Shame and Embarrassment

[Stacey]

Does the embarrassment or shame from our wives ever get better? In a recent conversation with my wife, she said she felt ashamed of me, when she thought of my dressing, and she was embarrassed for me and my children. This sent me reeling so much that it has caused me to wonder if it's ever going to get better. I thought that she was beginning to accept this part of me, but then.... I also understand that there is a process to it all, but I am beginning to fear that she is going to be stuck in this stage. I would appreciate any comments from the SO's about how they overcame the shame and embarrassment.

[Georgia(SO)]

Stacey,

I'm sorry that you are having a hard time. I'm afraid I am of no help regarding the embarrassment of my sweetie's crossdressing, because I'm not embarrased by it.

Different people approach this in different ways. Some enjoy and embrace it, others don't enjoy it but accept it, and others just don't want anything to do with it and consider it to be fundamentally wrong.

I personally fall into the "don't enjoy it but accept it category". I feel no embarrrassment for a couple of reasons.

A) I don't consider it wrong or shameful. There are many lifestyles that are neither wrong nor shameful that I don't particularly enjoy - the two are not the same thing.

B) My sweetie's behavior is not a reflection of me. There's very little that he could do to embarrass me because I am not responsible for him or his behavior, ergo, there is no shame for me regardless of what he does. This is an extension of my belief that we are individual and distinct people - I do not get reflected glory because he is an accomplished whatever he is, nor do I get reflected shame if he makes a fool of himself somewhere.

I don't know about men, but many gg's seem to have trouble separating their husband's life from their own. Often, this is a function of being young - I think that after a couple of divorces and few decades of living with several SOs, you begin to really grasp that there are two individual human beings here.

At least philosophically that's how I feel. In real life, of course he can embarrass me just as I can embarrass him (very big difference between embarrassment and shame, BTW). But CDing is not one of those things.

I should also note in here somewhere that an SO could be embarrassed by the public reaction without also believing that CDing is fundamentally wrong, but I would not think that particularly likely. And if someone is actually using the word *ashamed* (which is quite different from embarrased), then I would think that the person does, in fact, think that there is something wrong with it. That is a bigger sticking point...

I'm sorry I can't be of more help...

-g(so)

[Carol Ann]

Stacey,
Maybe your wife is just protecting the children, as their friends and class mates if they were to find out can say some really mean things.
Sorry you are having it so bad, keep the faith my sister.

[Terri(SO)]

This is a very timely post for me.
First I have to say that I find nothing shameful about crossdressing, whatever its manifestation. For us, however it is a fetish thing and therefore a very private thing. Not something I tell my friends or family. I don't share anything about my sex life with them.

Maria and I recently bought a house and are getting ready to actually live together. Previously Maria was only around in my apartment and it was a very intimate and private activity, closed blinds of course.

Yesterday, we brought Maria out to play at the new house and he kept wanting to go out in the back yard. I really really don't want to do that. We have neighbors who look out their windows work in the yard and can see perfectly well over the fence (this is a City and even though its a yard we are still all in very close quarters).

Like Georgia said. His being dressed as a hooker prancing around the yard is a reflection on him not me but it feels like he's exposing my sex life as well as his own by doing that and I don't like to share that part of myself. Its thrilling to him but very embarrassing to me.

[Stacey]

Stacey,
Maybe your wife is just protecting the children, as their friends and class mates if they were to find out can say some really mean things.
Sorry you are having it so bad, keep the faith my sister.

I think that's she does want to protect the children, and so do I. But I think some of the shame and embarrassment comes from her life history and family systems.

[Sunshine Girl(SO)]

Hiya Stacy...

I'm a member of another forum where I'm noted for my "big red clown nose" story. I kinda feel it applies here, so here it goes:

Say your wife has this "thing" for a big, red, clown nose and every time she puts it on, she gets turned-on. Now, you can look at her and think, god, this is so silly. You just don't understand what she sees in the big, red, clown nose.

But since you love your wife so, you tolerate her wearing this nose around the house sometimes. Even if she spends most of her time wearing it lost in the throws of self-pleasure.

Then the day comes that she wants to wear this big, red, clown nose while you two are engaged in sex. You think to yourself, how am I ever gonna concentrate during sex while staring at this big, red nose?

But since you love your wife so, you tolerate her wearing this nose while having sex sometimes. Even if it's so distracting, you may have to "fake" a climax.

