An old newbie..

Amelie-Laveau · Post by **Amelie-Laveau** » Sat Apr 16, 2011 4:32 pm

Hi Eloise, nice to chat with ya. Let me clear one thing,,, I believe that all t people on the spectrum deserve the right to dress and live the way they see is best for them. I will not let someone on a tg forum put another tg person down just because the person doesn't adhere to a standard that all tg people should follow. I believe tg people should live happy and not get grief from fellow tg people just because they look different and when I feel someone steps out of line and condemns a tg person for how they look, then I will attack the person as being intolerant. I just wanted to make that clear cause the thread was taken down so no one can go back to it.

But it is nice to see you again Eloise,, I always liked your style.

Post by **DonnaT** » Sat Apr 16, 2011 9:11 pm

Hi Amelie, nice to see you again!

Amelie-Laveau · Post by **Amelie-Laveau** » Sun Apr 17, 2011 4:29 pm

It's always nice to see you Donna, you're a very sweet girl.

Paula G · Post by **Paula G** » Sun Apr 17, 2011 5:52 pm

Amelie-Laveau wrote:besides the forum being bloody boring, there are some intolerant people on this forum and I won't associate with people like that.

Isn't refusing to associate with people you don't agree with almost a definition of intolerance? I want to be challenged, in how I behave and in what I think, a forum where everyone agrees, now that would be boring. While everyone here will have one thing in common, which I would have thought would be a source of tolerance, that one thing does not mean that we will have other things in common. I see no reason why our politics, faith, pass times, passions and attitudes would co-incide, it is these differences that make this forum more interesting than other (single interest) fora to which I subscribe.

Amelie-Laveau · Post by **Amelie-Laveau** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:39 pm

OK, next time you post, put up a pic of you associating with some klans men,,people who don't agree with the way you live then you can tell me who i should associate with or not associate with.

** Redundant quoting removed pursuant to: Etiquette Guidelines - http://crossdressers-haven.com/forums/v ... hp?t=10059

Absaroka · Post by **Absaroka** » Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:02 pm

Amelie has brought up an excellent point, and one that has caused conflict with a number of members here.

It's worth remembering the original purpose of these forums, which was to offer support to the heterosexual crossdresser and their spouses. Over time it came to be also a forum for the transgendered. Thus while an original orientation might have been to reassure someones spouse that transition was probably not imminent and that this was about the clothes, that has changed.

Another key word in that original purpose was heterosexual. There is a section here for wives, girlfriends and so on. At one point a request was made to amend this to allow all SOs. Specifically that had to do with someones male homosexual partner. It might have been an interesting discussion since I had an impression that it was sometimes a place for female SOs to be candid about their feelings about men in dresses-a gay man might have a different perspective on this.

One of the "rules" for many crossdressers is not to rock too many boats at once. Thus many crossdressers try to dress their age and look respectable. To this end there is a policy of not allowing pictures of men with facial hair wearing female garb, although some of us do just that. Also some members take exception to overly casual female dress on women, let alone men. That's sparked a few arguements.

There have been a number of political discussions here on the hot topics which have led to hard feelings. Since crossdressers seem to be found in every portion of society, that means there are Rush Limbaugh ditto heads and radical liberals who feel Obama is way too conservative, and everyone else in between and with other perspectives. It's made for some intolerant discussions.

Lastly there was a decision early on to have this be a pretty non sexual site. We might discuss our thoughts and feelings to some extent but there was to be no computer sex or anything resembling that. This was for a couple of reasons, one to reassure the spouses, and another was because there are plenty of other places to do this. But because sexuality can be a big part of both who we are and of our choice in clothes this has led to conflict.

Personally I think the forum moderators have done a pretty good job of walking a half dozen tightropes at once with regard to these issues. It has at times forced me to think a bit more than I'd have liked about how to discuss certain things, and I also sometimes feel that our whole slant on some issues is a bit obvious. But all in all I like it here even if I personally often find the whole shopping discussion topics a tad less than interesting. When I first came here I loved them......

I'm wondering if other members think there might be other ways to handle certain areas of discussion.

Zari

Paula G · Post by **Paula G** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:51 am

Certainly not boring!

Unfortunately I frequently have to associate with people I disagree with and who disapprove of a number of my life choices, fortunately for me South East England is a hotbed of moderation, so any Klansmen that maybe around here are much deeper in the closet than me. However both my work and my hobbies take me into places, with people I have little or no control over, I will frequently find myself in the company of people who would be horrified by my cross dressing if they knew about it, I'm afraid I tend to take the cowardly way out of not telling them. On the other hand I also often find myself in the company of people who feel threatened by my faith, or angered by my politics, so far I have only been physically assaulted for my politics (the anti nazy league while campaigning against the NF)

My point is more that this should be a place of tolerance, like Absaroka I feel that there is a lot more to discuss here than shopping (although I may well enjoy shopping as well), there are much more important issues hence the value of the guide line tight ropes refered to. It is within the confines of the forum that I want to be chanllenged, here I know that there are rules, moderators who will enforce them, and a common interest. There are also a varied set of people with different backgrounds, careers, faith, etc. etc. it is the common ground that makes it safe, the difference that makes it interesting.

