Crossdressers-Haven.com

My brain just got working this morning after looking at some posts and my heart somehow got involved.

No matter if you are an SO or a CD'r, this can be a difficult life. The CD'r may have been hiding for years or may still be hiding, the SO may feel like her man isn't the man she thought she married. Or she may have known ahead of time but that doesn't necessarily make it any easier.

Then throw in the fact that "change" is inevitable and one of the true facts of life and lookout. Nothing ever stays the same, nor do people. There are some CD'rs who find out they want or need "more". That begins a new struggle for them as well as their SO. That can affect the Cdr's self-esteem, mental health status, livlihood, etc... and as for the SO, well she may not be able to handle "more", if she's lasted this long.

Some CD'rs don't want anyone to know but their SO. Then the SO is left to carry this huge secret around that can at times become burdensome and she essentially is put in the closet next to her CDr. I know that my own husband hates that I'm talking to other's because he is so afraid someone will find out who he is. Regardless is I need the support or not.

Then there's the element of having kids in the house and finding time to dress. Do we let the kids in on it? Or continue to hide? Another difficult quandry. If the CD'r dresses at home, are the neighbors going to see him? You have no idea how many SO's worry about this. One of the reasons my husband has permission to go elsewhere to dress. No worries about the kids or the neighbors. But, what happens when they find his very large pumps in our closet?? How do I explain? Or do I have him explain as their stepfather?

And what about the CD'r realizing that he's not really merely a CD'r at all? Not only would this be something that might be difficult for him to deal with but imagine now how the SO feels. Some might feel like there's a death in the family, like her dreams of having married her prince charming are gone, like life will never be the same again. Some might become suicidal and the TG mate right along side her. Some may stand by their man in friendship, other's may have to get as far away from him as she can.

I guess my point is that no matter what side of the fence you are on or what role you play, being a part of a relationship with a CD/TG/TS individual can be a difficult way of life.

Don't get me wrong, I realize that it doesn't always turn out in a negative way. I'm also not say that it HAS to be a difficult way of life. What I am saying is that it CAN be. Personally, I have not heard of many marriages that have sustained transition. I also do not know of many that have survived without compassion for how each other might feel. If you can't put yourself in your SO's shoes no matter which role you are in, it's going to be a long bumpy road. If there is no compromise or acceptance the same applies.

And finally. As much as we might want for someone else to get help, everyone has their own path to take in dealing with their own issues. Unfortunately you can't choose it for them. All we can do is make suggestions and love them while they take the journey.

Kay(SO)

Kay,
Don't know if you or the other SO's will ever read this, but with the depth of the threads that I have participated in this week, my brain is pretty much scrambled right now. I will say this -- some of us who feel that we have moved beyond the mear desire to dress and try and express our selves in how we perceive women, i.e., kindess toward others, gentleness in our mannerisms, movement and gestures, empathy, that is being able to show our emotions, (hell, I am getting to the point I will cry just seeing a bird fly by); listening = caring actually listening to what people say and caring about what they say. love, being able to say it to show it,to express it! Yeah, we can learn to do that and like doing it - I do!
but the rub !!!
How in the hell you GG's process thought to an action is absolutely, positively beyond any males' ability to comprehend or understand! Oh, in a lot of instances it is a beautiful thing to watch, but how you get from point A to point B in your thought process - we will probably never understand - thus the major dofference in the sexes!
I still love all of you though - your beautiful!!
Virginia

Hi Kay,

Some CD'rs don't want anyone to know but their SO. Then the SO is left to carry this huge secret around that can at times become burdensome and she essentially is put in the closet next to her CDr.

That is probably one the most unfair things about this situation. An (SO) needs to realize that there are consequences to making a decision to be partnered with a closeted CDer, this being one of them.

No easy answers.

Love Darlene.

There is definitely a lot to deal with on both sides, and it would seem that the CDs have it easier since we've dealt with it longer. However, once an SO enters the picture it is almost like starting over with regard to telling, hiding, etc. Then we add to that (hopefully) our SO's feelings and desires.

If both sides cannot compromise, then the relationship may be doomed to failure.

