Crossdressers-Haven.com

Hi all,

Okay, here's a puzzler. It's something that's been bothering me for quite some time now.

I consider myself a feminist. Well, to be honest, more of a humanist with a strong feminist streak. But what can it possibly mean for a crossdresser to say he's a feminist? I look at my photos, for example, and I cannot help but wonder in what way, exactly, is the manner in which I choose to present myself (as a woman) advancing the "cause" of women?

This is an issue that's currently being debated on another forum and it's found its echo here in our own discussions--both past and present--of the nature of femininity and womanhood. Tempers are running hot because it's an issue that hits close to home. Crossdressers believing themselves to be in a better position to understand women nevertheless often dress and behave in ways that GG's wouldn't dream of; conversely, GG's are often frustrated, to say the least, by some (many?) CD's apparent coupling of femininity (or of being a woman) with questions of mere appearance (e.g., with sex appeal). For many GG's, this "clash" often brings to light symptoms of the "Guy In A Dress Syndrome," where, no matter how much a person may look like they're from Venus, it becomes obvious--through behaviour and thought--that they're really from Mars (sorry, John). This is a thorn to many women who are otherwise trying to be very supportive of us.

I consider myself a feminist because I think the social inequities (and iniquities) women face merely on the basis of their sex are ridiculous and antiquated obstacles born of a disintegrating tradition--namely, patriarchy. Aye, and there's the rub! If I truly believe this (and knowing that it's often an uphill battle for women in general to be taken seriously on the basis of something more than just their looks), then for Pete's sake why do I feel the need to highlight what is most stereotypical about the appearance of women in my own self-presentation? I just cannot seem to get my head around this one. There's some very deeply buried psychological mechanism at work here that almost looks as though it were completely unrelated to any ideological or philosophical position I can take as someone who calls himself a feminist. What gives?

I know I'm not a hypocrite. At least, I don't consider myself (or anyone else, here on the forum) a hypocrite. I've been "trying on" all kinds of rationalizations for size: My appearance is a bit of willfully exhibitionistic psychodrama; my appearance is an expression of how I see myself, regardless of my (high) opinion of women; my appearance is a playful wink to quaint stereotypes and has little to do with my behaviour towards, or my relationships with, women; my appearance is a way to bring forth my sexuality, regardless of (or perhaps in order to "spite") my sub-standard libido; etc., etc.

One thing I know my appearance is definitely not is my idea of the perfect woman (for starters, regardless of what Freud may think is going through my mind, I don't believe the perfect woman has a penis). No, there's no such creature as the perfect woman (or the perfect man, for that matter... although I tend to think, in my more somber moods, that there are more imperfect men than there are imperfect women ) As for a perfect woman for me, no, I don't carry that kind of image around in my head either.

So. I'm curious; do any of you (GG or CD) consider yourselves feminists? and, if so, how does that intersect with your being a crossdresser (or with your being partnered to a crossdresser)?

Love,
CJ

Main Entry: fem·i·nism
Pronunciation: 'fe-m&-"ni-z&m
Function: noun
1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes.

Hi CJ.

In as much as it is possible for that to happen. Yes one could classify me as a feminist. However I also realize it is not possible to fully accomplish that. Being as no two people are alike…just which man or woman would one like to be like? Or do we get into attempting to create the perfect person?

No I like to focus instead on being who I was intended to be (by my maker). Imperfect (flawed) being that I am.

We have yet to accomplish equality amoung the male population, let alone equality with the female population, And of course the same could be said of the female population. But I wish you luck with your pursuit.

Love Darlene.

I don't think they are incompatible because I don't think the way one dresses, GG or CD, is an indication of thier feminist ideology.

OK, so some of us dress in sexy clothes. Many of us don't do it to attract men or women, but do it because we like the way it makes us look to ourselves. It is for our own enjoyment. It certainly doesn't mean we don't support equality for women.

