guilt & shame article

[Tekla]

I never said that one is better or worse. There are differences - some seem better or worse, and that's a matter of perspective more than anything else. That I found much to admire in other cultures and nations, and in some cases even grow to love, does not mean I would want to live there. Nor is my choice of location - San Francisco and the Bay Area - any sort of "its better or worse" than other places. Its just a better fit for me than rural Alabama might be on all sorts of levels, TG being only one of those.

I was just trying to point out that the concept of 'innocent civilians' does not work in a modern context. War is waged by nation states, and to be a member of that state, is to be at war - in the more modern context, its waged by cultures, to the same effect. To be a member of that culture is to be in that war. One persons concept of heroic sacrifice is another man's suicide, in the same sense that one man's terrorist is someone else's freedom fighter. Like any championship football game, how good the refs call was depends largely on which side of the field you are sitting on. To some they might be attacking civilians, to others they are attacking those who invaded and took their land and oppress their people.

Nobody's right when everyone is wrong.

And to ignore problems in our own society and culture is to prevent solution of those problems. I don't think anyone wants that. How to get there (and even what those problems are) well, that's the rub.

[Absaroka]

Tekla wrote: And to ignore problems in our own society and culture is to prevent solution of those problems. I don't think anyone wants that. How to get there (and even what those problems are) well, that's the rub

I agree completely and one of my big frustrations is that so often trying to adress our own problems is labeled as hating America. Nothing could be further than the truth.

My personal opinion of war is that it is conclusive evidence that our leaders have failed us. I am speaking here not of America's leaders but of humanities leaders. Any time they can say to us "we the leaders have failed to agree and the best solution we can come up with is to have you kill each other while we watch" that is about as big a failure as anyone can imagine.

To be sure some have a bigger part in the failure than others. But no one leads in a vacuum. For example (now here I get sent off to hot topics, perhaps rightly so) I would say that the current Iraqui war is a product of Saddams complete and utter failure as a human being, whereas Goerge Bush has merely showed a failure of imagination and patience in failing to find another way to deal with Saddam. As Yamamoto said when told that his plan for war was brilliant, a brilliant man would have found away to avoid the war. By this I do not mean peace through apeasement and surrender to the terrorists. We elect our leaders to have good ideas and in general war is not a good idea.


Absaroka

[Tekla]

Well, since we were talking about people who won the Medal of Honor, there were 19 people who have won it twice. One of them was Smedley Butler, a Major General in the U.S. Marine Corps. Look him up, Google him, whatever - he wrote some very interesting things about war. Back when I taught my students had a very hard time believing that a General in the Marine Corps would write what he did. On the other hand, who else knew the truth? Sadly, I think its still true.

[Jeannie]

Hi Girls

You can talk about wars and killing until you're blue in the face and it won't make any difference. Humans are the animals and animals are the humans. They always have lived in peaceful coexistence. They only kill for survival or to feed their young unlike us humans who kill for greed, power, religion, hatred, and even for fun. The human race will ultimately destroy itself. We are all on the highway to Hell. It's a juggernaut that can't be stopped. Life is a carnival. Enjoy your short ride. Politics and religion will be the catalist of our extinction. I'll bet you 50 bucks. Any takers?

Love
Jeannie

[Tekla]

Sure, $50 on greed doing us in long before religion or political stuff. But we've made it this far, we'll keep going.

[Virginia]

Tekla,

Thou and sister Jeannie, speak the truth. Greed!!!!! Just look at our Congress!!! Can you find a group of more greedy, self-centered, ill-informed, dare I say, idiots to have ever wielded power!

Their first and only thought, I would venture to say, almost to a member, is to get re-elected!!! Whatever lies, half-truths, fabrications, twists it takes.

We are "at war" with radical Islam and half or more of Congress will not admit that those folk do not want to negotiate anything, all they want is that anyone who does not condone their radicalism, be dead!!!! That is a heck of point to have to negotiate with!!!!!!

I won't even start on these individual politicians.

Good posts, ladies

Virginia

[Tekla]

Well the only thing worse then Congress is the Administration. Given that both of them have approval ratings in the toilet, people seem to agree.

And we are not at war with Islam, perhaps parts of it, some followers - but, mostly its oil, its greed. Where has all this money gone? Look how high gas is. Who is making that money? Islam or Shell? We could leave them alone anytime we want to give up cars and walk.

If we were not building military bases in their nations, they might hate us a lot less - or at the very least, be willing to do a lot less about it. And if we would not take kindly to say Saudi Arabia building military bases in say, Ohio, whey should they feel any different. Remember, OSB has not done anything once Bush caved in and took the bases out of The Kingdom - out of their holy land. That's a fact.

But its greed. Record profits for Blackwater, Halliburton, and the oil companies. Read two time medal of honor winner and Marine General Smedley Butler. Nothing has changed.

[SilverLady(SO)]

This thread's topic is "guilt and shame" - but it has segued into a political discussion that has no relation to the topic, no matter how you slice it . . . and we all know that political discussions do not belong in this section of the Forum.

It's time to bring the thread back on topic.

Thank you.

- SL

[SilverLady(SO)]

Let me remind you that the thread's topic is guilt and shame . . . regarding those in the CD community.

This is a link to an article I found to be interesting from a psychology viewpoint only. It is not intended as any kind of political statement in any way.

There is a recurring mention of guilt and shame regarding those in the CD community and mentioned frequently here. I think in a broader sense the article describes a human nature condition with various flavors. - - {Emphasis added by SL}

As I said before, it is time to bring this thread back on topic, and keep the politics (and religion) to a bare minimum in this particular section of the Forum.

- SL

[Sylvia H]

Wow!
Stopped in to seewhat Ive missed.
Ive been gone for 2 weeks and this thread took nearly 2 months to turn into something I never intended.
I think you called it right SL.

Nice to be back!!
xoxo
Sylvia

[Tekla]

Keeping religion and politics out of a thread about guilt and shame is like having a discussion about railroads where you can't talk about trains or tracks.