But there are some issues that need not be an issue at all. Take, for example, keeping it from the neighbors. Why? If the CD is not embarrassed by his CDing, and the SO shows support and love for him, what's a neighbor going to say. For that matter, what does it matter what the neighbor might say. It's your life, not theirs. If they are friends they will usually remain friends, especially if you can explain what CDing is all about. The issue is usually one of embarrassment, and if you can overcome that, then you'll feel much better, less on edge.

I know that the more people that now know about me, such as my immediate family, the more my wife has relaxed, felt less on edge. She now feels less burdoned. That doesn't mean she still doesn't have problems with my dressing, or is more open to me being more open, but if she could let go of the fears of others finding out, I think she would find it much easier to deal with. But I know my wife has always had a problem with worrying about what others think. Not much I can do about it except respect her wishes, but also keep talking about it to try to ease her worries.

I know several couples that really enjoy the CD experience because 'they' are not closeted anymore. Of course, the SO's in these relationships have really learned to accept that this is who he is, have not lost any love or respect for their CDing partner, and could give a rats hind end about what others may think. And in some, it was the SO that got the CD to overcome his fears and get out of the closet.

I reckon we all have our fears, but they can be overcome, either by taking small steps to rid ourselves of them, or just saying, to heck with it and ignoring them. Next thing you know you're saying, what was I so worried about.

Excellent posts!! You all really seemed to grasp what my thoughts were and added in your own stuff! This is what I was hoping would happen. I am on new meds and can't seem to turn my brain off from all of this deep thinking! Keep em' coming. And thank you ladies.

Kay(SO)

You asked for more Kay,

This just arrived in my inbox. I think it fits this situation.

"We will never be at peace with the nations next to us
Until we are at peace with the person who sleeps next to us."
"Like wise we will never be at peace with the person who sleeps next to us
Until we can be at peace with the person we are."

Love,
Darlene.

Darlene,

I love that. Thanks for sharing it! Very profound and true, true, true!

Kay

Hi Kay,

Yes, I agree with you that it's a difficult way of life and let me begin by saying if it were within my power to wind back the clock and change it then I surely would. I would never ever make a conscious choice to follow this way of life. It's been debated many times, even though I have strong suspicions, backed up to some degree by medical scientific studies, I still can't say 100% why I'm like I am or have the need to do the things I do in regards to a lifetime of fighting my maleness.

I know I've said over and over that people need to do what makes them happy, but of course there are many different scenarios which we can apply to individual situations. This may take some following, but what I do does make me happy, but, it's a secondary happiness if I can put it that way. From experiencing all the stress, unhappiness and tension etc which I've caused from my early childhood then I can only say, that on more than one front it's grossly unfair that anyone should be made this way. I know that's a controversial statement to make but I stand by it and even though I'm well aware that much of life (read people) is unfair and that's just how it is, I do believe that with compassion, compromise and balance we can all find that level where it's possible to 'make the best of the situation' given the fact each individual situation has it's own unique finer points.

What I'm saying in effect is that given the choice, I believe it would have been wonderful to have been born one way or the other and not somewhere in between. I know life would have been much more happier, simple and easier to cope with if I'd been born without male characteristics and a desire within to be female, I would have been much more naturally happier without my complex making, but I'm stuck with it and have been for as long as I can remember, and all the times throughout my life where I tried to make it go away all failed, but what is really the biggest regret I have is how I've effected and constrained the lives of those who I love and love me dearly.

I think it's fine on one hand to say that we should ignore what other people or our neighbours say or think, it's our life and nothing to do with them, but, sometimes it's not as simple as that. Children grow up with neighbours children and form bonds and friendships, wives form friendships with neighbours wives and there are times when they need each other to talk with, and families living in a neighbourhood sometimes need each other in times of illness, accident or stressful situations. It could be so easy for all this to be blown away by my actions and then it's not me who suffers the most, it's my family who would have to bear the brunt of it all for no fault of their own. I could handle the angst which may be forthcoming but should they be subjected to it? I don't believe so. All this is one of the major reasons why I'm not public where I live. Those who should know about me do, those who don't need to know don't know and it's worked really well for a long time. My brother and sisters also know about me but they never speak of it outside our family.
There are times when I've moved around in our community and people are not aware of who I am or that I'm a male and that suits my purpose and needs, but there are many places away from my home area where I'm very public and that works well for myself and those people, but I believe it's a situation of 'choosing your ground carefully'.

