Crossdressers-Haven.com

Hi all,

An interesting sidetrack in Gardenia's thread on jealousy is the discussion on the "images" we have of the sexes, i.e., of what men and women "should" look like. This subject is endlessly fascinating to me and I think it's important enough to merit its own thread.

As a male who doesn't want to look like what a man "should" look like, I've often pondered this matter of "ideal" appearance. One of the first things that popped into my head when I first started examining this issue, oh! so many years ago, is this: who gets to decide what a woman (or a man) is "supposed" to look like? Is there some standard, some canon of femininity (or masculinity) that all people refer to? I used to think so.

When I was a kid, all the models in the Sears catalog looked pretty much the same to me. I used to leaf through my mother's Cosmopolitans and Vogues. So this was what women are supposed to look like, then (I thought at the time). Right on the heels of that thought was this: it's a good thing I've got access to these magazines because, honestly, I know zero women that look like the ones in the magazines (except my own mother, of course! ). If it weren't for Vogue, Glamour, Cosmopolitan, et al., where I would be? I wouldn't know what a woman is supposed to look like.

I guess I'm a little wiser today. What I find difficult is that there are still so many people caught up in the harmful belief that women are "supposed" to look like the women in the fashion, advertising, and entertainment industries (three industries, by the way, that exist to sell the same thing: illusions--illusions of beauty, illusions of need, illusions of happiness... because the selling of these illusions generates tremendous amounts of cash). Although women are the usual targets/victims, men are as caught up in this belief (of women being supposed to look like magazine models) as are women themselves. Men, too, come to think that women "should" look a certain way and, though the trend is more recent, men are also starting to have to look a certain way (if the proliferation of men's "health"--really, beauty--magazines is any sign).

The plain truth is, the fashion, advertising, and entertainment industries do not try to depict what is real but, rather, what is ideal. It's too bad because the flesh and blood people we rub elbows with on a daily basis are not ideal, they're real. And how much more satisfying is that! I cannot ever meet a woman who lives only in my head (i.e., in the pages of a magazine, for instance). The women I do encounter in my life rarely meet the standards set by the illusion peddlers nor do they even aspire to meet those standards, knowing full well as they do that those standards are actually unattainable for the regular Jane in the street (in the same way that not every guy is Johnny Depp or what have you).

The big question, for me, is this: if what I've been saying is true (and, for me, it is) then why in the world am I trying, in my crossdressing, to emulate the women I see in the magazines instead of the women I see in my ordinary life??? It's quite a puzzler for me, I swear. I've come up with a few possibilities. One is that I'm simply unsophisticated in my tastes. Call this my being a victim of the "Tart/Hooker/Supermodel/Adolescent Girl Syndrome." This can be remedied with a little patient help from those of my "real yet ordinary life" women friends in whose judgment and good fashion sense I trust. Another possibility is that, in my need to express a certain, for a male, taboo, femininity (for whatever psychological or emotional reasons), I find I must exaggerate and accentuate whatever attribute or characteristic I have that is anything but male. I do this through costume, through modification of my body (to a certain extent, anyway), through a shift in behaviour, etc., etc. Call this my being a victim of the "All Or Nothing Sexual Stereotype Trap." This can be remedied by some "mental reprogramming" on my part that would allow me to live comfortably in a certain gray zone where I could season my behaviour and appearance with a dash of androgyny here and a sprinkling of gender ambiguity there without feeling that I'm violating any desire of mine to remain true to myself. It'll be work, though. Another possibility (and the one I like best) is that I see myself as a gender gadfly. Meaning, someone who "performs" gender in an outrageous fashion so as to make people question their assumptions about gender itself (the best examples of this are, first, drag queens and, second, fashion models--think about it: the two have much more in common than you'd suppose). Put simply: I'm a person who's born with a set of genitals that will generally prevent people from believing (or even allowing) that I in fact feel and think the way I do so that I must do what I can to convince people that a person born with a particular set of genitals isn't condemned to behave in a particular way and only in that way. Why is it important for me to convince people of this? Because too many people are needlessly--and I insist on this: needlessly--destroyed (or prevented from growing) because of this arbitrary notion that "genitals 'x' = behaviour 'x' and genitals 'y' = behaviour 'y' and never the twain shall meet." That's pure, unadulterated bullshit; real--not 'ideal' but real--human beings get lost in that equation. I'm one of those human beings and I don't want to be "lost" anymore. I want to shout from the rooftops. I want to shout: "I am!"

