Crossdressers-Haven.com

Hi all,

A couple of nights ago, I went out with my ex-GF and a few friends (dinner and a rock concert). At one point during the evening, she and I were alone outside the club for a breath of fresh air. We started discussing a subject that had been brought up earlier at the restaurant, that subject being our "singleness." Both she and I (along with a couple of other women we were hanging out with that night) are single.

She's not particularly impressed with the fact that she's single and she's therefore somewhat enterprising in meeting new people (online dating services, etc.), much more so than I am (as some of you know). Well, when the conversation turned to how it is, exactly, that we come to know we're physically attracted to someone, our opinions parted ways. She said that, in her case, it's a very visceral thing--she knows what she likes when she sees it. She'll be attracted to a man, initially, even though he may be a complete (or even relative) stranger, at first. Not so for me. I can't muster up the physical desire for a woman if I don't know her at least well enough to get a good sense of her inner beauty. Many of my friends think this makes me a dinosaur of sorts. I guess that's true--call me old-fashioned. But my ex, that night, said this to me: "Your problem is that you're not enough of a predator." Egad! I know, I know, she didn't mean it in a strictly sexual sense. But still! I would never want to think of myself as a predator. It got me thinking, though: can courtship (or flirting or dating) be considered a predatory activity?

I'm thinking on these things as a result of a discussion in another thread, where Jassmine, amongst others, mentioned that the obvious attraction men feel when they glance--no, when they leer--our way, makes us feel like mere objects. I never want to make a woman feel as though she's a mere object of lust. And there's my problem, maybe... aren't there times when such strong attraction is, indeed, welcomed? I think so. What may not be welcomed is the often adolescent and brutish way in which many men signal their interest. I, for one, know that I can only come to be physically attracted to a woman insofar as I get to know and appreciate who she is, inside (which may be why online friendships are somewhat risky, at times, for someone like me).

Regardless, I won't change this about me (not sure I could even if I wanted to, anyway). I'd rather be an "Alien" than a "Predator"! I'm wondering what some of you good folks' thoughts are on this matter.

Love,
CJ

CJ, the way you look at women sounds very much like me. I notice how a lot of guys just look at girls just for sex, it does upset me a lil really but I guess there are women out there who love predator types but I believe not all of them do.

I know for a fact I have only ever met one girl who I still now think I will end up with one day, she works with me but is actually a lesbian but strangly I just feel an amazingly strong connection with her, I can't describe it.

Anyways, I've always prefered Aliens to Predators

Sophie xx

Hi CJ,

Great thread. I posted once about this radio host who said he was eyeing Melissa Stark and she said to him, "KNOCK IT OFF!" She said something like, "Do you know how scary it is to have someone just gaze at you like you are?" He got upset, but it's true.

When I have gone out it's really scary the way men just look at you. You don't know if it's attraction or murderous intentions. No matter how much I rolled my eyes or looked at them to let them know NOT INTERESTED, they'd just do what they wanted to anyway.

With that said, there are ways to look at a woman and know she's interested. If you look at her and she smiles. DING! You're in usually. If you look over again and she's still smiling at you then it's time to say, "Hi." If she looks away or looks afraid move on and don't make eye contact with her again.

Your friends description was hard for her I imagine because you can't put that exchange in words. It's more of a "it happens" thing. When there's a chemical, spiritual, or whatever when I look at a gal it's just that. I don't try to explain it, but I do speak up. More than likely I won't ever see her again anyway.

Now..lol.. when it comes to adult relations, well then I have a problem that's a bit different with me. I'm not an aggressor later in the relationship.

In the beginning I'm more the aggressor. Women are just so hot, how (in my mind) could I ever hold back from their soft, sweetly scented, and welcoming selves. :: fanning myself ::

As I said above though, my relationships have matured I have noticed I like for our interest to be mutual though when it comes to sex. Women are usually like, "WHAT?" Their entire lives guys have always come on to them and they've had to say "No, not now." So it's kind of not normal when it's like, "Well.. ok if you are too."