I've said this before and the sitation is still the same, if my situation was different I would complete the last step of my transition, but even though I have the permission of medics and psycs, I wouldn't know if it was right or not until after the event, nobody does. I've had some fairly mean things said to me by my peers for stopping my progress to the point it's at, but nobody else really knows the full extent of how an individual is hurting and how one person reacts to deal with that hurt varies from how another person handles it, and this is where many people make a mistake by believing that what applies to them applies to everyone. I'm just not willing to put my family situation at risk as I know the extreme hurt we would all suffer if it were to break up, and the odds of that happening on completion of transition are not in our favour. Just as I think there are things in life we do which brings a 'secondary happiness', I believe there are decisions we can make in life which will bring a 'secondary hurt' to us but prevent major hurt to others. Life is all about choice

I know that some people can make decisions with the good of themselves in mind and do things without having much regard for the feelings of others, but many of us don't conform to that way of thinking because of our deep affection and feelings for those who love us. An example is this. I have two daughters, both of whom will marry next year. They are aware of my situation but their intended hubbies aren't. That's a situation of potential catastrophic results in the making. I can just imagine me walking them down the aisle as Sally or Sally making the responding speech to the toasting of the brides parents. Heaven forbid, which one is the mother? Just imagine the grooms family. Wowwwwwwieeeeeeeee. Should I subject my daughters to this? I believe not.

Sometimes it's important that we humans learn to face the truth and avoid fooling ourselves and others. Yet, there seems to be powerful basic human needs to "look good," to appear competent, to be right, and to be in control, but life is all about choice and sometimes it's those choices we may or may not make which make or break our family's quality of life. Some people may not agree with the choices we make at times, but there are times when it's not as simple as who's right or wrong, it's more important that other peoples happiness and quality of life come first. Sometimes it's ok for everyone to put themself first but there are also times when we have to take a step back.

You're quite correct when you say that post transition, the chances of a marriage staying intact is practically nil, and that's the main reason why I took the decision to keep my transition at a stage where my family could cope with it. My wife and daughters handle it so much better than our son does, although he's so much better now that he knows he's not 'losing his father' as he's always seen me. I think to a degree it's brought us together as a family in a way which may not have happened in different circumstances. We all share the same secret to a degree and even though at times it weighs on the individual more so than other times in given situations, the fact that everyone is open and honest and can say what they feel, then the situation rarely arises where there is stress in the air which we can't cope with. Family members all supporting each other in times of need is paramount, not just in these circumstances, but in life overall.

I believe that as bad as it sometimes gets for people like myself, the real victims of it all are our wives and children. They don't have an inner knowledge of how we feel and the drive we experience to satisfy 'her' and they can't understand why their life has to be burdened with it when their friends and other family members are free of it (whether that's a fact or not we never know, who knows what's going on behind closed doors).

When you said, " If you can't put yourself in your SO's shoes no matter which role you are in, it's going to be a long bumpy road." therein you hit the nail on the head. I believe we need to go to them, it's not their place to have to come to us, so to speak.
I look at my wife and the love I feel for her now is as vivid as it was before we married. At times I get a sense of despair and regret for the constrictions she's put on her life to cope with me and I know she's the innocent victim and who's paid the biggest price, but being the woman she is she never complains, she does make her compromises loud and clear, but all the time she's loving, supportive and as perfect a wife and mother I could ever wish for. I can't express it deeply enough of what I owe her. Yes, you're correct in saying that things never stay the same, I wish they did in some instances, but they don't. Life would have been so much more simple if it had stayed just about the clothes, but where some of us are taken I know only too well it can become a life threatening situation if 'she' is completely ignored and repressed, but the really sad thing is no matter how many words we use, we'll never ever be able to make anyone else understand how it is, no matter how much we love them or they love us.

