Womens values differ from men's. Agree or not ?.

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Beauty
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Post by Beauty »

Hi Curly,

I think we've always been on the same page about this issue and a few other thing male in contrast, likeness or indifference to females. There's no surprise for me here either. :) I agree with you about some CD'rs putting women on a pedestal. I think sometimes CD'rs do put women on a pedastal. Some even refer to their dressing as a form of idol worship of women. I will admit that's the extreme though. I also wonder if by making women stronger it also justifies dressing to some. (The reason I bolded some is to make sure everyone knows I don't throw us all in the same bucket)

In CJs case I believe CJ is a feminist (I LOVE FEMINISTS!) :) and she's just believes this way period. I don't think her dressing has anything to do with her beliefs. It's impossible to say because she's always going to be a CD'r, but I just believe she feels this way from her spirit and her life knowledge and not just her CD'ing. I love thinking .. until I hurt someone's feelings. :? I hope I wasn't talking about you CJ like you weren't here. We've just really hashed this out before over the year or so we've been here and I feel I know where you've been coming from and I now love and respect you for who you are because of this understanding. I prefaced the last sentence with "where you've been coming from" because I only know what I've learned and not what's to come or what has changed. It may have been over sensitive, but I'd rather you know I'm doing everything in my power not to say anything that would hurt your feelings rather than just say something and not qualify it.

Curly? About you being polite in your response? Ummm.. you are ultra-polite as most of our female members are. :) I wish the testosterone in here was less at times and that there would be more thoughtful wording. :) So I'm writing this paragraph just to let you know in no way, shape or form was your last post even remotely close to being argumentative. :) :) =D> :) :)

On that note. If my post starts any debates I will remove it because this has been a wonderful thread that has promoted open, honest and very friendly exchanges. I wish to add to this conversation and not detract from it. I don't want to be the one to derail this great thread.
((G))
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Terri(SO)
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Post by Terri(SO) »

Okay, I'm giving up on actually putting down all what I've been thinking about this subject, the writing I have to do for work wiped out too many brain cells yesterday and you all keep putting out too many interesting points for me to keep up.

I think also that women and men are more alike than different when we look at individuals. I also think that the differences are not purely from nurture. I know there is something different from day one between boys and girls. I have two older girls and a younger son. I never did much regarding the whole dressing the girls up all frilly because I am not a particularly frilly girl myself. But they drifted toward dolls on their own, playing house and all those things. With my son, from the very beginning I knew it was going to be a whole different experience. I was driving with him in the back car seat, he was just starting to talk. A street racer car growled by (keep in mind NOBODY in my household ever cared one whit about cars) and he yells "OOOH! car Car CAR!!!!!!!!!!! VROOM!!!" And he, like so many little boys, was/is able to turn ANYTHING into a play weapon. This I think is the nature part, aggression.

But on his flip side- I have had teachers and other mothers tell me since he was in early preschool that he is the favorite. He is more able to display empathy than the average little boy. In every class since starting real school he has been the one to tutor the "special needs" kids. The girls love him and he's often the only boy invited to their birthday parties.

But he can surely hold his own out there on the playground during those horrendous dodgeball games too! If that game isn't war on a small scale, I don't know what is!

So, I know that males and females each hold the capacity to live ALL the values high and live in a balanced way. I think I live that way though it takes concerted effort to be in your face assertive "like a man", but I can do it.

I think that women, in general, have endurance that men don't often have. If you look at history you can see how women "hold down the fort", caring for the elderly and the children and the sick for the long term. Man, I think, are get in, make the strike, and get out fast.

There has to be some reason so many cultures have raised women to be demure, the "softer" sex and men to be tough. I think there has to be something in nature that makes us all lean that way. But softer does not mean dumb, I think that's where societal indicators have been wrong. Because a woman is attractive (and blond?) does not mean she's weak and stupid. I am happy with feminism (yes I join CJ in that camp) in that I am allowed to use my brain to make a good living without having to rely on a big strong man to take care of me.

I value the strength and sensitivity in both men and women.
Love is a verb. It's a doing thing. No action, no love! - Terri
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Post by Jassmine(SO) »

Howdy Y'all ..o)..

