander scheme of things. Those who tell us the truth about the important things, we think of as honest. I find this to be an exceptional quality. Perhaps because I lacked it at a critical moment. Failing to tell my wife before she moved in with me, and before we decided to have a child together was just wrong. No matter what my reasons were, or excuses. I lied, by ommiission about something important. But? my wife has used that to control me for years. Now I have let myeself off the hook. If she won't forgive, I have forgiven myself. Time to move on. I think a lot of people here CD'rs and SO'rs need to let themselves off the hook. It is easy to forgive others when you do.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Posted: **Sat Jul 03, 2004 6:25 am**

Hi all,

Cool thread; thanks for starting this, Love.

As I've said elsewhere, aside from my very first long-term relationship (where my GF found out three or four months after our first date), I've never hidden my CDing from my SOs. In fact, all my relationships (hmmm, let's see, here, all...two.. five... all seven of them--two of which lasted seven years each) were with women who knew beforehand of my predilection for occasionally being Christina and my preference for, say, Vanity Fairs, over Joe Boxers. I've just never hidden this about myself when it comes to something so important as to allow a potential partner to decide, in a fully-informed manner, whether or not she wanted to walk a stretch of road with me.

Yes, I realized the risks this entailed. However, I've also always thought that the risks that come with not being myself--and not being truthful to others about myself--are greater.

I was in my mid-20s when I hit the bottom of the crossdressing barrel (despondency, suicidal impulses, anger, rage, bitterness... you know the routine). I felt I had nowhere else to go but to turn toward my true self, so to speak. And I did. And I actually liked what I saw there. And I then came to love what I saw there. And I wanted to share this side of myself with family, friends... life-companions. A wonderful thing happened, then; I understood that, not only did they not love me the less for my openness, they loved me the more for it. Oh, for sure, they thought me strange and not a bit eccentric because of my gender issues, but, you know, they'd always thought I was a bit weird, anyway!

Just as it's difficult to love someone else, freely, truly, and honestly, if you don't first love, and accept, yourself, it's also difficult to be honest with, and authentic toward, others if you aren't so with yourself first. I always keep a classic piece of literature in mind, here (and I'm thinking of having it framed, up on my living-room wall), and that's Shakespeare's Hamlet, Act I, Scene iii:

This above all: to thine ownself be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

I know this is a lofty goal (and, as has been mentioned here, in a perfect world wouldn't represent too much of a problem); however, I also think this kind of goal isn't out of reach when I consider that I do have the power to orchestrate my own reality to a certain extent. In my case--and although I acknowledge the existence in my life of everyday anxieties and ordinary self-doubts--I've chosen to no longer live in fear... fear of others and, especially, fear of myself. I think this is what may allow me to be more open and honest toward others. Yes, I know I will probably be emotionally or psychologically hurt in the future, as I have been in the past, by the disclosure of my crossdressing, but, now, I no longer let that possibility stop me from being who I am. I've rarely encountered intentionally malicious individuals (ignorant yes, malicious no) and I believe the "lottery" of self-disclosure is worth the prize. I'd rather live openly, honestly, truthfully and risk being hurt than live so deeply buried within myself that I'd always wonder what it could've been like to be "me" in this world.

An added bonus to this, is the fact that those on the "receiving end" of my honesty, although they may be uncomfortable with who I am, feel that I respect them enough and trust them enough to want to let them know what it is, in fact, like to be Daniel/Christina in this world. More often than not, they'll reciprocate... allowing me, again, to see the world through another person's eyes, thus broadening the appeal this ol' world holds for me.

And it's made even more appealing by the presence of all you gals in it.