To me, the way a woman dresses, if she's dressing in an appealling manner, simply means she is proud of her appearance.

A woman need not dress down to 'show' she is a feminist, be it a liberal, socialist or radical feminist. We have no idea whether a woman dressed down is a feminist at all. Similarly, a woman dressed up may be a leader in the feminist movement.

The addage, "Don't judge a book by it's cover" should apply to everyone, GG or CD. It's what is in the mind that counts.

CJ

I do believe that the two can join but it is hard to say in all minds. As with myself I doubt that they will ever be but I look at others on this forum and yes I can see in the posts that in my mind that they are one and the same in their mind.

Gee

Hi CJ,

I have to agree with DonnaT on this one. You really can't judge a book by it's cover. What really counts is what's on the inside. How we treat women in our day-to-day interactions, regardless of what we're wearing, should be considered, not what our outward, superficial appearance looks like.

However, we all know what they say about first impressions. And, if the first impression a GG gets of crossdressers is a man in an outfit a "lady of the night" wouldn't be seen in, then, I guess I can see where their arguement comes from.

Love,
Kathy

Not only how we treat eachother, but what we wish for each other. Equal pay for equal work! GG's must also realize that most, most crossdressers who venture out in public simply want to blend in, not stand out! Closeted sisters really have no influence on this other than how their SO may respond. What about transvites and female impersonators? Can a crossdresser be a feminist I'd say yes. I think anyone who believes in equality can be a supporter of any group that may not be playing on a level field.
Virginia

Hi CJ,

I voted for "it's not that simple". Not that I am not for political and social equality, I am. And also not that I beleive they are incompatable, I don't.

To me it's like trying to get equality for dogs and cats. I just don't beleive we can ever have a system that is 100% equitable because of the differences between men and women are so great, it is just not possible, IMHO.

I worked in the Electrical contracting business for 22 years. I worked as an apprentice, an electrician, a foreman, a superintendent, and an owner. I have dealt with female aprentices, female electricians, female drafters, female engineers, female project managers and female customers.

There is nothing equal about any of these catagories. I have found, and don't want to get into trouble here, that female apprentices and electricians lack the physical strength to really be effective in the job. They simply can not, with a few exceptions, do the physically demanding work. I just could not send a female to lace a ditch with 4" galvanized ridged conduit. And even the few that might be able to handle it, lack the strength to put them in the ditch and screw them on.

So? from my perspective, asking a person(not just a woman) to do a job I know they can not do, is not fair. This also applies to many small framed men who also lack the physical strength to do such demanding jobs. However, there are other jobs they can do that are relevant, that are necessary. So to me, equality is giving each person work they are capable of doing and excelling at. In this way, each person has an opportunity to shine or fail based on thier own effort.

The other side of the coin is that I have found women engineers, drafters, and customers to be much better organized and likely to meet deadlines than thier male counterparts. They also tend to make less mistakes and also don't see corrections as an attack on thier character. So in the spirit of equality, I have had to use much more diplomacy with my male counterparts to get what I want, because the male ego does get bruised more easily and men always think things will take less time than they actually do.

To recognize the differences and ask men and women to do the things they are good at and not expecting each of the sexes to do things that are out of their expertise or abilities is key.

Carleton(Carly) Fiorina the renowned CEO of HP who stunned the computer world when she pulled off the merger of HP and Compaq, showed that women can not only play in the "mens" world, but could be brilliant while do it. I can not beleive that more companies have not sought the incredible oganizational skills combined with communication skills of women to run thier companies. I firmly beleive this trend will continue.