Then the day comes when she wants to wear the entire clowns outfit. Remember, small steps. Now she wants to wear this outfit to the mall. And she wants you to get sexually excited seeing her in this big, red nose and clown suit.

Now, how would you feel?

There might even be a forum out there in cyber-land for women who love wearing big, red noses and all.

Sunshine Girl(SO)

[CJ]

Hi all,

Stacey,

I think this is another instance where we have to take things on a case-by-case basis. I know that, in my own life, I've been with SO's who ran the gamut from "totally encouraging and supportive" to "I want to hear nothing about this ever again." I wasn't with the latter for a very long time.

Terri,

Wow. Moving in together, eh? Congrats! Your situation strikes a chord with me; the falling out Marie and I had starting in September of 2005 began with her finding out that I had been in the yard dressed. Her horror and shame when she found out that I had done so signaled the beginning of the end of our 25-year friendship--and she wasn't even my SO, just a friend and a roommate. My feeling is this: if Maria wants to be outside, dressed, then there's a distinct possibility that this is somewhat more than just a sexual fetish thing for him.

Sunny,

I like the big red nose story. Nevertheless, I think it would more properly apply to our situation if the two traditionally accepted gender identities were, in the case of the SO who had these desires, not "feminine" and "masculine" but, rather, "feminine" and, uh, "clownine." If the SO in question felt, deep down inside, that she was really a clown (remember: with "clown" being taken as a valid gender identity) who had masqueraded as a woman or who had fought to repress her "clownish" leanings all her life, the situation would be different than her merely being a woman with clownish tendencies and desires in a world where traditional (trans)gender expressions are either masculine or feminine or a peculiar mixture of both.

I like the story because it highlights the grotesque (and often humorous) aspect of having grown men with traditionally masculine features and builds trying to parade around as women. But, you know what? even the sorriest-looking tranny sees herself as a beautiful woman on the inside. And it's that inner person that we try to show to the world when we engage in transgender behaviour. So we're not very good at it. That happens. In some SO's, their partner's ability and willingness and lack of fear at expressing who they truly are on the inside inspires pride rather than shame. Clownish allure or no.

But your point is well taken. Thanks for the post.

Love,
CJ

[Sunshine Girl(SO)]

Dear CJ...

Point taken. But, remember, I was telling this story from the hubby's point of view. All he sees is the nose. It is not posible for him to see the "desire" within his wife. The "drive" she has to this clown's lifestyle.

All he sees is that big, red nose.

Sunny

[CJ]

Hi all,

I agree, Sunny. You're right, all he sees is the big red nose. The embarrassment she may give rise to in her husband because of her clownine identity then must have something to do with our living in a culture where looks matter very much. Part of me understands this but part of me is also supposing or assuming (a dangerous thing, I know) that, as someone who loves his wife dearly, he'll be able and willing to look deeper and see deeper to the true beauty of his wife. From what little I've read that you've posted, I think this is applicable in your own case and that the big red clown nose story is a way for you to play devil's advocate in trying to explain to us what it can feel like for an SO to be partnered to a CD.

So let me turn the tables for a second in an attempt to explain what it can feel like to be transgendered. Assume we live in a world where everyone has to put on a theatrical mask the very first thing upon awakening in the morning and that this mask is the last thing they remove before going to bed at night. Some of these masks are beautiful and delicate and dainty, some are rough and grotesque but people wear them unquestioningly because they've been taught that, well, that's just what people do--they wear masks. There are some people out there, though, a very few, who find their mask extremely uncomfortable--it makes the skin of their face itch and burn; it gives them a rash; it makes them sweat; it hampers their breathing; in short, it makes them suffer.

One day, such a person says, "Enough! Off with the mask!" Everyone stares in horror and embarrassment at this naked-faced individual goes about his daily grind, maskless. He soon feels shame at the reaction he provokes in the people around him. But he refuses to put the mask back on because he knows that doing so will eventually kill him.

When a transgendered person, uh, "transgenders" (used here as a verb), he or she is showing the world his or her real face, naked for all to see. That person may be ugly and unattractive or beautiful and stunning, but it is that person's true face that we are seeing. We just don't like the fact that he or she refuses to wear a mask. I'll go one step further: we don't like the fact that, in a world of appearance, a person can say, "No! There are things that matter more to me than mere appearance." We don't like it because it flounts conventions--conventions we feel it behooves us to uphold (which we do by putting on our masks in the morning and taking them off at night). We then point to this person and say, "Look! See! How clownish appeareth this one who is maskless!"