You said, " I guess my point is that no matter what side of the fence you are on or what role you play, being a part of a relationship with a CD/TG/TS individual can be a difficult way of life. "
I agree with you amd empathise with you. What I can say though is this. After all the difficulties and hurt which we've experienced throughout the journey, the place we've arrived at finally has brought us extremely close together, cemented and strengthened our family ties, and our love and devotion for each other has passed every possible test it's been put to, and for all that I am truely thankful to the extent words wouldn't do it justice, and I'm not prepared to put all that at risk, no matter how hard I have to struggle with ' her ' at times.

These are just all my personal opinions and thoughts from some of my personal life's experiences, and by no means are intended to apply to, or even suggested they should apply to anyone else.

Kind Regards,

Sally.

Sally,

What a beautiful post. I am so glad that you shared. This has to be one of the best I've seen since I've been here and I'm moved and saving this one. I will probably read it several times as it says so much. Profound, honest, intimate and again I thank you immensely.

Kay(SO)

Hi Sally,

That was a phenomenal post!

I found this link to the wife of a TS.

http://www.transfamily.org/brave.htm

I only know a small population of the TS community, but I know people who have just transitioned and their wives are supportive now (usually when a lot of breakups happen) and two who have been married over 5 years after their transition. I'd prefer to say it's not close to nil because just like CD'ing support sites were hard to find on the web years ago, there are even fewer SO support sites for women who are married to TS's. So I'd say finding a couple with this kind of union is just as rare as finding true love.

I'll be interested to hear what people think about what she posted. I thought it was so honest and open it hurt.

Kay, if this link I posted hi-jacks your thread, just tell me and I'll move it to it's own thread.

Beauty

Hi Kay,

You've touched on a subject very close to my heart with this. Sometimes it's a bit difficult to lay your soul bare for the world to see, but from my experiences if it helps just one person to fit that missing piece into the puzzle, or give them a starting point to find their way, or help ease the trepidation, then it's worthwhile.
Kay, I apologise if I've taken your thread off on a tangent you didn't intend.

Beauty, I agree with you that it's not an absolute that each and every wife walks away at some time post transition, but from my experiences the odds are not in favour of the couple staying together. I realise that right across the board there's under a 50% chance of any marriage going the distance, but from the hundreds of TS's I've come in contact with over the years I only personally know one couple who are still together after several years post transition completion, and that couple are both in their seventies and indeed the transitioner was over 70 when she had her op.

The figures are impossible to collate and verify because many of those M/F's who complete transition just merge into everyday life and prefer to remain inconspicuous so they can get on living the life they always desired. I've had it said to me on more than one occaison by people who have completed their transition that they wish to divorce themselves completely from their past and look forward, never back, and that's the main reason they prefer to live as an inconspicuous female, even if they pack up their whole family and move to parts where they're not known. I do however know of many instances where a couple have remained good friends post transition and indeed still interact with each other and their family.

It's a very, very fragile situation and I can say with all honesty that we may present a smiling face most of the time but that doesn't necessarily correspond with what's going on below the surface at any given time, some days are better than others. But some things you have to learn to cope with for the sake of others, because, women go into a marriage with certain expectations which I believe should be honoured as much as possible, even though things are constantly changing in our day to day lives. Children are brought into the world without any say in the matter and innocents have rights and I believe there are obligations which have to be met if we choose to have children. It's so easy to jump aboard the 'runaway train' and so hard to get off it at the pre-designated point if one lets it gain control. Anyway I don't want to get too deep into it but these are just a follow on to some of my original thoughts.

I know that right around the world there are so many people who are in that intermediate place or condition between two extremes, but I can only implore them to take it slowly, take those baby steps we talk of, consult and talk with those around you because if we keep it hidden it only festers and we finish up not knowing if we're 'Arthur or Martha' so to speak, and our trepidation radiates to those around us who love us, and by walking alone with what's going on inside us we'll never solve anything. One thing people should always bear in mind is that even if anyone turns out to be genuine TS it's still not mandatory that they complete transition, there are always other options no matter what some of our peers may say, we're all different.