"I am and I have every right to be as you do!"

My gender "performance" (outrageous because it crosses gender lines; outrageous because it sometimes falls into gross stereotypical exaggerations) is my way of shouting at the world that, beyond mindless conventionality, beyond petty satisfaction with surface appearances, beyond outmoded binary thinking, there live flesh and blood persons who are shriveled and wilting because of the tyranny of convention, appearance, and binary thinking.

Now that the, uh, rant, is over, I have to say that neither sex is well served by thinking that the other "should" look one way or another. Ordinary looking people go to make up most of the world's population. And ordinary people have pimples, creases, dry skin or oily, bald patches, one breast bigger than the other, one testicle lower than the other, curly toes, thin fingers, big butts, chipped teeth, crow's feet, hairy nostrils, knobby knees, jug ears, pug noses, beer bellies, and bony wrists (and if you think that's bad, you should see the other guy! ). Seriously, the only thing people are "supposed" to look like is themselves, whether they're men or women... or even something in between.

Just be.

Love,
CJ

Hi, CJ - I think this is a great topic and much needed!

I have never liked the 'stereotypes' that are applied to people, especially when it comes to how they are expected to look. Everyone is unique unto themselves, no matter what the fashion and beauty industry pushes down our throats.

Personally, I believe that you (applied generically here, not personally) owe it to yourself to look and dress the best you can within whatever constraints you have, i.e., budget, health, physical appearances, etc. I'm no raving beauty but I do try to look and dress my best no matter what I am doing (okay, doing grubby work doesn't count), and I usually succeed.

Sure, some days I'm looking and dressing better than others - and that could depend on how I'm feeling that day, my attitude, or my activity level, etc. But no matter what, I am always doing my best to look my best - - first I do it for me, then a very close second or a tie would be that I'm also doing it for my girlfriend, who's opinion matters very much.

{In case anyone is wondering and hasn't been following my posts lately, I occasionally refer to my CD as my 'girlfriend' because she is my best 'girl' friend, too. I am not a lesbian, although I am my CD's lesbian because I love her just as much as I love him!}

My girlfriend could easily outdress me, and that's okay. I don't get jealous because she has this uncanny ability to choose the best outfit for the occasion - if anything, I'm envious - because it raises the bar for me to look better to please her! And it must work, because we are exceedingly happy with each other!!



- SL

My two cents also - while there are any number of CDers who dress in some form of conservative businesswoman/church lady, there must be an equal number who go for the all-out look.

It occurs to me that when a CDer dresses, it is an Event, especially for those who don't dress 24/7. It appears that if a CDer is able to go out dressed, whether it is to run errands or go to some shindig, it is an Event and thus is treated by the person getting dressed as an Event.

Ya know, when I dress up for a special night out, it is an Event too and it takes a lot of time and effort and part of the Event is the prep time and the primping and the pre-dressing bubble bath and all of that. When I throw something on to go to the grocery store, it isn't an Event. It is putting clothes on so that I don't get arrested for being naked in the frozen food aisle.

Interestingly, much of the casualness Virginia observes is also found in men in male clothing. Many of us are old enough to remember that our parents never started off on an errand without being dressed relatively decently. My mother AND my father would have rather died than go to the grocery store in their old jeans and a T shirt. (In fact, I don't believe that either owned a pair of old jeans and Daddy's T-shirts went *under* his sports shirts!)

I remember, (and so do most of ya'll ) , when people on airplanes were in suits and ties and dresses and heels. Few of us dress up this much for much of anything anymore. Dunno if this is good or bad, it is just yet another legacy from the Flower Children among us!

-georgia(so)

CJ this is an excellent topic and one that has been touched on many times here. But I think you are right about it meriting its own thread.