I have given this subject a lot of thought over the years as I certaintly don't fit in with the "typical female description". I am more logical than emotional, I am assertive and at times I can be very aggressive. I am biologically female but my way of thinking is more male. I have raeched the conclusion that I was made this way. That this is a part of who I am at my core. My father and mother raised me to be strong and indepentdent. They also taught me early on that the only person I could truly depend upon was myself.

So, how does this relate to the subject.....It is my thinking that we shouldn't be looking at the differences between males and females, because I have found that those differences are more along the lines of individual uniquness than sex. Women are capable of great cruelty and men are capable of great compassion. To me it's more a matter of "Who one is" more than what sex they are as to what "values" they embrace.

All humans are composed of yin and yang, capable of kindness and cruelty, able to be compassionate and cold blooded, are logical and emotional, have both light and dark natures.

We are all human and we are all different in our own special ways 8)

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Blessings Eternal, Jassmine

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Post by TamaraSegunda »

It wasn't until Darlene quoted this passage from Sally's last post that I really considered it:
When women hear a new or different idea, they set their doubts and disbelief aside and tune in carefully to what the person is saying; they try to see it from the other person's view point. Women try to understand the other person's opinion as completely and deeply as possible; they cognitively "go with them," wanting to hear the person's views and understand why they think this way. Women seek to make sense of the new idea, to grasp how it can be seen as accurate and useful. This is certainly a "way of knowing" and could be called the "believing approach ." It involves empathizing with the speaker to cooperatively assimilate the truth together, i.e. co-operating.
I still believe that these kinds of generalizations are mostly based on our own experiences, and it's always dangerous to generalize from anecdotal evidence. On the other hand, it's often been pointed out that stereotypes are seldom without some grain of truth. And that brings me (at last) to my point:

Not that long ago, I witnessed a perfect example of that "believing approach." I was eating lunch at work with a group of six woman engineers and technicians, all of whom were very bright, and all of whom practice a profession grounded in empirical fact. Almost out of the blue, one of these folks (who has a Masters in Computer Science) told us the story of her aunt who could see auras around people, and who occasionally received messages from the dead. Not only did no one roll her eyes, every single one of them went on to tell her own stories of supernatural events that had occurred in the lives of people that they knew. I really can't image a group of men with similar backgrounds responding in the same way.

So, thanks, Sally. I think I'm starting to see what you're talking about.
Love,
Tamara Segunda
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LINUS: Some of those old wives were pretty sharp.
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Post by Curly(SO) »

OK...I admit I do this also, I will 'go with them' when I'm having a conversation, unless, of course, I really have a strong opinion the other way. It is a way of showing empathy with the person you are having a conversation with, but do men really not do this? I can't say I have noticed that they don't. I don't find my conversations with men that much different that with women. (and conversations between men that I've listened into) I'm sure I would have noticed if there was much difference. :?

Love,
Curly(SO)
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Post by Loretta Ann »

Hi all,

Jassmine wrote;
It is my thinking that we shouldn't be looking at the differences between males and females, because I have found that those differences are more along the lines of individual uniquness than sex. Women are capable of great cruelty and men are capable of great compassion. To me it's more a matter of "Who one is" more than what sex they are as to what "values" they embrace.

All humans are composed of yin and yang, capable of kindness and cruelty, able to be compassionate and cold blooded, are logical and emotional, have both light and dark natures.
I could not agree with that more than I do. That has been my total experiance.

Abuse knows no boundaries, and finds itself dwelling in both sexes, probably easier than compassion, caring etc.. Being that the latter requires a higher level of maturity, before it is able to make it's self comfortably at home.

Love Darlene.
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Post by CJ »

Hi all,

Again, very interesting posts. 8)

It's odd how I find myself leaning towards agreement with everyone on this, even with those who hold views contrary to (or, at the very least, different than) mine.

Yes, our own experience is often a guide in the shaping of our views. Can it ever be otherwise? Well, yes, it can be otherwise. The experience of others has much to teach us, as well (a good example of this is the influence all of you--Curly, Violet, Beauty, Jassmine, Sally, Terri, etc., etc.--are having on me just by sharing your views with me, with all of us).

