First Admendment - Freedom of Speech

[Jamie Ann]

I have to go with the mods on this one. And I think that the concept of the Mordor thread is in fact beneficial to all of us. Each one of us has the choice as to whether or not we want to participate. We can choose to have access to the Mordor thread, or we can choose not to. Having the freedom of choice is one of the greatest freedoms of all.

On this particular issue, you do not rock, Lorna. You are siding with those who believe that second-class citizenship is OK. If your attitude had prevailed, there would never have been a Civil Rights Movement. Martin Luther King, Jr., would have been assassinated long before 1968. Beauty is a social conservative who would never have supported the quest for justice. Mordor is relegating those who want to discuss real issues, as oppose to “gaming” diversions, to a second-class citizenship. If you really believe what you have said, you are diametrically opposed to the position of Martin Luther King, Jr., would have taken. And you should be ashamed of yourself.

[Beauty]

Hi Jamie Ann,

I've been pretty beaten up in this thread by you. Can you please stop. You have no idea about my ideas in real life you are making rather harsh statements about me and others based on the way we post on a board and the way I run the forum. It is also not fair to talk about Lorna in a way that wasn't very respectful. I will let Lorna deal with you about that though. I promise not to edit her retort.

The above statement is not true about what I would have supported. I don't care what I'm called, but you have been riding me pretty hard over the last few months. In my decisions thread I was very candid about why I do what I do. In another thread you got very upset with me in I apologized and still you seem to keep throwing very hurtful words my way.

I will apologize again for hurting your feelings. I do not mean to be mean, hurtful, biased, or anything. I protect the forum the best way I know how. You, as a member, have no idea what goes on behind the scenes and how much I bite my tongue. You also have no idea of the way I'm discriminated against daily and the way I handle that. I can respect, from the presentation I give of myself on the forum, why you think what you think. It still doesn't hurt any less when I read the things you say. I've tried not responding, but the hurtful words seem to not be stopping.

Your posts over time have hurt me so much I showed my wife this morning. She was proud of me for not lashing out and has suggested that may a final apology and reaffirmation that this is my job here is in order. This is very hard to do because I'm incredibly not happy, but she's right and so I offer another apology that doesn't have any "buts" in it.

I'm sorry whatever I have done to moderate the boards and remove your posts, edit your posts, remove your posts and suggest you replace them elsewhere, or move your posts and whatever disgust, anger, distrust, angst, rolling of eyes, or dislike of me has caused.

I understand you don't like me for what I do here. I doubt it's personal. It hurt when you mentioned MLK and referenced me the way you do. I go out of my way not to express my political or social positions here when they don't relate to CD'ing. I love Martin Luther King. My parents and myself were very heavily involved in the Civil Rights movement. When I was 6 I remember attending my first movie showing MLK. My dad organized the showing in a small community church. I got to see what MLK meant and his tragic death. When I saw his story and his death, at 6, I was like, "Thanks Dad! Isn't this kind of heavy?" Then I thought about it more on the way home and realized he was right to fight for civil rights the way he did. I also swore my life to protecting what is right. Martin Luther King is my ultimate hero and I live my life everyday in a way I'd hope he approve of. I know more about him than I know about my grand father, who I also admired because like MLK he was a preacher and also a great hero to African Americans. Your words pierced me like a knife into a watermelon (sorry I ate watermelon last night and couldn't think of a better analogy). Anyway, I hope this clarifies my feelings about him. I will lay down my life for what is right and that's based on him. MLK also says you can only tell how good a person is when they are at their worst. I hope he'd be proud of the way I'm handling this.

I said Lorna rocked because she saw both sides of the argument and spoke her mind. She didn't disagree or agree with either side, she said I see both points and I thought she did an outstanding job of being supportive to everyone. I can draw a parallel in her understanding of both sides to something MLK did in the boycotts made so popular by Rosa Parks. MLK went into the township and showed that he understood both sides of whites not wanting to give up their perceived right to have a seat over a black person, but that he also knew it was unconstitutional. Still he negotiated and made it so that blacks still went to the back of the bus first, but when the bus got full they wouldn't have to give up their seats. He showed an understanding of both sides. I love that in a personality and so that's why I said she rocks. She really does. I hope that clarifies why I said that and is understandable.