So I guess I'm saying for me, at the beginning there are ways I feel and then after the newness is gone I tend to act another way.

Sheeesh.. I didn't think I was going to spew this much. Great thread CJ!

Beauty

Hi Everyone

Great thread CJ!!

I am a woman who definitely does not like the "predator" type. I tend to run the other way. I am like CJ and Sophie in the sense that I am not wholly attracted to a person until I have gotten to know them. Ahzz approached me as a fellow human being and freind first thing. I could sense that he wasn't after anything but freindship at that point in time. I must admit that was a new experience for me as most men come on to me way to strongly, and I know they are only after one thing I am much more than that and Ahzz took the time to get to know me and allowed me the time to get to know him

I too, prefer "aliens" to "predators"

*Hugs & Love*

As I have not dated or wanted to for over 25 years, But I can talk about the looks.

I do not look at woman for sex but I look. If a woman is dressed to kill then what are you think but sex. If they have super short dresses or skirts and their boobs hanging out what are you to think. So when they get mad when we look, I have always wondered why. Gee

I've never gone out dressed up, but just the thought of being looked at like a piece of meat in a butchers shop makes me cold. Like you,CJ, I cannot fall for someone until I know them..the person behind the smile.
Maybe those of us lucky enough to be in touch with our feminine side tend to see things more through the eyes of the Ladies than those who dont. Makes me glad to be among gifted people like you all on this board.

Very nice topic. Okay, I'm going to put on my guy self here for this post.

If you look at humans in biological and psycholoical terms, then you will really see why men tend to gaze and stare at women with such an animalistic manner. We are, after all, fairly new creatures in the evolutionary scene and we have not yet evolved beyond being influenced by the chemicals which drive over 90% of our reactions to situations.

Predators? I'd say males, in general, are genetically prone to be that way. Look at nature, other than humans, and you will see even in our closest genetic relative (the chimpanzee - 99% genetic match) the males are agressive, and go for what they want especailly when it comes to "breeding". That is really what our sex drive is, for breeding, but we humans have also evolved to enjoy it very much more! Thank god!



Not yet been dressed-up and out on the town yet to get that feel, but yes, as a male I do look at women that way from time to time. I try not to make it too obvious when I catch myself doing it, as I understand how it makes some women feel, but those chemicals running through my blood and brain just grab control sometimes before I can think about it.

J

Hi Gelinda,

Gelinda wrote:As I have not dated or wanted to for over 25 years, But I can talk about the looks.

I do not look at woman for sex but I look. If a woman is dressed to kill then what are you think but sex. If they have super short dresses or skirts and their boobs hanging out what are you to think. So when they get mad when we look, I have always wondered why. Gee

You bring up a very valid point. Myself, I wear lightweight, skimmpy clothing in the summer because it's just too darned hot to wear anything else. I wear this type of clothing for my own comfort, not to draw attention to myself. That's just me, though. Some women do indeed wear that type of clothing just to get the attention. Now, during the cooler months when I am wearing my flannels and such, I STILL get leered at These are large men's flannels and they cover my figure completely. I am trying to look masculin and yet I can't quite pull it off I don't wear make-up and many men have long hair these days..... I just don't get it....

*Hugs & Love*

I must say that I was physically attracted to Jassmine when I first saw her unlike most women. However I believe that the difference in how she perceived my attention had more to do with my mental "greed" level than anythign else though.

Most men are taught that in order to be a man, he must try to claim everything that he sees as desireable. They are also taught that they have a right to try to claim things. It's that "look in the eye of posession" and the acomppanying mental thought of "it will be mine" that makes for that agression and turns the look of appreciation into a look of leering.

Think about it in terms of inanimate objects. Has anyone here ever seemn something that they simply must have when a friend was around? I'm willing to bet that the look that was given to that object was probably comparable in some way to the look that the agressive men give to women. And i'm not one to usually bet on things. You can after all see into a persons thoughs via their eyes.

Then of course there is the sexual instinct side. Inanimate objects don't trigger a sexual desire whereas people do. Being a base instinct, this one is a bit harder to keep under control than the desire for a physical object since it is a base animal instinct.