One fact we do know is that from all the people who from time to time gather the idea that they are a TS, it turns out in the final mix that they're not, it's so easy to get confused and let it take control. If this happens people not only cause themselves unnecessary and unwanted stress it also translates to those around them who are the innocent parties, and it's also possible we don't see this until some damage has alrady been done. Sometimes we need the help of others to find the truth and I know it can take a lot of courage to step up and reveal what's going on inside us, but sometimes for the sake of peace, quality of life and family unity it's the only way. We have a limited life span and we should make that time as enjoyable and productive as we possibly can, for our sake and for the sake of those who matter most to us.

Difficult way of life? You betcha, but it has it's side too.

Kind Regards,

Sally.

Well Sally, you have kept me up well past my bedtime, but I would do much more just to have the opportunity to read what you write. My only comment would be "To Love Ah! perchace to dream!" Yes, I have wondered what if, but I guess I am too much of a realist. Since Virginia first manifest herself and in my initial studies of "what the hell is gong on with me?" I found this site and was told, "Girl, you probably have the gift and just so you know, IT AIN'T GONNA GO AWAY!" I accepted it and my final statement is "World!!!!!! here she be, meet Virginia, not knowing her is your loss!"
Yes, it is a difficult life style, but I would not trade it (or her) for anything else!
God, I love to read your posts!!!!!!
Love,
Virginia

Hi all,

Wow! Great thread! Sally, Kay, and everyone else here... most excellent reading! Thanks.

Jean-Paul Sartre once said: L'enfer, c'est les autres. ("Hell is other people.") Hard enough it is to discover our own authentic being; harder it is when the desires and needs of others enter the picture.

Yes, it's a difficult way of life. But I'll say this: given every possible outcome, every possible shape our existence can take (from everything that can go horribly awry to everything we dare not even dream can happen), just living, by itself, can be a difficult way of life.

Although it may very well be that "God is in the details," pulling back once in a while in order to get a sense of the deep beauty of the painting or the sculpture or the play that is our little life (one "rounded with a sleep") often gives us the strength required to deal with the slings and arrows of our own, at times very personal, outrageous fortune.

Never, in the entire history of the universe, has there existed an entity exactly as I am (and exactly as you are, or you, and you, and you over there) and never will there be again. Even in my darkest hours, I never let this wisdom stray too far from me. And it helps me carry my load. Not with a string of groans but with a joy that sometimes borders on bliss.

Yes, it's a difficult way of life. But I'd want no other. While it may be true that "what doesn't kill me only makes me stronger," I also believe that what I've succeeded in coming to grips with wasn't meant to kill me. Or my love of life... however difficult that life may be.

Love,
CJ

Hi,

I don't disagree that the amount of relationships that last after transition are below 50%. In fact, I wonder if it's even 25%. I just wanted to say it wasn't close to nil.

Personally, I feel in my own situation that if I were to say, "I'm'a changin'" My wife would be ok with it for a while, but I don't think she'd be able to deal with it in the long run. That's why I posted that link. It's not a story of super support for a TS person. She says things that even CD spouses can identify with that are really heavy. The good days are one thing, but the bad days.. oy' the bad days.

I apologize for the confusion.

Beauty

Beauty,

There are parts of that story that I cut and pasted as they do relate to many SO's I know that are with CD'rs not TS who want to transition. An example would be: where she talks about finding yourself in a role you never expected to be in, How if you go out together other's look at you and think you are a lesbian if you are affectionate with your husband, how suddenly there are two sets of makeup and jewelry in the house and that your clothing bills have skyrocketed due to repression that is now out and CDing supported, also being in bed with your man who has decided to shave or remove all of his body hair, when he used to look like an ape which you found rather sexy while he hated it, and finally, the revision of your dream of happily ever after. Not that you can't or don't continue to have the dream but it's different now. Instead of the white knight on the steed you've got the princess in the tower and you are the "guy" who is supposed to be saving her.

I thank you for posting that link because this is what I've been writing about over and again. I know that I can completely relate to the above and my husband has no inclination to transition. I went through all of it from experiencing Cding.

This really has been a great thread and I appreciate everyone's input.

Kay(SO)