Crossdressers-Haven.com

It was brought up in a discussion between Y and Y's stepmother that Y's father might start drinking again if Y told him about her transitioning when Y visited her father.

From Y's description of her step mom I commented:

Your step-mom should be strong enough to keep him from drinking, if he should react that way, but I doubt he will.

Y responded with:

I don't think it's fair of you to say that my step-mom should do anything about if he decided to start drinking. She is incredibly strong and dealing with her own life issues. Only my dad can control his ability to drink.

My reply was:

I guess it does read different than I intended, sorry. I meant that it sounds as though she is strong enough that she could probably keep him from drinking if she wanted to.

That said, I disagree that only your dad can control his ability to drink. I think you step-mom could, and she'd want to. I know I'd want to if it was someone I loved.

Y replied:

I'll say it again about my step-mom or anyone including your wife. It's very unhealthy to think that someone else can control another's actions. . . it's not up to ANYONE to stop another person from drinking, smoking a crack pipe, cheating, cutting themselves, committing suicide, or anything else out of their realm of control. I'm sorry Donna, but that's just ridiculous and like I said it's very unhealthy that you even think that.

So, my question is: If someone you loved, especially a spouse, were to start drinking excessively in order to cope with news they couldn't accept, should you attempt to prevent them from doing so?

Having had my mother die from alcoholism when I was seven, I can only say I wish someone had had the guts to intervene in her behalf! Love you Mom and thanks for sharing you name with me I will carry it proudly!
Virginia

Hi Donna--
That's a tough one to look at. It's not a question of whether one is "strong" enough, either physically or emotionally. My gut reaction is that trying to prevent a person from drinking almost always leads to physical violence, of some sort. "Prevent" implies that you physically remove the bottle from the person's hand, or try to physically restrain them from getting in the car to go to the store. Preventing a person from drinking is always long past the talking stage.

I had an alcoholic friend stay with me for a year and a half, and I was in a band with another alcoholic friend. There was no "talking them out of it." There was a lot of angry yelling and cursing. I couldn't prevent them from doing any of it--they would always find a way to get access to it. If I actually saw them drinking, I could have grabbed the bottle and smashed it in the sink. That's no solution at all--it's just a temper tantrum that gives me a spike of glee and revenge, and it invites them to clobber me.

If the alcoholic is in a recovery program, you might be able to talk to them, and remind them of the sober days they've accumulated. That's the only situation where talk is of value, and that's because the alcoholic is also determined to do it themselves--they just need temporary help.

Hi Donna,

I have helped several people through rehab and off of alcohol. One of the most important things that people need to know is that the addiction belongs to the person that is doing the drinking. NO ONE!!!!!!!!! Has control over anyone but themselves and it is inherently unfair to put the burden of someone elses drinking on anyone but the drinker.

Al-Anon, the organization to support those who have loved ones that drink teaches thier members that the addiction is not thier fault, and it is not up to them to make excuses for it, hide it, or support it in any way. It teaches that friends and family have a choice to either support the behavior, or to not support the behavior, but they don't have the responsibility or the power to end it.

Sometimes when loved ones stop supporting the behavior(co-dependency) the drinker will seek help, but only the drinker can do this. No one should ever be put in the position of "keeping someone from drinking". Only the drinker can keep him/herself from drinking.

Any person who has already quit drinking, usually already has a set of coping tools. That includes tools to deal with stressful situations, but if they do not, it is no one elses fault. No person should ever be put in the situation of having to alter thier behavior because someone might get drunk if they do. It is just unrealistic to expect that a person could ever quit drinking if they had to rely on the actions of others.

Other than not enabling the behavior, there is really nothing bystanders can or should do. If one has stated there would be consequences if the behavior returned, those consequences should be carried out. For instance if a wife had said that she would only live with the person while they were sober, she should leave if he drinks. She should do this for herself though, not to change the behavior of the alcoholic, which it is unlikely to do anyway.

I hope this helps.

Love always,
Elizabeth

I would do everything in my power to prevent said loved one from destroying her/himself.

This is a very sticky topic. I have a brother is who is way gone with alchohol. I've tried everything to help him..good cop, bad cop, that sort of stuff. Many major blow outs. A good source for help is AL-ANON, btw....its for folks trying to help friends or relatives. They told me i was a "provider" because i gave him room and board and a few bucks while trying to help. I'm involved with a number of veterans groups, and this is the most common problem we try to help. Sadly, the results aren't that good.
Now...a long term problem and one that is a reaction to a to a sudden traumatic situation are two different things. It could be a temporary withdrawal from facts that one doesn't want to know. But that new reaction could lead to a severe problem without help and CAREFUL intervention. Should we jump in? By all means, but from my experience, it s gonna be nasty. Is it worth a shot? Yes...But, perhaps contact Al-ANON or others for advice before you cock the 12 gauge. Good luck to you.
deeDee

So, my question is: If someone you loved, especially a spouse, were to start drinking excessively in order to cope with news they couldn't accept, should you attempt to prevent them from doing so?

