Crossdressers-Haven.com

This subject was on the NPR website this morning, but cant find it there this evening. Found it listed at link below. This was from May and I didnt hear about it till now. Sorry if this has been posted before.

Sylvia

If this link goes away, I will post the text.

http://www.onenewsnow.com/2007/05/gende ... minist.php

Thanks, Sylvia for posting this.

I took time to read the responses --- it is highly recommended that anyone else who reads the thread also read the responses. If you are not currently convinced that we T-girls are not welcomed in religion just see what all these "wack-o's" (that is French for Wack-o) feel about us!!!!

Gee and I wonder why I do not darken the doors of any church now!!??

We are NOT mistakes or sin incarnate or disciples of satan or whatever these "holy-rollers" say we are. They should be so "blessed" to have the "gift" we have!!!


Love you all,

Virginia

I read through many of the responses, and they all have one thing in common ---

Lack of understanding and lack of compassion.

People are basing their case solely on Scripture without measuring the human condition.

The repeated statement, "God doesn't make mistakes" holds little meaning in a world that has poluted the water with chemicals, raised animals to slaughter for food with other chemicals, and used chemicals and pesticides to raise crops. All these things we take into our bodies and who knows what effects they have on unborn children, or what effect they have on people as they mature.

I don't think that God makes mistakes, people do. Perhaps we are the result of the environment poluted by the mistakes of other people.

That being said, we are people who deserve every right to be who we are without judgement except by the one who will judge us in the end.

CE

Carol Elizabeth wrote:... we are people who deserve every right to be who we are without judgement except by the one who will judge us in the end.

That's what I've been saying all along, and this can be applied to just about any situation (excluding criminal activities) where people decide to pass judgment on others.

*Hugs*

- SL

Hi all,

Thanks for the link, Sylvia.

I read all the responses, too, and I have to admit I found them much more entertaining than the article itself. We have to remember that the One News web site is an affiliate or subsidiary or whatever of the American Family News Network, an organization "that exists to present the day's stories from a biblical perspective" where you "get your news from reporters you can trust to give the latest news without the liberal bias that characterizes so much of the 'mainstream' media." (quoted from the AFN's mission statement). As such, it's no surprise that the replies to the article should contain such a high level of vitriolic intolerance and judgmental hubris--I've never before seen such a large collection of people who so well know the will of God--that is characteristic of Christian fundamentalism.

They're not even worth replying to. Who has time to wrestle with children?

Love,
CJ

Virginia read the article to me last night, and by the time she got to the comments section, I had a nasty headache! I suspected it was one of those "religious wrong" websites, and turns out I'm correct!

CJ wrote:They're not even worth replying to. Who has time to wrestle with children?

You're right, CJ, and it can also be summed up like this:

"Don't try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and irritates the pig."

*Hugs*

- SL

The original post on NPR I just read the article,as if I want someone elses opinion I have to look no further than my own family. Or even me if Im drunk enough:)

I thought it significant a mainstream protestant organization actually went out of their way NOT to demonize anything. He got to keep his job and social network! We should all be so lucky!

As far as the biggots go, they have always been here and always will. You cant tell them anything, so why bother. Im beginning to believe the minimalization that we perceive ourselves to be in isnt so much caused from bigots. Rather too much emphasis being placed on that when what I see people mostly are indifferent. On a practical on sight level it can be hard to tell the difference.
Granted its the bigots that get the indifferent stirred up.

Anyway, maybe this is the beginning of something more positive ...Maybe just maybe?

xoxox
Sylvia

OK, rather than refer to a media outlet we need to go to the source. Questions were posed to the resident Bishop as to the re-appointment of the clergyperson involved. Also a minor (to me) question concerning whether the persons name change had been handled correctly.

A decision in this case was made at the end of October. The details can be found here: UMC Judicial Council Decision

Here is the final decision as it stands.

Decision

A clergyperson who remained in good standing in the annual conference is required to be continued under appointment. A clergyperson’s good standing cannot be terminated without administrative or judicial action having occurred and all fair process being accorded. All clergy name changes regardless of the reasons for the name change are to be placed under minute question # 91. The Judicial Council does not reach the question of whether gender change is a chargeable offense or violates minimum standards established by the General Conference.

October 27, 2007

In other words, the resident Bishop's decision to re-appoint the clergyperson was the only action the Bishop could take. Until someone makes an official complaint about this person, he will remain the pastor of his church.

If I can help anyone understand this please post here or IM me.

Connie.

PS according to a story I read about a month ago, the congregation of the church he served welcomed him back with open arms, and why not, he has increased membership and contributions. - C

I'd wonder if it would have been the same if the clergyperson was M2F?

Hi all,

Just one more point (and I was waiting for Virginia to point this out, as she has in the past): many of the comments refer to gender transitioning as being the outcome of the belief that God made a mistake whereas, in reality, it's equally plausible (and much more spiritually satisfying) to believe that this is the path God chose for a transgendered person (especially if Psalm 139 is to be taken literally, as many of the One News article commentators seem to).

If God knew my destiny before I was born, then He knew I would be transgendered; who am I to question the will of God? Of course, this is IF I believed in God. The mistake, rather, lies in the belief that God's creation (including the fact of gender variance) must not be accepted.

Also, we must never forget that all these injunctions (men will not lie with men, male and female created He them, the man shall not wear that which pertaineth to the woman, and all that jazz) mattered much more back then to the Jewish tribes for whom "getting and begetting" was paramount in the face of ethnic extinction. I'm not sure they're as necessary today as they were 2,500 years ago.

Love,
CJ

Connie,
Thanks for the post. I have not had time this week to follow up on the story.
The Bishops decision may be as stated. I still think it very significant there was not already a rule in place to allow the "witch hunting" that may very well have taken place in another venue. I wont name names.
Ive a mind to call the pastor himself and ask a few questions directly. Just to see if all this is being reported correctly.

xoxo
Sylvia

Sylvia,

I've been watching for the results of this since seeing an article in USA Today. (I'm a crossdressing United Methodist) You can see the text of Rev. Phoenix's statement at the BW conference site. I don't know if it is complete, but think the ellipsis is just a pause for effect, not necessarily a deletion of text.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "witch hunt" but you should realize that the United Methodist Church only dealt with homosexuality in 2004 (no to clergy, yes to support of laity). It looks like they may be taking on transexuallity in 2008 (I doubt that they will even broach the subject of crossdressing). At that point we may see that Rev. Drew Phoenix is without a church.

Connie