I wish you the best and I'm asking you to please stop talking about me or referring to me when you don't really know any other side of me than what I show here on the forum. I promise you that is just the storefront. There is more to me than a store front.

Again I apologize for my horrid part in this personal nightmare. I wish you the best and hope that you can respect my wishes and that you will respect my decisions on the forum.

Beauty

[DonnaT]

mmmph , http://crossdressers-haven.com/forums/v ... php?t=3810

[Lorna]

On this particular issue, you do not rock, Lorna. You are siding with those who believe that second-class citizenship is OK.

What the heck are you talking about, Jamie?

Putting your personal attack aside, what is wrong with people choosing for themselves whether or not to participate? If folks don’t want to talk about politics, they can choose NOT to. End of story. And the mods here didn't have to supply us with a Mordor folder at all. Yet somehow from that you managed to pull all this nonsense about “second class citizenships” out of nowhere. What exactly does that have to do with anything I said?

If your attitude had prevailed, there would never have been a Civil Rights Movement. Martin Luther King, Jr., would have been assassinated long before 1968. Beauty is a social conservative who would never have supported the quest for justice.

You're just not getting it. It seems to me that you cannot distinguish between a public US institution and a privately owned internet message forum. This is a crossdressing forum, not some municipal government forum. If it were, then you'd be right. However, this is NOT. We don't pay taxes towards this forum, you're not in Congress here, this is not Capitol Hill, nor is this the Supreme Court. As much as I am for civil rights, I also stand by what I said. If you're a member of a forum (owned, paid for, maintaned, and moderated by private individuals) THEY make the rules.

If you enter someones home, would you jump up and down on their couch with muddy shoes? Hey... it's not illegal... it falls under Freedom of Expression... so why not?

The HOMEOWNERS set the rules. What part of this concept do you not understand? I don't see why you just fail to see the difference. And that was EXACTLY the point I was trying to make.

Mordor is relegating those who want to discuss real issues, as oppose to “gaming” diversions, to a second-class citizenship.

Citizenship?! Will you listen to yourself? I had no idea the this forum was a country!

And just exactly how does Mordor "regulate"? Does it "regulate" any more than the other folders? Why do you feel that it does? Do you have any proof? Many privately owned forums don't even have a thread or a folder where people can openly discuss political issues at all.

If you really believe what you have said, you are diametrically opposed to the position of Martin Luther King, Jr., would have taken. And you should be ashamed of yourself.

AGAIN: If you walk into someone's home, the HOMEOWNER sets the rules. This forum is the equivalent of a private home, since it is PRIVATELY owned and maintained. The owner also has the right to choose who gets to come in, and who does not. And I regret to inform you that there will be no "Election Day" for new admins. The current mods are pretty much here to stay.

Many of you have been blasting this forum and its mods for several months now. If so many folks are THAT unhappy with how things are run here, then why not just leave?

If this were a public municipal forum funded by our tax dollars, then yes you would have an argument. Try and understand the difference.

[GalicianGirl(SO)]

I will keep this short and to the point...

I Just don't understand why some members have to be so mean and hateful. This is suppose to be a support forum and yes, I would consider it private since registration is required. So please, take a chill pill!!

I wish everyone would just let Beauty do her job as an Administrator and Moderator. She is doing a wonderful job and I stand behind her 100%. Sometimes I think she may be a little too easy...

We will continue to keep this forum moderated and things that are not acceptable will be removed or edited.

Sharon(SO)

[Jamie Ann]

If this were a public municipal forum funded by our tax dollars, then yes you would have an argument. Try and understand the difference.