I have actually seen pictures of a couple of the ladies from Playboy in a more realistic setting and it was interesting to see how without the makeup, props, poses, lingerie and perhaps a different photographer they looked unrecognizably different. Still attractive but much more ordinary looking. The point being that even supermodels don't look like who we see in magazines when they are in real life.

The question of what men and women should look like gets a lot more interesting when we consider that there is not a lot of agreement even within a traditional framework. One of the major disagreements my wife and I used to have when we were dating was over what men were supposed to look like with me having one idea and her having a very different idea. The same is even more true of women I think, with one womans idea of being dressed up being another's idea of far too sexy and so on. And then we tell our children that clothes don't matter, it's what is inside you that counts, even as we and society as a whole do our best to convince them that this is a lie.

Absaroka

Hey girls,

Cj,

Another great thread, I am sure you knew I would not be able to resist taking about such a perplexing subject. I can't say that I disagree with anything that has been said, it is all valid and seems to ring true. I just wanted to add my two cents worth as it were.

I would like to start off by saying that because I am more than just a crossdresser, there are many more times I dress that are "not an event", as Georgia(SO) pointed out. In fact I have never really dressed for an "event". My dressing is all just regular life things. This has not kept me from the internal fight or idealism in my dressing. Like you CJ, my mental image of women is far different than the reality of women.

It was a great boone for me when I realized that not only I wanted to look like an idealized woman, but also so did many women. While there are women that are comfortable in their own skin, they had to work thier way past the idealized woman that was drilled into thier heads as well as mine.

Just take a walk around your nearest mall. The idealized woman is rare, if seen at all. It turns out that like GG's, I must accept that this impression of women is a fraud. This realization has allowed me to dress more like the women I really see in the world.

I do try to dress nicely for school but I don't get up saturday morning put on a dress, hose, high heels and makeup. I sometimes just stay in my night gown and drink coffee or tea and read the news or the forum, chat up Raven or my kids and remain fairly casual. Again, not unlike GG's.

Very interesting thread, I can't wait to see what others think about this.

Love always,
Elizabeth

I'd like to think that the only person I apply 'should' to in relation to how one should look or present themselves is myself.

I love clothes, am very interested in fashion and style and never leave the house without makeup. I don't really know why I need to use clothes and makeup to boost my self esteem but I do and I get pleasure out of knowing that I look my best.

However, I am aware that not everyone has this need or interest and I've worked hard over the years not to judge people negatively because they are 'different' to me. It is so easy to judge people according to how they are dressed , I'm sure we all do it all day long, consciously or unconsciously. But I am aware of how wrong these judgements can be.

Before I met Ed, I disliked tattoos. When I first met him and saw that he was tattooed and had a shaved head my first impressions were that he was hard and maybe a thug! How wrong I was! When he first started chatting to me I immediately realised how incongruous my judgement was with who he really was! If I had met him enfemme I may have made a different, equally wrong, set of assumptions about him. So now, I really try and stay away from thinking how people should and shouldn't look...only they have the right to decide that for themselves. I still love to people watch..I'm fascinated by how people dress themselves...but I do it from 'I'. If I'm sitting watching people go by, I will say, (quietly!) 'I like that outfit' or 'I wouldn't wear that' I might even steal a few ideas, but I try hard not to make negative assumptions about people just because they dress differently to me or different from some idealised stereotype.

CJ, can I add 'and let others be' to your fine quote?!

Love,
Curly

Hi all,

Curly wrote: CJ, can I add 'and let others be' to your fine quote?!

Curly, you most certainly can.

Following Bill Strunk's admonition (omit needless words), we could even say: "Live and let live." Now there's a thought! I agree with you that, when it comes to appearance, "oughts" ought only to be applied to ourselves (although, even here, there's a danger if we've come to "internalize" the "oughts" of others).

The thing about appearance or beauty standards is that they're not only psychological preferences (often based on personal judgments that can be, as you said, Curly, far off the mark) but also culturally determined.

Look at the following photographs. These are all beautiful women. And what makes them beautiful (to my eyes, anyway) is the sheer diversity they embody. No "Western accessorizing" required. (I tried to reduce the images so that they load more quickly--sorry if it still takes a second or two on older browsers.)





