Combine these two things and it's no wonder that most men will seem to be leering at a good looking gal. ;-P Not only are they suposed to be the one claiming, and suposedly have the right to try to claim it, and the base instinct of sex, and bingo, you get a leering look.

I've noticed that the ones that follow the traditional path of male right to control and power are the ones that are far more prone to leer at a woman. Part of what makes me not want to be around a rather large chunk of male society. 8-P Us men really don't have the right to try to claim anything we see. Especially when it's another human being.

Women on the other hand, are trained to take a semi-opposite approach. They used to be taught to look good and draw a man that they like the appearance of into their net by playing that male right to claim what they see that they like. Thus they don't appear to leer like men do.

Self Removed

Hi all,

I play it safe and leer at those CDs who make themselves look beautiful.

You will reap what you leer at. If you leer at intelligence that is what you will end up with. If you leer at beauty that is what you will get. If you leer at both and get it you are one lucky person.

Hi all,

Thanks for the replies. There's a lot of food for thought, here.

A point that was brought up by Gee and addressed by Jassmine and others is the fact that our (male) response is entirely natural, given the way women, generally speaking, present themselves. And I'm very aware that women are taught to present themselves in such a way as to enhance their appearance (of course, as CD's, we're now trying to learn how to do exactly that, for ourselves!). This brings me to my point.

I want to pull back from the personal a bit and see what happens if I throw this into the mix (I guess my feminist colours might come through, here ): Could it be that, given the fact that men usually determine beauty standards (through art, advertizing, and the beauty and fashion industries, especially), women are, in some way, "conditioned" to present themselves in a manner most appealing to the male gaze? Conditioned, in other words, to see themselves (or, at least, to behave) as objects of our (male) desires, as "preys" to our (again, male) predation?

I have a friend who just can't get around this. He's from a culture where women are expected to be modest, to hide their features behind long robes and veils. I sometimes have arguments with him about this (while still trying to respect his own cultural specificity). Why, I ask him, should it fall on a woman's shoulders to protect herself from the often wild libido of men? Has he, as a man, no responsibility in this regard? Rather than deal with the thorny issue of his own possibly inappropriate behaviour (although, to be honest, insofar as I know he's only "predatory" in his own mind, not in fact), he seems to prefer putting the responsibility for his own behaviour squarely on women's shoulders. "Look," he says, "look at her; she's dressed very provocatively... she has to know what effect she has on us!" I counter with: "What if she just enjoys her sexiness for its own sake? Because she can? Our sex appeal is one thing we should be able to revel freely in; old age often (but not always) robs us of it." I've actually often had women tell me this. They dress as much for their own pleasure (regardless of how they dress) as they do for the appreciative eye of another. This is where my friend and I part ways. He believes (without realizing how much this is the influence of men themselves) that the emphasis women put on their beauty and appeal masks their humanity, whereas I see it as a celebration of their humanity. But that celebration should never be confused with an invitation to predation. As Beauty said above, communication in this regard happens in the eye and in the smile, not in the skirt, however short it may be, nor in the heel, however high.

Anyway, these are just some of my own thoughts. I find it liberating to be able to have a great conversation with a woman, to listen to what's in her heart, to welcome what's in her mind--regardless of what she chooses to wear or how she chooses to present herself. The physical side of things, like love itself, will come into play once I've come to know who she is (assuming that I am interested, that is). Of course, this also means that I might not be as quick to pick up signals of interest on her part; I'm just not looking for them right off the bat. (That might go a long way to explain why I'm still a bachelorette! ) I guess (to go back to the personal) this has to do with a certain submissiveness in my character (which I like to think of as being "tenderness-focused" rather than "sex-focused" ). I really am not a predator. Guess I'll just have to wait to stumble upon a predatress!

Again, thanks for all your thoughts on the issue, gals. It's great to hear people's views on this.

Love,
CJ

Hey CJ

That was a very thought provoking post

Myself, I don't to try be attractive to men. I never cottoned to the idea that a woman was supposed to "lure" her potential mate with her looks. In fact I am quite anti that idea. I want a man to be attracted to who I am not what I look like.