Dear Lorna,

     Nothing I have said, contrary to the premise of your post, has been about the Constitutional (or legal) rights of Shannon, Sharon (SO), Beauty, or anyone else. “Second class citizen” is a metaphor. If the posts of some people are routinely put in an out-of-view location, that is not too unlike the practice of serving some people at the “colored window” at the back of a restaurant, and justifying this by saying, “I own the restaurant and I make the rules!” Although that was legal at one time, it still was objectionable—especially to those who were not permitted to eat in the main part of the restaurant. My use of the term “member” is borrowed from the owners themselves—check out the menu at the top of this page, where the registered users are referred to as “members.” There has been no suggestion in my usage of that term that our tax dollars are involved and hence that the laws applying to municipal facilities apply here.

     The argument is about propriety, not legality. My past objections to “Land of Mordor” were that it seemed to be attracting too many persons whose interest in crossdressing was uncertain at best—they never took part in discussions of gender-related topics—yet they were flooding the board with commentaries that could have been taken from the literature of anti-government militias. I do not, however, think that all “political” discussion is inappropriate. If “Land of Mordor” were retired and a new area called “Crossdressing and the Culture War” were created, then we could discuss some of today’s most significant crossdressing issues—without relegating such discussions to a sort of “purgatory.” That would not in any way harm the “support” aspects of this forum (which I have consistently agreed are useful).

Best regards,
Jamie

[Paige]

Read up a couple of posts, the one from Sharon. Jamie, we have heard your opinion, may I repeat, your OPINION. Thank you for expressing it. I do not agree with you. Nuff said. Lets now stop this useless bickering and sometimes, just plain nastiness.

Thank you,
Love Paige

[Danielle La Belle]

Pssst...Girls,....it's just me.....Danielle Marie... shhhhh, is it safe yet.

I am on my tippy-toes. Nobody shout at the same time or Mom and dad will wake and I will be grounded!

I am here once again as a matter of courtesy since I posted this thread. I should have yelled, "Fire in the hole," as they did in the war movies, but, in real life, the soldier that yelled that famous phrase was often shot and killed by the enemy for standing up and yelling...!



I am a volunteer editor for the Open Directory Project,
http://www.dmoz.org

There are around 62,000 volunteer editors around the globe at this time. Our principle job is to [edit] the 10's of thousands of web site submissions that are sent into the editors database for review before being put on-line with the public National database. This "search engine" is found throughout the world in many public libraries. People count on us reviewing web pages for content and making sure anything remotely adult is sent to our sister site...for Adult material.

My point: there are rules and they are defined for us by Netscape Employees that run the database. We follow a science called "Oncology" and apply the written rules to every submitted web site.

With 62,000 editors, there obviously needed to be some concrete rules of application and grammatical definiton. I follow those rules, as anyone would if they wish to remain an editor for the organization.

I never intended to be a demonstrator. My intention was to establish the fact that we would be [edited] et al [censored] for the use of unknown words and phrases that may or may not be considered negative depending on where you were raised, what you believe etc.

Beauty is applying her understanding of the English language, and the verbal and subtle meanings of words and phrases. I understand that. It was just my observation that her understanding is limited to her experience, education, and personal beliefs which are all or for the most part established during our period of youth. We carry this information through life and rarely if ever change what we believe to be true and fair.

There was a time that as a Roman catholic that the Church would rate movies. There were 4 sections in the [A] category. B = Bad. C=Condemed......
Simple. Today 95% of all movies judged by that 1960 standard would be [C] and some perhaps beyond condemed. The rules were set and you knew the rules. The church would rate the movies based on the obvious and sometimes the not so obvious. Words, could spell doom for a movie even if there was little of the obvious stuff that they would look for.

There was great power in the rating system as the majority of Roman Catholics followed the rating guide. The power came from the people. They obeyed the rules. We always had to eat fish on Friday, no meat. One day, bingo, we could now eat meat on Friday as meat was a staple food in the USA and not fish. A big win for the "Beef People" at Winn Dixie and alike.

My point: Rules change as people change. People come and go on a regular basis on this planet. As the majority spoke up, for better or worse, so changed the church on many issues. While they have held stead fast on issues of abortion and birth control (they are in the business of people so new babies are welcome), what's good for the goose, etc.

An editor by description typically, ensures that a written piece of information is accurate, that it will fit into the space provided by the paper, magazine etc, and that the topic is within the publishers guidelines. Writers know those guidelines and pretty much stick to them.