Beauty is right; I am a bit of a feminist. As such, I guess I do have an agenda (the revaluation and social "reinscription" of women's experiences along with the "reading" of cultural practices in light of that experience). Still, I consider myself more a humanist than a feminist. My being a crossdresser or a transgendered person has had more of an effect on what it means to me to be human than it has on what it means to be a man or a woman.

Granted, no single human life--male or female--is ever generalizable. But we must try anyway, musn't we? Philosophy and science, for example, are just such attempts at generalization, at finding ways to glean general principles from particular circumstances. No social program, no cultural orientation, no scientific endeavour, no "society-building project" (as we call it, here) has ever been formulated and put into practice on the basis of a single person's experience. This is even less doable than it is to have our being in society on the basis of generalities (while still attending to individuality, of course).

While it may be possible, as Beauty suggests, that my own interest in the experiences of women stems from my being a CD (and, if I dig deep enough, I'm forced to admit there's a kernel of truth to that), I don't think my feminist tendencies are the result of my being a man who likes to pretend he's a woman so much as they are the result of my listening to the experience of the women I know in my life (and of my trying to see that experience through their own eyes). I put nobody on a pedestal--man or woman. Doing so only dehumanizes a person. We do this, for example, when we're madly in love. Anecdote: twenty years ago, Marian, a good friend--and the only woman I've ever been in love with--once told me: "It's not me that you love, it's some ideal, some fiction, some fantasy, that you have in your own mind. You don't know me." Of course, she was right. Of course, being madly in love, I didn't care. And, of course, many a crossdresser (and many a man, I'll add) look at women, generally, in this very manner. I don't. Not anymore. In the end, women are human beings; men are human beings. The "Venus and Mars" stuff isn't very appealing to me; it's a cheap enhancement of the putative differences between the sexes, rather than a vision of what possibly unites us.

Still, having said all this, I've moved often and long enough in the circle of women to believe that there are, indeed, differences between the sexes. These differences find their source in biology but reach their full expression in cultural matters. That Terri's daughters, for example, found dolls, and that her son found zooming cars, very much on their own without any prompting from her is but a sliver of evidence that points to this (and it doesn't mean that they cannot also enjoy more gender-neutral play or exhibit non-gender-stereotypical behaviour). Most of my friends are, and were, women. Yes, many of them are, and were, feminists. All have been role models for me. They all, without exception, possess a quiet, caring, patient strength that I don't often see in most men that are part of my life. Okay, so that would be my bad; maybe I need to develop friendships with men who exhibit these qualities as well. Point them out to me and I will.

Marian's mother, a 75-year old great-grandmother, a published writer, an environmental activist, a radical feminist, was recently released from jail. She spent many months, on different occasions, in detention for having repeatedly stood in the path of logging trucks bearing away trees cut down from a clear-cut old-growth forests. I've heard what she has to say. She's a role model to me.

My own mother, whose beauty prevented men from seeing her as just the person she was (and is), left the world of men behind. From Playboy bunny (way back when) to home tutor for the elderly and the disabled and to arts and crafts pioneer--a true teaching soul, she is--her life is an example to me. It was her own stint at the Playboy club that first got me interested in reading Gloria Steinem's "I Was A Playboy Bunny." From there, it was but a short step to delve into the works of Susan Brownmiller, Germaine Greer, Simone de Beauvoir, Shulamith Firestone, Andrea Dworkin, and other first-generation feminists. What I heard women say about their own lives in these books profoundly changed me. Their plea for the humane treatment of all human beings, regardless of sex, remains a true inspiration to me.

My friend Marie, who works as a mental health social worker (a field, incidentally, where women outnumber men 10 to 1--something to ponder), is the most amazing "affective" multi-tasker--something I believe women are much better at than men--I've ever had the privilege of encountering. Her tremendous efforts in fixing what's so desperately gone wrong in her own family doesn't prevent her from attending to the oh! so human difficulties her clients are encountering in their own lives. I can only fantasize that I'll ever get for myself even half her strength, a strength wrapped in a grace that's anything but "unfeminine." She's a role model to me.