Beauty is everywhere.

Love,
CJ

Cj,
You are so right "we" humans are beautiful, just as one warthog is beautiful to another warthog! Fortunately we have the diversity and I will wager that in the above pictures, there is not a CD amomgst them (well I saw one that I had to take a second look at) - it would be just like you to try and sneak one of us into that mix!
I remember a thread I started several months ago about how males can identify a female regardless of what she is wearing or within reason, how far away she is or within a very short time span. It is just something in the genetic makeup of males that their radar almost instantaneously says that is "Female!" then it begins to categorize her into whatever interpretation that that particular person's "desires" are!
Most of us as CD'ers seek to emulate that feminine beauty. some of us over do it, some try to fit in and others are "just a guy in a dress!" Let's look at those of us who for whatever reason try to pass. Now compare that to the GG's that could care less how they look - where is the balance?? Should we continue to try and emulate what "our preception" of feminity is - which for most of us is something that appears to be beyond what some GG's want to present as! Things like a skirt and nice blouse with heels vs. jeans and a sweatshirt amd tennis shoes!. Could we as CD'ers more easily pass dressing (no I won't say "down") but in the jeans and sweatshirt and tennis shoes. Again, the malls seem to be the target zone, so go to the mall and watch other males watch women, who gets the second and third glances??? Do women care that men or for that matter other women are looking at them?? I remember a statement I read once:"that women dress for other women not for men!" It is now rather topsy turvy is it not? One of the GG's took me to the wood shed for commenting on this very subject and made a very substantive statement that if I see a woman "inadequately" dressed (to my standards) take a good look at the "slob" she may be shoping with, so were is her incentive to "dress-up?"
I'm sorry am I off topic?
I think that you all know how Virginia feels about this whole thing. She has been taken to the woodshed enough about her opinion on appearances so all I can say is that Virginia will continue to dress as she see fit and if that appears to be overdressed then so be it! She is proud of who she is and she is proud to be a woman and will dress as such!
If I hurt anyyone's feeling or insinuated something or you read something between the lines that may or may not be there. I have a beaten path to that woodshed so it will not be a new experience for me.
Love you all,
Virginia

Wonderful thread!

As one who does this 24/7, but still consider myself a "man in a man's body" (and gay to boot), I rarely, if ever, have an "event". I don't go to the bars, whether gay or straight, but I do enjoy the company of men, and that's about the only "events" I have. So then, I usually do dress up for them, but that may not last long, LOL!

So for the rest of the time that I have to interact with people, I try to dress like 99% of the women I see everyday which is, sadly I believe, what can best be described as "casual". Unless one has a job that requires skirts and dresses, most women just aren't going wear them these days. I hate that, but that's the reality of it, at least in the circles I run in.

I just got back from running some errands, and this is a picture taken after I returned.




Hardly "dressed up", and hardly sexy, but no one, from children to teenagers (male and female) to older peeps gave me a second glance. And that is just what I try to achieve, "blending". I did, however, have a couple of men open the door for me, and I thanked them and went about my business. I should add that I am 6'1" tall, weigh (I'm overweight) about 180, and have size 12 (women's) feet! Hardly a "doll"!

While I actually like being known as a "sissy" amongst my male friends, in public that is the last thing I want to project, so I go with the flow. I applaud you that can run around in a dress, whether tarty or conservative, but I know that if I did that, I would get those 2nd and 3rd glances, and I just don't feel comfortable with that. I wish I did, but I don't.

So, once again, I guess it comes down to the "we are all different" explanation, doesn't it? I would bet there are almost as many different reasons for crossdressing as there are crossdressers.

I hope I haven't offended anyone here, and to the SO's and their cd'ing partners, I am not you, and just because I live 24/7 and am gay, doesn't mean that anyone else is, OK?

Hi Everyone,

Virginia,

Should we continue to try and emulate what "our preception" of feminity is

Yes, most definitely! I do not have a problem with anyone having a perception of femininity...My one is probably very similar to yours. I would never dress casual just to blend in either.