Am I a feminist? I am not sure. But I do beleive that in a world where physical strength no longer rules the day, it is hard not to say that women should have political and social equality.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Elizabeth, I think you hit all around what we are aiming at! That is "opportunity!" Give the girl the opportunity, damn if she wants to be a fireman or a ditch digger and lay conduit, give her the chance!!! She may not succeed, but she had the opportunity to try and that is all that most of us want, the chance to try!!! I think the next big change will be in the most red-neck sport going = NASCAR! There are no women drivers, Indy cars - yes but not in NASCAR - Jeff Gordon (my favorite) is the closest right now! Opportunity, that is what America offers. Granted it had to be legislated in a lot of cases, but it is there! The opportunity to fail is everyone's right! Go for it!!!
Love,
Virginia

CJ , thanks so much for this wonderful thread. Also Elizabeth, thanks for your very insightful post. I think your tact and ideas about giving men and women tasks which they will accel in was really cool.

Hmm feminist. I think in some ways I am. I certainly have alot of feelings regarding the state of where women not only their jobs but their earnings, and even more global worries. I still think it so sad that so many countries women have less rights than house pets it seems. But the sad fact is that most of these plights don't even get highlighted unless there is a war (involving the US).

I also think it is a sad situation when young girls of today know so little about the struggles our grandmothers and mom's had to go through. How every little right, from contraception to voting had to be fought for tooth and nail. Many young women today take for granted their fortune of being raised in the times we are in. So many celebrities that we worship love to use the phrase 'girl power' but I bet few could tell you who Margaret Sanger is.

Now feminism and crossdressing. Yes there is a small part of probably many women who feel that this is the ultimate male-driven idea of womanhood. IN other words being a woman (or getting as close to being percieved as one) requires the obilgatory make up, dress, pantyhose, heels, and fancy coiffed hair. All it takes are those trappings and va-la! You are a woman now too! Trust me, I don't think that is what many of the guys on here are thinking. Just relaying why so many women who are feminists and are married to cd's feel this internal struggle to get to some mental agreement in our heads.

And I am not going to suger coat things. I cannot tell you of how many websites where cd's moan and groan and complain about how unfeminine women are today and go on and on about us not being as girliy as old Beaver Cleavers Mom. I get tired of hearing it really, and I like crossdressers! What I think is hypocritical is when a crossdresser does complain about the sorry state of womanhood today. How we are all so wrapped up in our jobs and families that we don't have time to be ladylike anymore and how horrible that is. BUT REALLY....(I promise I have a point)....saying those things is crazy because as a crossdresser 'you' go against everything being deemed acceptable by society today. YOU guys are going against all that masculinty. One would think crossdressers would be cheering those non-conformist women to wear their pants proudly! Go against that percived image of 'female' just like you guys go against the percived image of 'male'. Don't be mad when you see a tom-girl, be glad! When you see a woman with a very short hair cut tell her she looks awesome! I am being a bit overboard... but I think the more people 'rebel' against what is considered 'normal', than normal won't be around too much longer. There won't be this yardstick we are all trying to measure ourselves againt. I won't be bummed because i wear a plus size. You won't be bummed because your adams apple makes you look 'less' femine. Because the measure of feminine will not be this rigid idea.

Okay, babbeling now...but I think crossdressing and feminism can co-exsist. I think the more we blur gender/social/sexual lines the more easier it will be for every one of us to live happy.

One last thing. I stopped agreeing with women about 8 years ago on what 'I' found sexy. I started saying more openly that I liked feminine guys, maybe not that bluntly, but saying I liked when guys had little or no body hair, saying I liked when guys had their ears pierced, ect. I found at first some women would be wanting to understand how a straight woman could find a 'feminine' guy attractive. Becuase the 'norm' is macho/hairy/loud/ect ect. But the interesting thing is I would find later some women in private and almost embarrased would say how they liked a particular singer or movie star or even person we all knew who maybe was considered a bit 'feminine' as well. But would have never said it for fear of being considered odd. I know this may or may nto help the cding cause, but what it shows me is that even among females we all desire things which are not aceptable to our peers or society right now. And it almost seems like maybe these desires were always in us but maybe we were afraid to speak up. I mean, David Bowie, had a HUGE fanbase in like 1970 of females and he was as girly looking as they come. I think this is probably better left for another post.....but I hope that all made some sense...

ack its late...
hugs
kathyin canada

CJ - Nice thread. And such a nice touch with words, too...