And so on, and so on.

In the end, although I'm very much a person-identified person, I remain a woman-identified man. Of course, it colours the way I look at the world, both generally and in my views and opinions regarding the relationship between the sexes. There's nothing wrong with that. On the one hand, males (starting with my own father) have largely been emotionally absent from my life and, on the other hand, I've simply come to prefer the ways women tend to relate to others in the world around them. Yes, I'm willing to allow that there are exceptions on either side of the gender divide as to what those ways represent. I'm not a "black and white" kind of person. Even my "ideal" type of woman (as a life partner) is somewhat peculiar: I keep an eye out for women who are somewhat androgynous in their personality, in that they don't cleave to traditional notions of femininity and they're not afraid to express character traits usually associated with masculinity. I want to partner myself with a whole person, not an image, not a fiction, not a fantasy.

Anyway, all, sorry I got so personal. I'll admit, though, that it was fully my intention to do so. :P I've come to cherish the whole lot of you. Your quirks, your idiosyncrasies, your own ways of being in the world, have changed me far more than you'll ever realize. I'm deeply humbled and deeply grateful. Thanks.

Love,
CJ
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Post by Loretta Ann »

Hi CJ.

I appreciate the fact that you have opened up here and allowed yourself to become some what vunerable. It helps me to get a better understanding of who you are, and how your experiances have influenced your life.
It is very evident that we see the world through different eyes, which has been clarified by your statement
maybe I need to develop friendships with men who exhibit these qualities as well. Point them out to me and I will.
I have been left with the question as why you do not need to have those type of women pointed out to you also? I have found there are indeed men who demonstrate those qualities, and I do not have a problem indentifing them. In fact I know more men who (are able to demonstrate that they) care very deeply about others than I do women. However that is probably due to the fact that I have allowed more men than women the opportunity to demonstrate those qualities to me.

And that is just my experience.

Love Darlene.
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Post by CJ »

Hi all,

Darlene,

That's a very good point. You know, I'm not entirely sure why. To be honest (and as I mentioned in another post), I do know men who exhibit these qualities (as well as women who exhibit a lack of them, by the way). But this is a fairly recent development in my life, my meeting sensitive males who are possessed of this quiet, patient, caring strength. All of them are colleagues and I think this is pretty significant. For most of my life on the job market, I've worked in the service industry, managing restaurants and bookstores. They're very competitive and high-stress environments where the bottom line is always profit and where the bottom line always prevails over the human needs of employees. (Again, an aside: although there are some women who work in these fields, they generally have to emulate the aggressive ways of men in order to succeed and they can only succeed so far before bumping their heads on that infamous "glass ceiling"--the board of directors of Chapters, for example, has only two women to its ten men. Hopefully, that's changed since Heather Riesman, owner of the Indigo Books chain of stores, bought Chapters, a couple of years ago). So, as I said, in the field I now work in--where human values matter more than profit--I have been meeting men who care deeply about the welfare of others. Still, as I stated previously when I spoke of my friend Marie, men who work in this environment are the exception, not the rule.

Let me give you an example, drawn from my own field. You'd think psychiatrists (most of whom are male) are just such caring men. Well, that may certainly be the case for some but, if so, they certainly have tremendous amounts of difficulty expressing that attitude to their patients. Instead, they focus on diagnostics and treatments... clearcut strategies that eclipse any need to deal with their patients' eewwww!... emotions. Why? Do they fear to be thought of as less objective somehow, less therapeutic, if they start showing they have some understanding of the human needs (social, psychological, and emotional) of these people rather than just their pharmacological needs? I don't get it. My own father (a psychologist by trade) once told me that a psychiatrist's actual job is to compare the symptoms a patient presents with a list of symptoms found in the Big Book of Mental Illness (the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistic Manual--now in its fourth incarnation), and follow the dotted line with his index finger to the accompanying list of recommended treatment options. "What's your disease? Oh, okay. Here's your cure." Of course, this is an oversimplification; not all psychiatrists treat their patients as if they were merely a complex of symptoms, rather than flesh-and-blood, feeling, thinking beings. And I'm sure most psychiatrists care about their patients (although, having myself witnessed, on a few occasions, how psychiatrists treated my clients--one was even in the habit of falling asleep while we were in his office--my faith that this is so is definitely not unshakeable); my question is why are they so afraid to show it? Therapists, on the other hand (where the gender balance tips much more in favour of women), are less afraid to deal with their clients on a human to human level. Authority--very much a "male" thing, whether based on attitude or genuine expertise--has largely been taken out of the picture (with the exception of the need to consider the client the best authority on his or her own life). Again, like I said in the "natural superiority" thread, the focus is on consensus care rather than interventions based on principles and dogmas, however highly regarded these may be.