Yes - however, the person has to want to stop drinking and start coping with reality, instead of taking the easy way out (in their minds) by drinking and thereby avoiding reality. Unless they are willing to change, no amount of intervention will ever work.

- SL

Hi girls,

I took this off the Al-Anon Web site.

alanon.org wrote:
The Family Disease
by Betty Reddy

For family members, alcoholism causes a progressive inability to
predict their own behaviour because of the growing pre-occupation
with and reaction to another person’s drinking.
Generally speaking, if a person wonder whether alcoholism is the problem,
it probably is.
Family members need to hear that the emotions they feel are a
normal reaction to alcoholism.
Frequently, they experience a free-floating but persistent fear.
They are afraid of the alcoholic’s reactions and are prepared to
settle for ‘peace at any price’.
They worry about bills, accidents and job losses
(the alcoholic’s and, in some cases, their own).
As they attempt to deal with the unpredictable irrational behaviour
of the drinker, they become confused and increasingly guilty and pre-occupied.
As their lives become compulsively centered on trying to get the alcoholic
to stop drinking through unsuccessful attempts to manipulate and control,
most of their actions only enable the alcoholic to continue the drinking.
Family members are caught in a cycle of repetitive non-helpful behaviour
that leaves them frustrated, angry and alone.
They feel helpless and hopeless.

Love always,
Elizabeth

I found Al-Anon and Adult Children Of Alcoholics to be very helpful in this regard.

All of what is being said here is making an assumption that your friends father is an alcoholic. But that has not been made clear in the post. Although people who aren't alcoholics usually don't precipitate this sort of discussion.

Lots of very good points have been made here. A key concept is what they call the three Cs:

We did not cause someone else's alcoholism
We can not control it
We can not cure it.

Trying to PREVENT an alcoholic from drinking is an exercise in futility. But that being said there are things we can do to support the alcholic in their efforts to remain sober. And there are things we can do to keep from enabling the alcoholic to keep drinking. One of these is that we avoid taking responsibility for anothers drinking but do take responsibility for our own actions, words, and behavior. So just shrugging our shoulders and saying there is nothing we can do at all is not really appropriate.

So, when dealing with such an emotionally loaded topic as transitioning, they will want to seek help in how do they approach this with loved ones. But pretty much the same guidelines would apply as with anyone else. Approaching the whole subject with love and with honoring the feelings of others even as we expect our own feelings and who we are to be honored. Your friend may need to accept that her father has a life threatening disease and that he may need to have his own time to come to terms with the situation while maintaining his own recovery which is a tactful way of saying that his sobriety may need to come ahead of the issue of transitioning FOR HIM. As opposed to for your friend.

My dad got cancer and died some years ago and stayed sober the whole time. I think his attitude was along the lines that the situation was serious enough that he certainly couldn't afford a relapse at a time like this.

When I got sober myself my sponsor told me that I could drink again whenever I wanted to and that he would not try to stop me. But that I shouldn't count on being able to stop again. A common joke is that this sort of thing is like saying "it's just a suggestion but now that you have jumped out of the plane open your parachute. But it is your decision" He was entirely clear that the ball was in my court in this matter and that it was up to me to do what was neccesary both to remain sober and to continue to want to remain sober.

Your friend sounds like they have a pretty good handle on all of this. I hope the talk goes well.

Absaroka

Hi all,

Interesting discussion. It's a very thorny subject.

Here, in Quebec, the law says that, if someone's life is in jeopardy, it's illegal not to provide that person with all reasonable forms of immediate assistance. This, of course, is in reference to extreme, life-or-death situations, not necessarily to addictions. Still, this law embodies a certain noble "brother's keeper" principle that is one of the cornerstones of any society.

The great difficulty with wanting another person's good is that it's often a judgment call that conflicts with what that other person views as their own good. Another principle that's highly cherished by people is their right to self-determination. As Y mentioned, it includes the right to self-destruction and self-termination. It's not a happy situation, but there it is. Having said this, a person's desire (conscious or not) for self-destruction and/or self-termination is often the result of great despair and suffering. These are two things we can help a person through. Not prevent them from experiencing, mind you--that's not possible--but help them through.