Food for thought, anyway.

Oh, one other thing, Sunny. I realize this may be a simple matter of semantics, but to continue to qualify the state of transgenderedness as "a lifestyle" does little to make people understand that, like sexual orientation (or, indeed, anatomy itself), gender identity is not a matter of choice. There are times in my own life when I truly wish it had been. But, now that I know I was born with, or developed very early in life, a desire to "be a clown" (and, trust me, Sunny, I can see the humor in it, too ), I need to figure out how to cope with both the desire itself and with people's embarrassment, as well--that of my SO included.

Love,
CJ

[Georgia(SO)]

CJ -

Sheez you ought to write for a living!

That said, I will argue the semantics of a "lifestyle" with you for a moment. I understand what you are saying - gender identification is not a choice any more than height or race or the ability to do higher mathematics...

But, the word lifestyle does not have anything to do with that, and it is a handy little word that encompasses the holistic aspects of how an individual lives their life. All lifestyles, including that of those who conform to societal expectations simply because they *are*, fundamentally, what society expects them to be, are driven by internal needs and identifications. It sounds as if you are saying that the term "lifestyle" is synonomous with a certain lightness and capriciousness.

Living is a verb - lifestyle is an holistic noun. And for those whose internal needs drive them to live in a different manner than society expects - be it an artist, a non-traditional religious person, an entreprenaur in an assembly line world - they do make the choice to follow a lifestyle that is in concert with their inner being. For that matter, those artists who choose to live in an IBM world do so because their need for stability and group health insurance is stronger than their need to be free to create. That does not mean that their lifestyle is flighty or -- can't think of a better word than capricious. But it does mean that they choose to live their life in a manner that is in tune with their inner being.

For example, I could live my life in a red-brick suburban, Daddy goes to work at the office, three cars and a boat, manner as I was raised. But I would be a stark-raving lunatic before long. So I choose to live my life as a self-employed writer and graphic artist in a small 1920s farm house in the middle of rural somewhere or other. It doesn't make my lifestyle a negative, but there are negative things that come with it (weeks between paychecks, plumbing that would have been outlawed by 1950 if anyone had ever looked, and probably asbestos in the walls, and my family thinks I'm nuts and significantly wierd, and I occasionally wonder if I had taken the road more traveled if life would be easier. Then I remember I'd be in a fetal position under the formal dining table...).

My point is that all lifestyles are choices, driven by one's inner needs. All lifestyle choices have positive aspects as well as negative aspects. And every person intrinsically chooses a lifestyle in which the positives outweight the negatives. In my case, the positive aspects of a traditional suburban lifestyle are far overshadowed by the negatives - the emotional meltdown that would occur if I tried to force myself into that mold.

Ditto with CDs who choose not to be forced into the traditional mold. For SOs who choose to remain with their spouses who wish to live their lives in a TG lifestyle, the SO must also make a choice of whether that lifestyle works for them. It is a value-neutral choice. Some stuff works for some, some stuff doesn't.

-g(so)

[Sunshine Girl(SO)]

Hiya...

CJ, you are so right. And I agree with you. Words are so restrictive. I know "lifestyle" is not the best word. I also feel the word "normal" is a word that one has to be careful with.

I feel society has to be able to put people in "boxes" in order to "classify" them. It's all part of a civil existence. When people don't fit, there is great rebellion and hate, some of this is based on fear. Their defense is to strike out. Attack!

If no one "breaks out of the box", there is no advancement of the society. Those that choose to make a break for it are often shunned and thought of as outcasts.

This is evident throughout history.

Now to get back on track here. I kinda feel that male's right to dress as they feel in is the works. It is no longer a subject that is hidden away. But those on the forefront, all of you right here, are taking the slings and arrows of the battle.

I really feel the time is coming. I hope I live to see the day.

If it were put to a vote, I would be the first in line to vote YES! And I would be holding a large sign expressing my ideals.

I was born one generation away from women's right to wear pants. I was a lucky one. My mother took on that battle for me. I admire her and the others for it. I'm a horse person, and I just couldn't imagine having to tend to my horses wearing full skirts and dresses.

Befriending a transgendered person, then marrying him, has given me an insight into this WHOOPS! (Does "way of life" work?). I'm far from an expert on it. I feel only those who are there REALLY know how it feels.