I think that [censorship], is editing on the fly. Real-time editing is complicated and subject to mis-understandings. The next real-time edit, may be incorrect as the meaning is subtle and not fully understood. There are plenty of "bad" words out there. But, everyword, is just a collection of letters in a specific order. We then assign meaning to that word. We all agree somewhat in time, about the meaning. [Phat] is a new word that stumped me but it is popular with teens and I guess it means, "good." That's "cool et al kool, et al kewl I suppose. Oh, by the way, et al = and all aliases.. is a legal term to cover all the bases.

There are approximately 884 members in this forum. So far, barely <2% have responded in this thread. (17.68 members out of 884). We are lucky to get 10% of the Nation, 30 million adults to vote in national elections. I would like to see a few more addresse the original openning for this thread. Yes, it is a "Club," and to that end, the owners are ultimately in charge of the PC server plug. But, with hugs to all, I still can have an opinion and should not fear retribution, dismissle or any other form of exclusion as "Freedom of Speech" is guaranteed by the First Amendment of the US constitution. But even then, it is limited to some extent by the very concept that one can be removed from a "club" list and have the doors shut forever. Let us agree to disagree.

Hugs

Danielle Marie.....

[Laura Ashcroft]

Ok, I've tried to bite my tounge, but it has begun to bleed, so in the interest of personal well being, I decided I have to post. My political beliefs are pretty much irrelivant on this topic, but I will say that I, like most Americans, treasure the First Amendment. Even in the public space, there are restrictions on what you can say, and what you can't. In order to settle a point I have seen argued in this thread this is a privately run public forum. Privately run is the key. The owners of the site set the rules and they are allowed to. Anyone who doesn't like the rules, can leave and create their own site. I happen to thoroughly enjoy this site, and most of the people here. I also think Beauty has done, and continues to do a wonderful job of moderating, and she has shown the patience of a goddess. I don't know if she is paid for doing the job she does, but i kind of doubt it. I sincerely think I would have thrown in the towel a while ago if I were her. Beauty, a personal note to you, kudos to you, and the job you have done keeping this site civil, and an enjoyable place to hang out. YOU DEFINATELY ROCK. I just though someone should say "I appreciate you, and what you do, and thank you"

Civility, it is the goal of the laws that are passed to maintain it. Anarchy is the result of a society or group with no rules. I am the first to admit, there are WAY too many laws, and WAY too much focus on the wrong people in society. Civility should be maintained on this site, and rules are necessary to do that. If you would like to see a good example of what an unmonitored forum looks like, I invite you to look at http://www.craigslist.org/rnr/. This site is entertaining to me sometimes, because it is just damn funny how worked up some people can get. But it's crap, all of it. Is that what we want here? I certainly hope not.

Another thing I saw argued here, is politics, or religion appropriate for a cross-dressing site. Well, yes, as a matter of fact it is. I wear a dress, but I also vote, and I have faith in a supreme being, so why not talk about those things too? Political and religious conversations can strike at the core of our belief systems, and therefore evoke deep seated emotions, which in turn can provoke emotionally charged, less civil, less logical reactions. Then one emotional outburst triggers another, and it is a chain reaction. The moderators are there to halt that chain reaction and restore some order. If that means I can't say the F word, or have to spend an hour reformulating what I want to say into a civilly worded post, then that is ok with me. I think we would all do well to sit back and think before we speak.

I am not sure just what Jaime Ann is angry about. In one sentence she claims "Arguably, some of the areas of this forum could be cut, because they are not about CDing — in any of its aspects.". Then in the next statment she says "Mordor seems to be for the board’s second-class citizens—a sort of purgatory for those wishing to discuss certain issues that are in fact quite central to the real experience of real CD’s." Jamie Ann, do you like Mordor or not? Is it about CD's or not? I personally think it is a wonderful and essential part of this forum. I am a bit saddened that it had to be hidden, but overall, I think it was a fine compromise. It could have been left where it was I think, in public view, with an "enter at your own risk" disclaimer. People should be made aware of what it is about, then the choice left to them if they want to venture there. They still have that choice now, but it is not quite as visible, and I can live with that.