Love,
CJ

Posted: **Sat Jul 03, 2004 7:49 am**

Elizabeth has hit upon a real problem in our society! What with the proliferation of personal injury attorneys and new laws to protect everyone from everything. There are people running amuck out there that are constantly looking for any way to "be offended." It is the unfortunate state of our society. If you can have a realtionship in which both of you can be honest and accepting of each others flaws and history and as the song goes, "It's You and Me Against the World." You have won a major battle. I guess I am getting jaded in my old age as it appears that basically no one cares anymore. It seems that as long as their paycheck doesn't bounce then they just go on their merry way. Did you notice how we all changed after 9/11? People actually seemed friendlier, kinder, nicer, but as of late its back to the same old same old! Cutting people off in traffic, cutting line, no smiles, just a "what's in it for me attitude!"
There is one small universe where those rules don't apply!! That everyone is kind and gentle and caring and it does offer an escape from the world outside your door! Gee, Girls, I am right in the middle of it and it means more to me than most anything else. Just want to say THANKS FOR BEING THERE - WE ARE MAKING A DIFFERENCE IN EACH OTHERS LIVES AND ITS FOR THE BEST!!! GIRL POWER!!
Love,
Deborah

Posted: **Sat Jul 03, 2004 9:29 am**

I believe that CJ's post is 100% right on target.

I would only like to add that I feel that anyone who allows themselves to be hurt in any way by another's honesty is not being honest and open with themselves. It is that person who should be asking themselves "what do I have to hide?".

Honesty can only be used as a weapon against you if you allow it to be. And, if you allow it to be then perhaps you haven't been as honest with yourself as you think you have.

While I agree that we must be tolerant of others' flaws, I believe that we must be true to ourselves and acknowledge our own flaws not only to ourselves but to those we share our lives with. I do not talk about my crossdressing with my parents, brother and sister not because I am hiding it from them. They all know that I wear panties, etc. They just choose not to acknowledge that fact. So, I don't force it on them. I'm not in their face about it and they are not in mine. But neither can they use it as leverage against me. I have acknowledged, to myself, who I am and I don't really care who else finds out.

Those who can accept me for who I am will come to share my life as I will share in theirs. Those who don't, won't. Their loss, not mine.

Posted: **Sat Jul 03, 2004 11:05 am**

Hi girls,

As Stan Laurel once said... "honesty is the best politics".
In the town where I live there's someone known by everybody as 'the local transvestite'. He doesn't make any attempt to pass. Recently he was beat up and told to leave town. My mother said to me "he even likes football, that's strange".
I'm pleased to say he/she is just the same, unphased by it all (at least on the surface).
I haven't the strength yet to follow that example, so in certain situations I am not open.

Deborah, now you know we shouldn't be smug about this forum

.... Oh,... all right then, just a bit... this place and everyone on it is brill !!

Posted: **Sat Jul 03, 2004 12:26 pm**

Hi Kathy,

You stated that; Honesty can only be used as a weapon against you if you allow it to be. And, if you allow it to be then perhaps you haven't been as honest with yourself as you think you have.

Try going to court, having that truth revealed to the whole world that you are a cross-dresser, resulting in you being seen as an unfit father, resulting in not being able to see your kids again, and tell me that I allowed it to happen?

While I feel that your heart is in the right place, Is it possible that you might tend to over state some things, some times?

Posted: **Sat Jul 03, 2004 12:31 pm**

A little over a year ago I came out to my sister in law. It was not something that I had planned. My wife was away that weekend and I had been invited to stay over, have a few beers and shoot some pool with her husband who I am very good friends with and a few of his friends. I got eliminated early and found myself sitting with Margaret, my wife's sister. Anyway she made a comment that Susan always seemed to be hiding something, rather than make up some sort of lie something told me I had to be honest. I began telling her I was a crossdresser, she was stunned but listened to everything I had to say. We talked for quite a while until she said that the beer was talking and I'd regret it in the morning. Later, when everyone had gone home I crashed on the couch. No sooner was I falling asleep when my brother in law came upstairs. He told me that Margaret had told him that she had had the best conversation she'd ever had with me. Really, I said, must have been the beer! He never pried and left it at that.
A few days later I ran into her in the parking lot of the grocery store. She told me she was glad that I was honest with her and I got the tightest hug I'd ever had from her. The point I am trying to make here is that honesty does have it's rewards. Certainy this is not like telling someone's wife who has to deal with it directly but it was a weight off my shoulders. Having to live this lie really bothers me, I would very much like to come out to other family members but the reality of it is that someone will be hurt and they will certainly say they wished I had kept it to myself.

Jenn

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