I think that you are running into the conflict many of us gg's felt when, way back when in the olden days of early Women's Lib - it became apparent that we could be feminists or we could be feminine, but not both.

Now, the reason for that philosophy, early on, was to break the mindset of being the little woman in the office, the cute little plaything, etc. Ergo the masculine cut of women's power suits, etc., etc.

Thankfully, that has now been about 30 years ago (really???) and I, at least, have come to the conclusion that being feminine and feminist are not at all at odds. I finally came to the conclusion that I like being with men and that there is nothing submissive or neglible or un-feminist about that. Nor does it reflect upon my ability to do a job or to vote...

Therefore, when I dress to please someone other than myself, it is likely to be some guy I have my sights set on. duh...I certainly don't dress to turn him *off*...

Or I dress up because I like the way it makes me feel. Liking men and liking to look good for them is not anti-feminism. In fact, I think that true feminism (and true masculinism) is about noting that women and men both offer things to society. Many of those things (the ability to be an engineer or to be a fashion designer, for instance) are things that either gender can do, and certainly should be encouraged to do so. There are, however, certain traits that are more common in women and ones that are more common in men and while every man and every woman need not possess or exhibit those traits, somebody needs to because society needs those traits amongst us. Humanism, therefore, is about not pigeon holing what someone will do based upon their gender.

Where I trip over it is this - if I'm all that big a feminist, why the hell does it feel like ya'll are in *my* territory when you pull on a pair of thigh highs... No answer for that other than that gut emotion and logic do not function on the same wave length.

As for why some men choose to dress in a, well, for lack of a better word, flashy, sexy manner, I can only guess. I guess that's because they are dressing as their inner woman feels, or wants to feel. Honey, my inner woman feels like wearing that stuff too, but my outer woman ain't built for it no more!

I mentioned to my guy that I really was jealous because he wears a size 6 (ARGGH!) and has these cute little tennis skirts and stuff - I said something about how I used to wear those when I was 15, but I would look ridiculous in them now. He said, "*I* look ridiculous in them, unless you're into that." He may have a point. If you are going to be a male who wears women's clothes, then you might as well wear the women's clothes that you want to.

I truly do not think that how you choose to dress en femme (or, for that matter how I choose to dress en femme) is going to kill the feminist movement. Nor do I think that when I wear ruffles or lace, or a low plunging neckline, or when you do, that we are saying women are only useful for sex. And when I act coy, or when you act coy, we still aren't saying that, any more than when I am decisive or you are decisive, we are saying that men are better at decision making.

OTOH, I doubt seriously that any gg is going to take you seriously if you stand there in your party clothes saying that you are doing it to honor women...

BTW, my guy raised two daughters by himself - he specifically raised them to be feminists, to not *need* a man to take care of them - but he dresses like a 17 year old party favor. No, the two are not at odds....

-georgia (so)