I have really strong beliefs, on many things, but I temper them here. I want to be open enough to read other's ideas and at least consider them. I give value to what others believe, though they may not change my mind. I try to give civility and respect to all the members here, and I expect that in return. Isn't that what we are asking the public at large for? You don't have to like what I do, or what I believe, just treat me with civility and respect as a person.

[Beauty]

Beauty is applying her understanding of the English language, and the verbal and subtle meanings of words and phrases. I understand that. It was just my observation that her understanding is limited to her experience, education, and personal beliefs which are all or for the most part established during our period of youth. We carry this information through life and rarely if ever change what we believe to be true and fair.

...

Hugs

Danielle Marie.....

Hi,

Yay!!! Another post of someone calling me something. I thought yesterday it was just me being a mean person. Today I found out I'm an animal and can't help the stupid way I am. Perhaps if I be more educated I'd see that as a huge compliment .. oh wait!!! ... better yet!!! Maybe, and this is just a guess because I'm not that bright and can't really use the dictionary like super duper smart people, maybe if I were smarter I would take this as a great opportunity to acknowledge my limited growth in my childhood and accept my limitations and work from within the severe limitations I have because of my understanding of the english language.

Gee whiz and by golly this is just best job ever! I can't tell you what a joy it is to get two mornings in a row to come to a place that I love, but also work and luckily find another post that tells me who I am and lets the world know. Naturally it's for the common good or clarity of a point. Heaven knows that's way better for me than caring about, I don't know, my feelings. It's good to see that so many people know me so well. Wow. I'm totally honored. Hey? I wonder if I'm turned on?

I asked my wife again about her opinion on the text above. Thankfully she heard it the way I did and this time she understands that I'm going to be less restrained than I was before.

Now for a moment of ignorant clarification, because lord knows I'm stumped for growth and can only talk in a way that's limited to my poor upbringing and ignorant parents who are both college graduates and one has an even higher degree that's no one's business but mine.

Person that posted this, I'm not applying anything. You used the M word and I edited it. Those are the ever changing rules.

Now, for my second ignorant act. I also have to ask you, like I asked someone else previously in another post, in this absolutely inspirational thread, to please refrain from talking about me. Your words are freaggin' daggers to my soul and I'm freaggin' tired of it. I'm a stupid animal remember? Even us stupid people or less educated folks (even us peoplezezz with bachelor degrees) have feelings, perhaps it's our inability to understand words that prevents us from evolving past statements like this, but I don't care anymore. (Yummy look at all the comma splices) Please never refer to me again as you seem to know me better than my limited mind can take. I submit to you the amount of times I've used the word limited in just this post alone as evidence that I am a simple person. Please allow me to evolve as a person of limited understanding naturally. Your knowledge of me exceeds my feeble understanding of myself and it causes me great pain to read about the person I am because I'm just too ignorant to grasp the enormity of it. Maybe you'll be able to look down upon me and grant this wish as you can see my poor limited mind has reacted in a way that you had clearly not intended. Hopefully you will see that your intelligence is far to superior to a simple person like me and you will unfortunately have to deprive me of the benefits of your knowledge because I am displaying childish, immature, or obvious signs that I'm not capable of grasping or accepting critiques of this insignificant magnitude. Please if you would be so kind to spare this simple soul from hearing things that I'm too ignorant to understand it would be greatly appreciated because (as the tone changes) I can no longer tolerate anyone critiquing me. My cup is spilling over the edge because it's full. I figured I'd word it that way since I'm an ignorant putz who's unable to talk about anything above my limited education.

Sheeesh! Leave me alone!

I know that hug wasn't for me, but I left it in anyway. If it was including me why would expect me to want you to even touch me?