Your point on women dressing to please themselves is perfect! I wear what appeals to me in the sense of beauty and comfort. I dress for noone but myself

Now, there is a very distinct difference between a man giving me a glance that says, "Wow, I think your pretty" and staring or leering. An appreciative glance is cool anything beyond that I consider rude. We are all taught that it is impolite to stare, so why do some men think it is ok to stare

Why, I ask him, should it fall on a woman's shoulders to protect herself from the often wild libido of men? Has he, as a man, no responsibility in this regard? Rather than deal with the thorny issue of his own possibly inappropriate behaviour (although, to be honest, insofar as I know he's only "predatory" in his own mind, not in fact), he seems to prefer putting the responsibility for his own behaviour squarely on women's shoulders. "Look," he says, "look at her; she's dressed very provocatively... she has to know what effect she has on us!" I counter with: "What if she just enjoys her sexiness for its own sake? Because she can? Our sex appeal is one thing we should be able to revel freely in; old age often (but not always) robs us of it."

Everyone is indeed responsible for their own actions, period. I cannot help the fact that men find me attractive. It doesn't matter what I am wearing. I have gone out thinking I looked like an absolute mess, and still have had men come on to me As I stated above, I don not go out of my way to make myself appealing to men. I have tried to be unappealing and sigh....I just can't seem to escape it

*Hugs & Love*

I've been fascinated with your post since I read it yesterday, CJ. I guess it's just my sense of wonder at the differences in the way people experience and relate to the world. It's fair to say that I'm one of those who experience a strong initial attraction to this or that person (not unlike your ex-girlfriend). It's intensely interesting to find someone with the entirely opposite inclination.

Maybe it's just a visual thing. I tend to key in on the face (particularly about the eyes) very early and have some sort of immediate emotional response. This may explain why, among other things, I find it so off-putting to see someone with entirely shaved or plucked eyebrows: I can't get a reading.

Any ideas why you immediately discard the impression and go straight for the analysis? I don't mean to be unduly inquisitive here; it's just that we have a contrast in personalities in this area, and I think this contrast might help me to gain some insights into my own nature . . .

Yours,
Celia

Hi girls,

I watched the entire series on tv called "The Human Animal". It was an eight part series on The Learning Channel. It looked at our behavior from an anthropalogical point of view, exactly as if they were studying any other animal. This removes religious or social behaviors and only analizes what is observed. The study was conducted world wide to include many different kinds of culture.

There were a few things about our behavior that I will note here, because they are universal, and relevant.

All cultures the males complete for females by showing bravery, cunning, intelligence, wealth and social standing.

Women communicate with words, men communicate with looks, and intentions. Men as early predators needed to communicate silently so they could effectively hunt. As all you men know, at work, at play men communicate all the time with mere looks.

They showed a playground of school kids, the boys played with almost no verbal communication whatsoever, while showing off thier physical abilities usually with some sport or game, while the girls were in small groups talking.

There are other things, women are attracted in general to men who are aggresive and forward, as they tend to be better providers than those who hang back. Not a rule, just and obeservation.

Makeup? Well, when girls become aroused, thier face blushes and becomes more sensitive, thier lips fill with blood making them red and full. So when they put on blush and lipstick, our instincts tell us they are ready to mate. Most women are not even aware they are sending this biological signal out.

Having said all that, I have never been aggressive about approaching women, like most of you I find this behavior silly and offensive, and would be too embarrassed to be that way to a woman. My wife was the aggresor in our relationship, and pretty much every girl I have ever dated was the aggressor. I never want to feel like I am forcing myself on a woman. But there are plenty of women who do in fact love aggressive men and like knowing they were chosen. I have been told the same thing. I am just not aggressive enough with women.

CJ, when she said you were not enough of a preditor, I think this is what she meant. Not that you were actually lurking waiting to pounce, but that many women do like an aggressive man. I think that because our feminine side is so prevelant, us crossdressers are probably all non-aggressive in our pursuit of women.

Love always,
Elizabeth