Absaroka · Post by **Absaroka** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:46 am

Of course tolerance only goes so far, Klan types being a great example. I have relatives who fled Europe at the onset of WW2 because they were Jewish and had a pretty good idea of what was coming. So if someone talks about Nazis and openmindedness they are talking about being open minded about the idea of my extended family being herded into ovens, i.e. killing my extended family. At that point I have no openmindedness. I feel the same way about the folks who feel Black people are somehow slightly less than human. However in the past I have known and been friends with violently racist white folks. Today if they regaled me with stories of their actions I'd probably call the police, but I was less clear headed as a teenager and in my 20's. One could say I was tolerant to the point of having a lack of principals.

Zari

SilverLady(SO) · Post by **SilverLady(SO)** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:13 am

Absaroka wrote:Another key word in that original purpose was heterosexual. There is a section here for wives, girlfriends and so on. At one point a request was made to amend this to allow all SOs. Specifically that had to do with someones male homosexual partner. It might have been an interesting discussion since I had an impression that it was sometimes a place for female SOs to be candid about their feelings about men in dresses-a gay man might have a different perspective on this.

{Emphasis added by SL.}

Absaroka -

As I recall, you were the one who made this suggestion to me via PM back in November 2010. Correction: that section is only for GG wives and girlfriends, not "... and so on."

We only have 1 acknowledged male SO ('MSO') here and he never requested access to the GG/SO area. Why? Because he knew and understood that the area was strictly off limits to all GMs, regardless of their status (ie MSO, MTF CD/TG, non-op, pre-op, post-op, etc.). Further, all family/friends '(F)' members - as well as all GGs who identify as a FTM CD - are not permitted access to that area, either.

It "might have been an interesting discussion" (if it was ever permitted, and it won't be), and that area is always (not 'sometimes') a place where the GG/SO can be candid about their feelings . . . those discussions would have been ones to which you would never be privy, nor anyone else who was not a GG/SO section member.

Even though this forum has broadened its horizons somewhat, its original and primary focus will always remain as a support forum for the heterosexual MTF crossdresser, their wife/girlfriend, and their family/friends.

In reference to previous posts in this thread and elsewhere: Our rules and guidelines are what they are, and everyone here knows that they are enforced; indeed, that is why the vast majority of our members come here and remain. If anyone feels that they do not like our rules and guidelines and they cannot or will not abide by them . . . well, they also know that they can leave this forum of their own free will; please don't let the cyber door hit you on the backside.

- SL

Amelie-Laveau · Post by **Amelie-Laveau** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:11 pm

And you are quite wrong with what you say. I asked the owners of this site if my boyfriend could join the SO section and I was told no he can't. No one on this forum,, not any of the deep thinkers of this forum thought that this was wrong, cause as long as you all agree that the forum can do what it pleases then it can't possible be wrong or intolerant. Because you say what the rules are and this makes it OK to impose intolerant rules, cause we said so. Sort of like the little boy who while playing with other kids takes the ball and goes home cause no one followed his rules, same thing here,, it's just a game. And to think there are deep, deep thoughts on subjects yet right under their noses is the smell of intolerance. Freakin' unbelievable.

** Redundant quoting removed pursuant to: Etiquette Guidelines - http://crossdressers-haven.com/forums/v ... hp?t=10059

Ralitsa · Post by **Ralitsa** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:20 pm

I think Absaroka explained it pretty well.

You are right of course, Amelie-Laveau, there is an aspect of intolerance to this site, as with life in general. It is in fact absolutely impossible to be tolerant of every single opinion that someone in the world may hold. Unless one is a rock or tree. You yourself are intolerant of many things, so are we all. Like you, I do not associate with people whom I have major philosophical disagreements with, there is no point in it and neither they nor I would enjoy it.

So this site, like everything in life, has certain rules. Either one accepts the rules and stays or one doesn't and leaves. It really doesn't take much deep thinking to figure that out. There are an infinite number of forums that I want nothing to do with, and I have nothing to do with them. So that makes me intolerant of them, but I don't care and neither do they. If they come after me to lynch me, then that is a different matter.

I have a friend in California, near the Bay Area, who is a Republican. She gets harrassed more for being Republican than I do in Wisconsin for being a cross-dresser. So what does that say about "tolerance?" It seems to me like this word "intolerant" gets thrown at anyone who disagrees about anything, as some condemnation for not being politically correct. And like any word that is used by everyone to mean whatever they want it to at that moment, it soon comes to mean nothing at all.

So yeah, there is "intolerance" here, just like the rest of the world. We don't pretend to be perfect, we just like to talk together about our common interests. And we try to maintain some degree of courtesy doing it. Call it "freakin' unbelievable" if you like, but it's really a pretty normal situation, in my experience.