I truly love my sweetheart. Val is the perfect life partner for me. As for the covering? It's just that. Just clothes. I really don't even notice it any longer.

The same goes for when I'm out & about. If I see a sweetie in all of his glory, I might be thinking the same if I was "checking out" a (I'm kinda stuck here for one of those "words"... okay) "real" woman. Do their shoes go with that outfit? Is their top too tight? Things along those lines.

And one more thing CJ, you are the first to associate my "big, red clown nose" scenario to an over made-up sweetie. I never meant it to be that way. It's just a situation that I use to show some of the guys what their poor honeys might be going through.

And Georgia. I kinda feel you defended my use of "lifestyle". Thank you. But your education far exceeds mine. "Capriciousness"? On a whim, I looked it up.

Love you all,
Sunny

[Anita]

Hi Terri, Stacey, Carol, CJ, Georgia, and Sunshine Girl--
My, what a treat! I must be reading about crossdressing in an article on the New Yorker website! How'd I get over there? The writing here is just cooking along...

It strikes me, in my own case, that I often find my female self "holding back" when I'm around friends and family. They might not be comfortable around me dressed, but if I keep some of the mannerisms and voice that they're familiar with, then they can relax, a little. If I started moving too much into the 'other' mannerisms, and the 'other' voice, then they're going to feel like they're losing "me." This is a struggle that I haven't solved yet, at all.

So--the more "convincing" I am, the more uncomfortable it makes those who know me. I tend NOT to want to make them any more uncomfortable than they already are. So I find myself giving them a mixture of old and new, that probably doesn't work that well for anyone, me included. But I don't want to upset them, either.

In a way, it's just a bigger closet, as Elizabeth once said. I'm "out," but I'm still presenting a picture that I think others can handle. So I keep a lot of male characteristics close at hand, while still wearing the dress.

On the other hand, I have to forget about this onstage, or I'll look really foolish up there. I can't get into my role 'just a little bit.' I have to let my inner girl run wild up there. For the most part, it's strangers who are watching me--and they don't have any comparisons for what they're seeing.

So maybe my friends and family are embarrassed by the "mixture" of male and female (though they aren't saying that), but I also think they aren't too wild about the more consistent female "blend."

[Virginia]

We are getting away somewhat from the topic, but "the girl can't help it!"

Sunny, not wanting to read, well read anything, into your post, I do have to ask you a question. To me and it is just what I think I may have read in your post, to me you are content with Val's dressing, BUT.......... that is the extent of either what you will "put up with" and/or the extent of Val's particpation on the crossdresser's continuum. I can only speak for myself, well, Anita is close to where I want to go with this but I am NOT speaking for her. Can you, do you, would you accept Val's "feminine side" beyond just dressing?? That is does Val exhibit any feminine characteristics, i.e., empathy, sharing, touching (other people), gentleness, other feminne "graces" or, pardon the description, are you just accepting a "guy in a dress?" There is no right or wrong answer, I am just curious to hear from an SO, based on your post as I interpreted it.

I would have to state that for "some of us" the term lifestyle does NOT fit who we are. As has been stated, science is "leaning" toward the postulation that "we are born with this (sic) gift." Some are, shall I say, "more into it" than others, but the meer desire just to crossdress has its roots somewhere!

CJ, I love the analogy of the mask! Perhaps it can be said that some wear more than one -- some wear so many that they don't know where their actual reality is anymore. They can't take off enough masks to get to the real person and even if they did they would not know it!!!!! But I digress.

Stacey, honey for most GG's it ain't easy. As has been stated, most have not ever faced such a "challenge" have not got a clue as to how to deal with it and can only fall back on "what they know or have been taught!" They have no point of reference and some, like my "ex" can only throw up their hands and go screaming into the night!!!! Others ignore it, ignore it and hope it goes away, (and we all know that ain't gonna happen); some just shake their head, and go on living as best they can. Then there are those that say, "well, this is interesting, I would like to at least know more about it--------------before I run screaming into the night!"

For some it is a roller coaster ride, one day they can deal with it and the next they can't. Just remember for you if you truly believe that you are blessed with "the gift" it isn't going to go away. You have several choices which I won't go into here, but I will requote our motto: "baby steps, honey, just baby steps!"

We are here for you and as you can see there is a lot of love here, too.