I think it's very much a personal decision whether to dress to blend in or just dress how you want, as Tracy said, some people aren't comfortable with second or third glances, some are.

In a nearby town me there is a lawyer who goes out dressed in Period costume, I don't know which period but I would guess pre-Victorian! He certainly gets second and third glances! Every time I've seen him, I've admired the fact that he doesn't feel the need to conform or blend in, he dresses for himself and good for him!

As for the question of who we dress for...I really don't know the answer to that. I think that firstly I dress for myself, but I do admit that I do care what other people think, whether they be male or female. Though I would not worry about being thought of as overdressed, in the same way as the lawyer I just mentioned, doesn't!

CJ, thanks for posting the pics, they are wonderful! That's what it is all about...diversity...it makes the World a wonderful and interesting place!

Virginia...Sorry, no woodshed for you today...though I think you secretly like it there

Love,
Curly

Hi Curly,
Does this barrister dress with a powdered wig or in hoop skirts and such?? You know there is, well, there are a lot of lawyer jokes, maybe he is a writer!?
As for the woodshed -- it is dependent on who is trying to get a piece of my behind and for what reason.
Love ya, and thanks for being there for us - it really means a lot to us for the GG's to share with us!!
Virginia

Virginia wrote:

As for the woodshed -- it is dependent on who is trying to get a piece of my behind and for what reason.

Hmmm, Virginia - I seem to recall you mentioning that you have an SO in your life now - - congratulations, my friend, I am very happy for you both! - - so maybe you *do* have more reasons now to be taken to that familiar woodshed of yours? Better yet, shouldn't your SO be taking you to the hayloft instead, where it's so much more comfortable?

Inquiring minds want to know!!




- SL

I think most of us have never seen men or women in real life that look like the people depicted in fashion magazines. We have all been Madison Avenueized. That's fantasy. If you want reality stand in line at any Motor Vehicle department in the country. That will snap you out of it real fast!
Tracy was right that there are so many differant reaons we crossdress and how we dress. We are all very unique. Hey. My favorite love story with a happy ending is "Secretary" with James Spader. It brings a tear to my eye. I loved it.
Virginia. Don't take Silver Ladys advice about the hayloft. The last time I was there I sat on a needle! OUCH! My luck! Hugs and kisses.


Love
Jeannie

PS At least I think it was a needle!

CJ i loved the pictures

Absaroka

I find things kinda strange here at times, Why is it OK to put up a photo of a topless woman and delete my post with a link to my videos where I am touching my breasts. I am not showing my breasts in the videos, yet this third world woman up above is topless.

Is it OK to show third world woman topless and not western women ot=r western shemales. What is there a difference? Is this some kind of political correctness that allows topless third world woman and not topless western woman. Or shemales that touch their breasts. Why can you CJ, see beauty in a topless third world woman and not in my videos? So it is up to you and your judgement of what is OK and what is not. How do you make a judgement, is it the photos you put up are OK and others are not. I see a bias in what you do, I see this from all the straight Cds on these forums.

Why are CD forums full of scared and coward straight males. Why are straight Cds so cowardly when something of erotic nature comes into eye contact? Straight Cds on all these forums are cowards in so many ways, why is this?
Most are scared to go out, scared to show a pic, and heaven forbid if a straight CD is called gay, then they cry and complain days on end.
What are straight Cds so scared of?
Why is there a double standard that lets CJ post a pic of a topless woman yet my video link of me touching my breast is wrong?

And to give a reason that this is your forum and you can do what you want is BS. If it’s your private playground then say it up front on the forum title. Out up on the title, we mods at this forum can post what ever we like but you members can not do the same. Maybe if you put this on the title, people will understand better how this forum operates.

Now I leave you all to your long winded boring post son something that is quite simple, the wearing of womens clothes, it ain’t no big deal, it doesn’t need a Harvard grad to understand, one doesn’t have to be a phsyc 101 major to deal with it, what are you lot waiting for, are you waiting for the grand buddah to come down from the mountain to enlighten you on the theories of cross dressing. For christ sake, it’s the wearing of womens clothes. It doesn’t need page after page of boring educated theories that are totally meaningless in the real world.