Not to trivialize the issue at hand but I engaged in a little mental exercise in this thread: I replaced the word 'alcoholism' by 'transvestism' every time I came across it. For many who view our crossdressing "from the outside," as it were, it's a form of compulsion and an addictive behaviour that we engage in in order to relieve the stress and dull ache of everyday life. I, for one, don't take too kindly to people telling me I ought to quit, let alone to people who would try to actively make me quit. I realize my crossdressing often makes things difficult for me--it's a thorn in relationships, for instance--and that there are some who will view it as unhealthy and even possibly destructive, but I certainly don't see it that way. I think it helps me cope.

Now, I understand there's a difference between crossdressing and alcoholism: the former is not damaging to your physical health (well, not unless you're aiming for a 17" corsetted waist, that is) whereas the latter is (or certainly can be). But the principle remains the same: don't judge others too severely for their coping strategies lest you be judged severely for yours. Yes, there are good ways of coping and there are bad ones. I realize that. But it's not for me to impose my own realizations on other people; we each have to realize where our lives are leading us on our own. All I really hope for is to receive a helping hand when I'm trying to figure things out about myself and my habits and to lend a helping hand to someone who's going through the same process. In my case, this usually doesn't include trying to force them to stop whatever it is they're doing that I (or others) may deem self-destructive but to gently, and non-judgmentally, help them explore their own inner landscape. In other words, to engage myself with them in such a way that our relationship may be suffused with an atmosphere conducive to the 'birth' of their own personal realizations. Like Socrates, I engage in psychological midwifery. And, yes, I try to do this for myself as well.

Of course, like Anita said, there comes a time when talk can be too little too late. If the situation is an emergency, action (however dangerous or risky) may be necessary. Just make sure that it's the right people doing the right action. If the police or the courts need to be involved, then so be it.

Occasionally, in the course of my work, we have to accompany 'destructive' and/or 'self-destructive' individuals to the psychiatric emergency ward. Luckily, these people are often just lucid enough to realize that things aren't going too well in their lives and they offer little resistance when we suggest a cab ride or an ambulance ride to the hospital. Yet there are rare times (of which I used to be not too proud... to the extent that I started thinking I wasn't cut out for this line of work) where I had to force a person's hand and bring them by force--through court orders and police presence--to the hospital, very much against their will. They were in grave and immediate danger of injuring either themselves or others (the provincial law governing such situations specifically requires that such a danger be both grave and immediate).

These, to me, are the yardsticks by which I'll measure the necessity of interfering in someone else's life. Is the person (or those around him or her) in grave danger? Is he or she (or those in that person's entourage) in immediate danger? No? Then no action is required (or even desirable) other than to try to support that person through whatever pain and suffering they may be going through. And talking is good. Talking and listening is even better. Listening is best. Make the person know that they're being heard. He or she will gradually open up. First to you, and eventually to themselves.

I used to be not very proud of the role I play in having someone 'treated' against their will. It caused me no end of anguish to have 'robbed' someone of their most fundamental civil liberty: their personal freedom. At a time when I found little support from my boss or colleagues regarding this course of action--it's something we usually avoid if we can--my roommate, Marie, came to the rescue. She, herself, is a social worker on a mental health team and I value her opinion. She said the choice was, unfortunately, up to me (in one particularly harrowing case where the person had managed to destroy his apartment): either I go to the judge pronto and get her to sign committal papers or I can read about a killing spree on the front page of the following day's paper. That sealed it for me. It was a time to act.

As far as alcoholism is concerned (or any 'slow death' self-destructive behaviour), the best I can do, the best I should do, is to relate to the person in such a way that they can understand that I feel their pain and won't judge them for coping the way they do while simultaneously trying to explore with them possible alternatives to self-destruction. This doesn't mean making them quit; it means helping them try to figure out why they do what they do. It's not necessary to make them feel, through our judgments, that they're 'monsters' of some sort. It's been my experience that, often, many people cartwheeling in the dark abyss of self-destruction already feel that way. They just need to be reminded that they're loved as human beings. And this is a long-term process. Very, very long-term.

I know that all this sounds just fine and dandy and that it smacks of someone living in an ideal world. I'll own up to the fact that I am, indeed, guilty of some kind of idealism. But is it an unrealistic idealism? I don't think so. Just to bore you all again with this, my favorite movie quote... in the film Contact, when told by her boss that "that's just the way the world is," Dr. Ellie Arroway (played by Jodie Foster) responds: "Funny. I always thought that the world was what you make of it."

The ideal world is not just in our heads. It's also in our hands.

Love,
CJ

Bravo CJ!