I think a lot of the objections that are coming in this thread to my way of looking at these things (and, yes, I'm okay with the fact that it's merely my way of looking at things) stem from the belief I see this as a black-or-white issue. I don't. I've gone to great lengths to make it plain that I'm talking about generalities, tendencies, and predispositions, not "just the facts, Ma'am." :P Facts are fun; you can make them do a lot of neat tricks. But feelings matter, too. Is this controversial, this statement?: "In our culture, men are generally not encouraged to explore their emotional natures." If not, why aren't men encouraged to do so? Are we afraid of digging up "snips and snails, and puppy dog tails"? of exposing the roots of male violence? What are we afraid of, here?

Anyway, again, you can probably tell this subject fires me up. When I'm fired up, I tend to lay it on a little thick. Sorry. :oops: I'll calm down. Promise. 8-[

Love,
CJ
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Loretta Ann
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Post by Loretta Ann »

Good point CJ. I agree with your description of psychiatrists.

Certain professions attract certain types of individuals, and it is unlikely you will find many Roses among them.

It reminds me of the song entitled...looking for Love in all the wrong places.

Love Darlene.
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Post by Jamie Ann »

CJ wrote:You'd think psychiatrists (most of whom are male) are just such caring men. Well, that may certainly be the case for some but, if so, they certainly have tremendous amounts of difficulty expressing that attitude to their patients. Instead, they focus on diagnostics and treatments... clearcut strategies that eclipse any need to deal with their patients' eewwww!... emotions. Why? ... Therapists, on the other hand (where the gender balance tips much more in favour of women), are less afraid to deal with their clients on a human to human level.
     Psychiatrists are medical doctors, whose training encourages seeking solutions to emotional problems through medications or surgery, based on the assumption that mental problems have a physical cause. These comments bring to mind the 1998 Robin Williams film, “Patch Adams,” which purportedly was based on the real-life case of Hunter Adams, a troubled man who voluntarily committed himself to a mental institution. Once there, he found that he was able to help his fellow inmates through humor and compassion. Thus inspired, he left the asylum and entered medical school, where he earned top grades. As he got past the early years when the curriculum was mostly academic subjects, however, and into the later years when working with patients was the main emphasis, he found that the professors and administrators had a callous philosophy favoring an arms-length attitude toward the patients, ignoring their emotional needs and the quality of their lives. “Patch” Adams was determined to find a better way to help them, although the consequences of his defiance got him into trouble.

     Getting back to the original question of whether men and women have different values, this illustrates my earlier point that we actually are talking about cultural orientations, not gender — in this particular instance, the subculture of medical colleges and the subculture of clinical psychology programs. Any correlation between such values and gender is a spurious correlation, based on who has traditionally been admitted to such programs. Once in a training program, either the student comes to accept the prevailing orientation or else she or he is likely to be encouraged to leave — as “Patch” Adams was. I think you would find female physicians (including psychiatrists) to have orientations similar to those of male physicians, and male therapists to have orientations similar to those of female therapists.
Take care,

Jamie Ann
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Post by Kersten Lee »

Hi All,

Thank you CJ for sharing more of your life with us.

I agree mostly with Sally's original post. It is a generalization.

All the posts were great and insightful. I got men are from mars and women are from venus from a used book store the other day. I started to read it and thought it was a joke because of the sweeping generalizations about the differences between women and men. As the generalizations continued I became shocked. It described the way I think and feel as a woman and the problems I get into trying to comunicate with my wife who in this book fits the male characterizations. I was shocked that this old book talked to me as a woman.