Georgia (SO) and Kathy (SO) Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! for being there for us! I will simply say this and I believe it was Georgia who mentioned it, I (Virginia) do not dress to "honor women!" They honor themselves just by being!!! Virginia, like most GG''s goes to the closet and stares at the selection of clothing and admonishes herself "Damn. I have nothing to wear!" Then she makes a selection based upon the available choices, and where she is off to and after dressing looks in the mirror and in most cases says, " Not bad, girl, not bad!!" Grabs her purse and is off to the races!Is it an honor to women to have men emulate their appearance? some say yes some say no! I say, I don't care! I see my self as an ambassador for my sisters, I try and dress appropriate for the situation I will be in, serving as hostess for our support group meeting; going to a party, going to a dance club, out to eat, a movie. All require a different mode of appearance. Am I concerned about whether I am read that the GG that perhaps reads me is thinging "well he is trying to honor me!" I don't care, Virginia is out to have a good time and what others think well that is up to them!
As for GG's appearances in public - well I think you have to admit it has degenerated from previous times! I may get read, but at least I appear to be trying to look nice, I am sorry, but some of the GG's I see it is like they are actually trying to look like slobs!!! Overweight, in jeans that are so tight I shutter to think not only how she packed all that fat in them, but how will she ever get out of them. A top that appears to need to be burned as washing is too good for it and hair that has not been washed or kept for days and no make-up, zits and all! It is like this has become the norm and for GG's to 'blend-in" with their sisters they have to dress down to that level of appearance or they get rediculed for "over dressing!" It may be different where you are, but I walk the malls here and that is what I see as the standard not the exception. I know some of us can not or don't want to help our weight problem, but that does not excuse how we choose to attempt to cover it or any more, not cover it up!
Am I being too critical of others appearance? Yes, I guess so, but 300 pounds of female packed into a size 8 pair of jeans with a much to small sweat shirt and her belly hanging over the waist and a naval ring and well I am sorry it ain't feminine! She may well be a feminist and God Bless her for that, but she ain't feminine in appearance!
Just one CD'ers opinion!
Love ya and thanks again for being part of our world!
Virginia

Hi CJ--
I came down on the side of the meaningless. A poll I read said that younger women may support all the basic ideas of feminism, but do not want the label--they do not want to call themselves feminists, as they feel that the name has become a stereotype. This has probably been five years ago now--I have no link to it. I feel much the same way. I may support the ideas in my own way, but I can't take the label.

I have my own agenda when it comes to dressing, and it's like a tool--it's the best one I've found for the job I'm trying to do. Call it extreme self-expression, if you will. I support that goal for everyone, too, whether they're men or women. So my dressing doesn't necessarily have that much to do with one gender, even if I'm using the clothes of one gender to do it. Women sense this, and I'm not surprised that they don't necessarily feel complimented by it. I said in another post that they may like me personally, but that doesn't mean they like the mode that I've adopted.

But more to the point: I wouldn't call myself an African-American activist, even if I support civil rights, and actively work for them. I know there has been debate about whether men (of any kind, not just CDs) can be considered feminists. If a man wants to call himself a feminist, I have no problem with it, but it's not a given that other people will buy that.

If even women themselves aren't altogether comfortable with the name, I know for sure that I wouldn't be comfortable with it. Whatever I'm doing supports some parts of feminism, but can't really be identified with it.

Hi all,

Cool! Thansks for the great replies, all!

Kathy,

I think you're absolutely right; we crossdressers should, in fact, embrace non-conformity. But this is, exactly, what I have some trouble getting my head around... we are, in a way, non-conformists who are, it seems, in search of a conformity that is alien to our native sex. In effect, and by all appearances, we are men who dress like women in a way very few women dress. It's like there's a short-circuit somewhere, or gunk in the cogworks. I recognize it within myself as well (to my amusement more than to my shame or horror, I have to say).

The reason I'm wondering if crossdressing and feminism are compatible is that traditional (First Wave) feminists abhor the "objectification" of women that subtends dressing with sex appeal in mind (the short skirt, the high heel, the crimson lip gloss, etc.). It goes further: radical feminists--and I know this from my own personal experience--often see male-to-female transgender culture as just another attempt by men to encroach upon the "territory" of genetic women (see, for example, Janice Raymond's The Transsexual Empire). I'm scratching my head on this one because I have, by nature, genuine sympathies for the aspirations of women (in other words, I identify) but, at the same time, I have a profoundly normative and quite sterotypical idea of what women look like that's anchored very deeply in my psyche. I can't shake this image loose, it seems. (Of course, in my day-to-day relations with women, that image doesn't much affect how I relate to them; I relate to people on the basis of who they are, not on what they look like. But still.)

