Talk

[Loretta Ann]

Kersten,

Interesting I was just thinking about sending you a PM to find out how you are, and here you are again.

Thank you for your above post, I can not disagree with anything you said. I will go a little bit farther and state that anyone involved in attempting to change another person, society, or what ever is not a happy person, and can not be a happy person. If one is happy they don't need to change things. The only reason to attempt to change some one or some thing is so that they can be happy.

Other peoples problems are simply not my problems, and I am not responsible for them, or there problems.

The Church as a whole misses this point and has created their own problem with society, They are so busy attempting to change laws and others that they miss what it is all about.

And for me to fall into the trap of attempting to change them, puts me in the same place with them. No better and No happier.

[Elizabeth]

Darlene,

Have you ever heard of the Serenity Prayer?

"Lord give me the strength to accept the things I can not change
This strength to change the things I can, and
The wisdom to know the difference."

I doubt you could have attained the wisdom you have without having heard this before in your life, probably too many times to count.

I may be wrong about this, but It seems like I am getting the message from you, that if you want to change things, you must not be happy. I also feel like you have just blanket accepted you could not be happy if you feel a need to change things, so you have accepted that things are unchangable, rather than summon the strength to change them.

Perhaps you have decided that the potential payoff is too small to make the effort worth it, or that chance of failure is so great, that also it makes it wasted effort. Perhaps it is just "the wisdom to know the difference"

Any enlightenmemts you have on this would be greatly appreciated because I feel very confused about this issue. What am I to accept, and what am I to change? And how do I know the difference?

Thanks in advance.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[CJ]

Hi all,

Elizabeth,

Allow me to point you back to Kersten's post, above. Seek always to promote what builds us up, as both individuals and communities; seek to make what positive contribution you can wherever such building up is either stalled or not happening at all. Do these things only for their own sake, not for any reward you may hope to get out of them. In other words, don't allow your own happiness to depend on your success or failure in these endeavours (except, of course, when it comes to your own self). If you do (stake your peace of mind on results, that is), you'll have a much harder time in being able to tell the difference between the things you can change and those you cannot.

For an excellent, classical take on this kind of stoicism, look up Marcus Aurelius's Meditations and Epictetus's Enchiridion (The Manual). Much of Hellenistic philosophy forms the basis of Christian "politics" (i.e., how can we best govern ourselves?). A lot of this stuff is dry and tough to follow, but the Meditations and the Enchiridion, on the other hand, are a dream to read--simple, powerful, direct. They've been very helpful in my own life.

Ultimately, no other person but yourself can determine whether you can make a difference in people's lives and, if so, what kind of difference that will be.

Darlene,

Well, I guess we come here to the fundamental difference between our outlooks on life (and I'm perfectly fine with that, trust me); you believe that "other people's problems are simply not your problems, and you're not responsible for them or there problems." In a sense, you're right; we're not our brother's keepers. Yet, in my own case, I've come to see that my own life is inextricably bound up with that of my neighbours. Homo sum: humani nihil a me alienum puto. I am a man: nothing human is strange to me. In other words (in the sense the poet Vergil intended the phrase), my being human inevitably leads me to be concerned with the affairs of humans. This is so, precisely, because I'm a part of that group. What affects one, affects all. We're deluding ourselves if we think that isn't so.

In religious terms, it's nearly impossible to reconcile Cain's "Am I my brother's keeper?" with Christ's "Love one another as your Father in heaven loves you."

That all of us are here, on the forum, leads me to believe that we all understand this, to some degree or another. We're here to get and to give support, we're here to build a sense of community, we're here to raise each other up. By listening, by sharing, by offering advice, by laying bare our suffering and our pain, by loving each other. The problems we face (in being human--hell! in being alive!) are universal... although our circumstances and our beliefs might lead us to think so, we can never, in fact, be divorced from each other. Why would we want to, really?

Love,
CJ

[Loretta Ann]

Elizabeth,

Is it possible to be happy in spite of the circumstances of this world? If you believe it is not then you are correct that I believe the need to change others and this world is driven by the need for one to be happy. It is self serving and agenda driven.

I want to be able to enjoy my life today, I have no guarantee that tomorrow will be mine to enjoy.

The majority of Christians IMO miss this point, and find their comfort in banding together in an attempt to change the world, while certain parts of society engage them selves in the same thing.

I am not saying that one should not do what they can to make this a better world. what I am saying is my happiness dose not depend upon it.

[Loretta Ann]

CJ.

Why is it so difficult for you to respect my wish to stay clear of Bible talk?
I don't understand? I have respected your wish to stay clear of that kind of text. What have I done to invite that from you?

Were I to respond to your statement here, (which I could) It would result in a mess further down the road and I am not prepared to go there there.

When Marda involved herself in that kind of activity you were quick to react and that thread ended up being locked. Please help me out here?

Do you have a problem with sharing your life experiences, and how you see things, and letting me decide what I can use and what I can't? Do you have a problem with letting me share mine, and letting others decide what they can use and what they can not? I really don't care if you disagree with me,

I do not want to think the same as you, If I did we would share the same gifts, and there would be no need for both of us to be here. Use your gifts I will use mine, and perhaps we can glean from each other.

There are people in this world who act in ways that makes it un-wise to be involved with them. Call it what you want, but there are people in this world with whom a little bit of distance is wise. And if need be I will divorce myself from them, and I don't mind in the least if they do the same to me.

[Jassmine(SO)]

Howdy Y'all,

After reading this thread, I feel that I must mention that I think all the different opinions that have been expressed hold true. How can this be???

People as a general rule change things when they are unhappy with them or just plain unhappy. A new hair style, or color, a new outfit, or even a rearranging of furniture can lift one's spirits. People also change things when they are happy. For instance, "I feel so good today, I am finally going to try that new nail color, hairstyle, etc.....".

As to being "our brother's keeper". In a sense we are: We indeed should and must take care of our fellow beings. But one must set limitations on this. Some people cannot be helped and for one's own sake should be avoided. We are not "our brother's keeper" in the sense that we can control or change another.

Ah, doncha just love life's paradoxes

*Hugs & Love*