These feelings I have and the way I process information decidedly lean to the feminine generalizations. I have been coming to terms with who I am through a therapy process with a woman. In conversations at work I relate easily with most women. With men, when I speak my mind, they look at me uncomfortably. There are only a couple men with whom I can talk about empathy for others situations and my own feelings and conflicts.

As for experience, the new company that bought us out last August seems much more atuned to social complexities and the results in the work place and the world. They gave all of us the oportunity to contribute to the tsunami disaster. They would match everyone's contribution up to 1000 dollars and internationally to 1 million dollars total. Yes, it probably may profit the company in the long term, but I won't say that is bad. The thing is so many men have come out bluntly that the company is a joke, giving money to foreigners when we will receive no bonus this year. One man commented, how would he know the company would not just keep his contribution. I told him he was paranoid. The women I have heard talking have been in support and the couple women I have asked were in favor and proud of the new company that own us.

In the e-mail, to all of us, the last line of the company request stated, "Giving is the right thing to do". presented by a male company representative. Generally, I find the statement feminine in nature but of course not excluding kinder males of the species.

I agree with who ever said, women must adapt and be more male in nature to compete in a male dominated society. I have seen this many times. These women could also be more male in attitude like my wife and could also explain their successes. Rare is the women who can take charge and lead using the generally kinder female attributes. I refuse ever to believe the only way to succeed is by pissing on everyone in their climb up the social ladder. I guess I identify with the women's movement.

I used to put all women on the pedistal. Through a lot of work and examining my beliefs with all of you and my therapist, I think I have removed my blinders. All women are not perfect and deserving of my unexamined exhaltation. Neither are all men uncaring vicious brutes.

Thanks to Sally and all of you to give me the opportunity to explore these ideas.

Kersten
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Post by Curly(SO) »

I've been pondering over the weekend why I am troubled by the idea that women are more caring, patient, etc etc...I think that maybe my worries lie in what happens when we don't live up to these ideals as women.

'Putting feminist cap on'. bla*bla*bla
I'm only speaking from my experience of life in my little corner of England , so things may be different where you are, but when a woman does something to fall off that pedestal of the nurturing, compassionate kind, what happens? What happens when a woman walks out and leaves her family? What happens when a woman is promiscuous, or has an affair? She is judged more harshly, demonized even...after all, men are 'bad'...but women hmm.. you know where I'm coming from?!

I am also troubled by the notion that if I am to be successful, I must take on 'male attributes'. I found a quote recently about Margaret Thatcher by Ronald Reagon...something like 'Mrs. Thatcher..the best MAN in Britain!' Why should a woman lose her feminine identity when she is powerful? Indeed, why should a man be emasculated when he is seen demonstrating 'traditional female qualities'? Maybe men are scared of showing their compassionate side for fear of being emasculated.

I don't see how attributing certain characteristics to each gender is helpful in the fight for Equality. We should not forget how recently women have had the right to vote in many of our countries, and why we were not allowed that right before...because we were DIFFERENT?

I don't intend to offend anyone here, just my view on the subject, and it has been a very thought-provoking thread!

Love,
Curly(SO)

P.S. Will someone please kick me if I ever jump to Mrs. Thatcher's defence again :mrgreen:
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Post by Jassmine(SO) »

Howdy Y'all ..o)..

Curly Wrote:
Why should a woman lose her feminine identity when she is powerful?
Excellent point Curly! =D>

I so totally agree. !!!yes!!! I do not think that a woman has to give up or bury her feminine identity to be powerful.

I am a very strong,capable, powerful woman, and I haven't sacrificed one iota of feminine nature to be so. And I am sure I am not the only one. Pardon my humbleness :wink:

Ah, I just thought of a good example of a powerful yet, in my opinion, very feminine woman (and I so cannot think of her name) Donald Trump's "right hand woman". That is a pretty powerful spot to be in and she does a marvelous job filling it and still being quite the lady 8)

*Hugs & Love* @->->- *^^*
Blessings Eternal, Jassmine

"Love is unconditional acceptance. That quality is also our essential nature, who we really are."
--Peter Shepherd
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