SilverLady(SO) · Post by **SilverLady(SO)** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:42 am

No, Amelie, I am not wrong in what I said, and I stand by everything that I wrote.

We do have one MSO member although he is not an active participant . . . I know this for a fact as I accepted him as a member with the full knowledge of his MSO status.

Lest anyone has forgotten: this is a private forum. Members are not charged any fees, the administrators and moderators are not paid. The only 'rights and privileges' the members have are those granted by the forum's owner, whether personally granted by her or via the rules and guidelines enforced by the administrators and moderators. The owner of this forum "can do what it pleases" and she has the right to make any decision(s) she wants, whether they be in the forum of rules, guidelines, or even in the non-admittance of certain individuals as members.

If it makes one feel better to refer to this as "intolerance" or "freakin' unbelievable" well, that is their right. One may also exercise their right to no longer associate with this forum in any way, shape or form.

Amelie, despite all your complaining about the rules here and how the forum is run - which you have consistently done for many years, now - you still regularly log in and read the posts. Occasionally you will even make a post, but then those posts usually contain your complaints about the forum. You can't have it both ways. If you don't want to abide by the forum's rules and guidelines, just let us know so we can help and ensure that you are no longer able to log into the forum.

- SL

Absaroka · Post by **Absaroka** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:45 am

I was not the person who made the request to have a gay male SO have access to the wives and girlfriends section, as I do not have a male SO. However I did either post or pm SL about the possibility of gay male SOs being included and was most likely supportive of the idea.

That whole topic certainly does open up a can of worms. After all the two most common fears of wives, girlfriends and etc are that their male crossdresser friend is either gay or wants to transition. We seem to have become confortable with having transexuals as members talking about transitioning here, so much so that I sometimes wonder if we give a false impression that far more crossdressers are desirous of this than actually are. At the same time we have not talked much at all about gay crossdressers, probably because in this forum there are not very many such people.

There has been mention by two members who were GG who had male partners who were okay with their dressing in a masculine style, but I don't remember either of their partners joining the forum. Since somewhere I think it says we do in fact welcome both male and female crossdressers, I suppose in the future we could be inundated with GG FTM crossdressers and their male SOs and need to set up a new section for those partners, but it seems unlikely. Likewise if we were to aquire a number of gay male MTF crossdressers, we might need a new section for their partners, but again there have been only a very few such people.

It's really an issue that gets to the heart of so many complicated issues in our society regarding our subject, whatever that subject is exactly (I have to confess I often am not sure what it is) We are a forum where, according to the folks at Tri Ess, men can get in touch with their feminine side. Yet it is found neccesary (and I think reasonable) to have a section where these men can not go, where only "real" women can go. But then we have a number of members who say they are in fact real women who have used surgery to correct an innaccuracy in their bodies. They do not participate in that section, even though they are now "real" women. The rationale would be along the lines that this is for wives and girlfriends and that they are not the wives and girlfriends of the male members here.

Not being either a woman or a partner of either a male crossdresser or any other female permutation of that, I have no need to participate in that section of the forum. And to use another section, the Dear GG section, it is I think telling that so many "answers" there are posted by the men, even though it's a place for us to ask the GGs questions. Maybe we need to be kept out of the wives and girlfriends section simply because we talk too much....Maybe they just need a place to bitch about why in the world would anyone want to wear a bra if they don't have to.

Somewhere in some other forum, I'm sure there is a support group for heterosexual males who have wives who want to transition. I suspect many of us would have very little interest in such a forum.

I think a lot of this comes down to like attracts like. We are mostly a group of middle class men, many but not all middle aged, most of whom like to play dress up (yes the choice of words is deliberate, it describes what I do and if you don't feel they describe you then don't apply them to yourself) and with a strong subset of another group which ranges from folks who surgically transition (and were not really crossdressers except that for a time when they were wearing the "wrong" body) to folks somewhere in between.

Amelie seems to fit into that in between category. She states that she considers herself a woman but is in a homosexual relationship with a man. Which makes perfect sense even as it contradicts themselves. It's reminiscent of Jenny Boylan's comment that even as she became a woman that she did not consider her relationship to the woman she married when she was male to now be a lesbian relationship. Sometimes words just fail.

But the like attracting like is really about something else here I think. I think it's more about middle class folks who try to live pretty far from the edge. We're mostly the folks who go on Dignity Cruises when we are out, not the folks turning tricks to survive. Which is to say that we are striving for respectability for the most part. And that's fine.

Lets never kid ourselves that we make up the whole spectrum though. Folks at this forum make up perhaps two or three colors in the TG rainbow, and not even the more exotic ones. And that's okay too. There have been a lot of posts over the years from folks who were "different" Dolores, DanteCarrie, Eloise, Victoria, Mr. Smith, Amelie. I like those posts and look forward to them. But I probably wouldn't have gotten nearly so much from a forum mostly made up of the other colors in the rainbow.