Virginia

[SilverLady(SO)]

I have never been made to feel ashamed of Virginia, nor has she ever embarrassed me. I love her for whom she is, and I love her male alter-ego for whom he is - and yes, they do have separate, but similar traits and personalities. Virginia is 'present' 24/7, even though she may not be dressed in a wig and makeup. But, "he" is also present - and it's difficult to explain the differences or similarities to you, or anyone, because if we told "you" then "you" just might think we were nuts.

We have been to several main-stream venues and nothing untoward has ever happened. I do admit that the first time we went clothes shopping together - the first time for both of us, as she had never shopped en femme before - I was in my "protective" mode and stayed close by her for a while. When it became apparent that absolutely nobody was paying any attention to us, I relaxed and wandered off to another aisle, leaving her alone.

Since then, I have had absolutely no worries about her being read - she does pass, IMHO - although we have gotten a few questioning glances from some college-age kids while at an outdoor mall in Richmond. But then, we were both dressed in skirts and wearing heels, and all the other women shoppers were wearing jeans and sneakers.

While we were out in Las Vegas last week, we did a fair amount of shopping and eating in restaurants while Virginia was en femme, and no one bothered us. Nor did anyone bother us while her male alter-ego was out shopping with me and wearing an obviously-feminine blouse - one of those see-through types with a flowered design on it. A couple of GG sales clerks were curious about the blouse - I just said that it looked so much better on him than it did me, and they left us alone.

So, no, I am not ashamed of Virginia, nor has she ever been an embarrassment to me. I do admit to a bit of loving jealousy, though - we wear the same size for skirts and have a combined/shared skirt rack, and in some of those skirts (especially the mini skirts) she looks a whole lot better in them than do I. We do have a policy, though: who ever grabs the skirt, or necklace, etc. first gets to wear it. It works for us!!!

I have never been happier in my life than I am now. Virginia and her male alter-ego "complete" me, and I them. I love Virginia and her male alter-ego, and they love me. Together, the three of us will walk hand-in-hand on OUR 'Magical Mystery Tour.'

First star to the right, straight on til morning!!



- SL

[Sunshine Girl(SO)]

Hiya...

I know I'm new here, but I'm so glad I found this forum. I hope in the days (weeks, months) to come, I'll be able to explain my feelings better.

I love my hubby for whom he is, not for what he wears, or doesn't wear. He is very caring, thoughtful and loving person. When we first met, he was just a "guy in a dress". But in the two year friendship that followed, that turned into our engagement, I discovered the person inside that I fell in love with.

As I have stated, as above with CJ, that I am not one that feels people should be described in general terms. We are all different.

So keeping that in mind, I will say that my hubby was "out" when we met. His family and work knew of his "softer side" (I learned that term from his mother) and his manner of dress. I never had to deal with some of the emotions that many wives have to experience. But I was never ashamed or embarrassed to be seen with Val.

I feel Val could be a crossdresser at a nudist camp. LOL. It's just the way he carries himself. He's very soft spoken and tries to keep to himself. That is why I had trouble getting him to sign up to this forum. He will never volunteer to be the poster child for the transgendered.

When I speak of it being "just clothes", I'm speaking of the covering. It's the person inside that we love. I wouldn't care if he wanted to wear a hula skirt with bowling shoes, I would still love him.

And as for other guys? This is how I see it when I talk of it being just clothes. Us girls can wear anything we want, why not them, huh? After all, it's just clothes, right? I hope by saying it that way, my meaning will be clearer.

I see nothing wrong if a guy, being transgendered or not, wants to wear a dress. He's still the same person under the dress, right? Just like days when I'm out working my horses or cleaning stalls. If I'm in jeans and a old baggy T-shirt, am I a different person? Any less a female than when I'm dressed any other way? Of course not. And I feel the guys should have the same options. It's just clothes. (there I go again.)

I just have one person. Val. Not a him and a her. Val is very feminine in all of his mannerisms. He would rather read a book than watch TV. He keeps the house while I'm the one that mows the grass. He's the one that will pop the corn and light candles on the patio for us to enjoy the sunset in the evening. He's the one that would rather go antiquing in Charleston then hit the casinos in Atlantic City.

And one more thing about a "guy in a dress". As for the general public, when seeing us out & about, not just hubby and I, but all of us here in this forum, should just mind their own business. If all they see is a guy in a dress, that's because they haven't had the pleasure of meeting a person true to themselves and the world.

Love,
Sunny(SO)