Please God allow me to stay this ignorant in the ways of the world and fill me with your wisdom. Your wisdom is all I've ever prayed for since I was a teenager. Please allow me to stay ignorant because it allows me to still love those who cast stones at me and justify it by rationalizing it wasn't stones only pebbles or even grains of sand that never reached me physically. I feel for them even though they say such mean or inconsiderate things to me. Wisdom is all I've prayed for and I pray you'll hear my desperate plea again, though you tell me you hear me the first time. I pray you'll ease me past this really horrible period where my brothers and sisters in life don't realize how there words are destroying my soul. They seek to justify they actions and lack of kindness or compassion because of their knowledge of the world or their perception of me. They do this while forgetting or not caring that I have a soul and I hurt from their words that do not show love, but show they love themselves more than they love the feelings of their brothers or sisters and me. I pray you hear me and give me to strength to love them even more despite how much they publicly ridicule me and hurt me with their words.

Beauty

[GalicianGirl(SO)]

Enough is enough!!! Please refrain from this "name calling". I am really getting sick of it!!! Some of you are acting like a bunch of 2 year olds. Enough said about that...

Okay back to the subject on hand... It all started with certain words that were written by Danielle that Beauty edited. I have nothing against those word and have used them myself but not here. Did you ever think that just maybe some of these words embarrass or offend other members? And to remind you, we also have young ones that are members.

I don't look at what we are doing as censorship since this is a private group and already has rules established. We're just trying to run a good, clean, PG rated forum that anyone of any age could visit and not feel offended!!!

If you don't like our rules, you are more then welcome to leave.

Thank You,
Sharon(SO)

[Danielle La Belle]

Let me say that one of the most interesting things in this thread has been to see how, without being present in a room together so as to observe hand jestures, facial expressions and body movements, so many seem to just mis-interpret what is being said.

If I were a one-armed paper hanger, the best that I could hope for is the best that I can do, being one-armed. Expecting more or less would be just a matter of perception.

At no time was it in my interest to denigrate anyone on this forum. We all are the sum of our education and experiences, not just Beauty It is not about rank or power or authority. What we are seeing here is the very reason that Countries have borders. That one city government does not work in tandum with another local city goverment, they too have borders. Each entity, as described, has a vested interest in maintaining their city, their Country and their borders.

It boils down to food, clean water and terra firma. When these needs are met, we go looking for interaction with other humans. Good, bad or indifferent, this thread is about interaction.

I said it before, yes, we need a referree (monitor). Words can be predjudicial and harmful. Without spite, I mention this as it seems to have gone awry. A professor at Northwestern University, a long time friend of mine, upon seeing some of the posts in this thread, exclaimed over the telephone to me that this was "free speech" unbridled!

"The horse has run away with the cart" is another expression.

Sharon: If we want everyone to just be nice and polite, that would be more like kindergarten. Adults after being sequestered as children for the most part, look for opportunities that challenge their ideas, beliefs, and interests. Even this statement can be mis-understood as you cannot see my smile, or my body language that says, .....okay.

Hugs

Danielle Marie

[Lorna]

Hi Beauty,

One of the toughest things in this world to do is to stand firmly by what YOU believe, no matter what anyone else may think or say.

It seems that recently, quite a few of the members here feel that they deserve some sort of a "gold medal" for simply posting in this forum, that just because they're members here that it is somehow the admins job to jump as soon as someone squawks or to kiss everyone's behinds. WRONG.

You may or may not agree with this, but as a moderator you don't owe anybody a thing. Stick to your guns. And whatever decisions YOU make, I support you.

[Lorna]

I have really strong beliefs, on many things, but I temper them here. I want to be open enough to read other's ideas and at least consider them. I give value to what others believe, though they may not change my mind. I try to give civility and respect to all the members here, and I expect that in return. Isn't that what we are asking the public at large for? You don't have to like what I do, or what I believe, just treat me with civility and respect as a person.

I don't look at what we are doing as censorship since this is a private group and already has rules established. We're just trying to run a good, clean, PG rated forum that anyone of any age could visit and not feel offended!!!

If you don't like our rules, you are more then welcome to leave.

Thank You,
Sharon(SO)

Beautifully said, ladies!!

[Danielle La Belle]

The answer here is simple. The sand box belongs to the holder of the "server." The holder of the server has allocated to an individual, the right to monitor and censor if need be any communication on this forum.

Rule said and done.


Rule accepted.

Hugs

Danielle Marie