Thanks so much for your contribution, Kathy! As I read your post (and those of other GG's), I realize how much I miss the feminine voice on this forum (uh, no offense to my sisters, here).

Georgia,

Thanks for the compliment. You're quite an accomplished wordsmith yourself, you know! Such a pleasure it is to be understood as much as we can hope to be and to understand as much as we can hope to because of a thought well-expressed! Still, I've found that every voice here expresses what it needs to in its very own way. Another example of beauty in diversity. Some voices are like bricks being laid (my own, for example), some are like notes played on a tenor saxophone or a twangy "git-tar," some are like the wind soughing through the willows. I love these voices. All these voices.

But to your point. I agree with you, as well. The current "Second Wave" of feminism (call it a post-"Backlash" feminism, if you will) has introduced a certain, I guess, maturity, in the way women (and men, of course) interpret (and decrypt?) male-female relations. If, truly, there's no problem in being a feminine feminist woman, then, surely, being a feminist male--a feminist, crossdressing male, to boot!--cannot be much of a problem either? Or can it? You say: Humanism, therefore, is about not pigeon holing what someone will do based upon their gender. Yes, as a humanist, I totally agree. But, sadly, it's too often been my experience that both feminists and masculinists (think, "Iron John," here) have their sights set on ideals that share but little with a traditionally humanistic outlook. Feminists of either sex often do pigeonhole people based upon their sex (and, often, upon their gender, as well). So do masculinists. As a "humanist-with-a-strong-feminist-streak," I recognize this kind of pigeonholing tendency within myself, too. I'm not proud of it but it doesn't bother me too much. Except when it comes to my crossdressing. If I say I sympathize with women's aspirations, why does it seem as though I try, as a crossdresser, to focus on appearance and (my own quaint notion of) beauty? Why not just emulate, and aspire to the same kinds of achievements as, women I have such tremendous respect for while, at the same time, just saying "to hell with the clothes and the makeup! that's not where it's happening!" What gives? Alas! I'm a mystery to myself. No matter how deeply I dig, "I know not wherefore I do what I do." It's just not accessible to me. Not yet, anyway. Maybe never. But laying it all out like this might just be a step in the right direction.

Anita,

I hear you, and you raise a valid objection. It mirrors Georgia's mention of humanism and pigeonholing above. And, as I said, I agree with that. I also agree that supporting civil rights, and actively working for the African-American community in this regard will not make an African-American of you, any more than a feminist man is a woman. But that wasn't my point. Imagine this: for deeply-rooted psychological reasons, you feel this compulsion, this need, to present as an African-American; to change the colour of your skin; to court the society of African-Americans; eventually (not as a logical outcome but just because of who you are), to become a civil rights activist. If, all the while (and, again, for deeply-rooted psychological reasons), you hold fast to stereotypical and more or less pejorative ideas about what it means to be an African-American, what then? What can this possibly mean? And how can you reconcile your self-presentation with your loftiest ideals? This is what I'm trying to figure out. It ain't easy. Like Georgia (and, if the poll can be believed, a few others here, as well), I don't think feminism and crossdressing are incompatible. Just, please, don't ask me to defend that assertion.

Love,
CJ

Hi CJ,

I don't see myself as a feminist, pro-feminism yes, but I don't believe being born a genetic male I can be a feminist, even for all the steps I've taken to deny my maleness. I am of the school which believes only women can be feminists.

I don't dress to conform with anyone elses' ideas, I'm just myself as I'm comfortable with, but having said that, when I'm on the public arena I always present as a conservative mature woman does and dress for the occaison and for the nature of the time and place. Even though many of my ideas may be radical to sections of the community I never try to draw attention to myself by my mode of dress.

Kind Regards,

Sally.

Hi,

I knew if I just shushed long enough someone would say something I agreed with better than I could have said it from scratch. I feel the exact same way as Sally just stated.

Thank you Sally!!!

Beauty