Shifting my thoughts on gender

Carolynn · Post by **Carolynn** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:15 am

Eunuchs were not often voluntary. It was done to someone, usually a slave or criminal, and could be done to them at an early age or as an adult. Young kids were often castrated for various reasons, ranging from paedophilia to religious reasons to keep a voice high. It has been practiced in the 20th century for the latter reason as well. Some Eunuchs in the olden days developed a lot of power and wealth, and sometimes adopted children to their name. Others were prostituted and degraded and died young.

They were a category, and attitudes toward them varied, but they often had the least admired behaviors of women attributed to them: vindictive, bitchy, jealousy, etc., and were said to solicit the sexual attention of real men.

Post by **DonnaT** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:28 pm

Matthew 19:12
"there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake."

Whether or not one is religious or believes in the bible, it is a book put together from various ancient writings, and it seems that a eunuch was easy to identify.

If they were eunuchs do to castration, how was this so readily noticeable?

This makes me wonder, did they dress then as they do now, as women? Those ancient writings are silent in this regard.

Anita · Post by **Anita** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:04 am

Donna wrote:

This makes me wonder, did they dress then as they do now, as women? Those ancient writings are silent in this regard.

I wasn't aware that they dressed as women now, or that there were any eunuchs around in significant numbers. But that's interesting; I always pictured them dressed male, but yes, how would you know who they were if they didn't have some identifying clothing, whether it was a female garment or a male one?

Gore Vidal wrote about the enunuchs at the Persian court of Darius and Xerxes in Creation. The enunuchs were used to guard the harem there. But Vidal didn't describe how they looked, either. Wikipedia isn't much help on this, although there is a picture of a person that looks to be in male garb.

Post by **DonnaT** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:02 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC-k27Kvtrw

Post by **DonnaT** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:47 am

http://reluctant-messenger.com/josephusA04.htm

Antiquities of the Jews - Book IV
Josephus (a 1st-century Jewish historian), in Jewish Antiquities IV 8,40:

40. Let those that have made themselves eunuchs be had in detestation; and do you avoid any conversation with them who have deprived themselves of their manhood, and of that fruit of generation which God has given to men for the increase of their kind: let such be driven away, as if they had killed their children, since they beforehand have lost what should procure them; for evident it is, that while their soul is become effeminate, they have withal transfused that effeminacy to their body also. In like manner do you treat all that is of a monstrous nature when it is looked on; nor is it lawful to geld men or any other animals.

Seems the above is quite contrary to christian scripture. Matthew mentioned previously and Isaiah 56: 3-5 "To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant- to them I will give within my temple and its walls a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that will not be cut off."

Anthony Simon · Post by **Anthony Simon** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:11 am

The ones I had particularly heard of were those under the Ottomans, where I understood they could rise to high military or political office. But they are racial outsiders. There's a shortish overview of eunuchs in the Ottoman Empire at:

http://farescenter.tufts.edu/events/lec ... 11Apr1.asp

There, it doesn't seem to have been about bending gender. They have a very definite place in the social system. I mean these guys are castrated men and that's the whole point. It's that that gives them their distinctive core (and recognised) role in the society.

Lydia · Post by **Lydia** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:16 pm

Pre-puberally castrated boys were prized in Italy in the 16th and 17th century for their clear soprano voices. The flute-like, vibrato-less notes of the Vienna Boy's Choir are the closest today.

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castrato

Hugs,

Lydia

Davita · Post by **Davita** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:44 pm

eek! Too much talk about cutting off parts. I think we need to talk about re-purposing.

Anne Bonny · Post by **Anne Bonny** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:59 am

There is the Ethiopian eunuch who was riding along in his chariot who was reading scripture and discussed this with?... can't remember and not going to stop to look it up before I CUT THIS OFF! but this person was recognized and accepted, not sure if this was something he would have to confess sorrow over to God and ask forgiveness thinking from my christian perspective for I am one, but it is clear to me that this is not exactly the same as being femophyllic genderwise.... I believe some of us fantasize about having hormones and surgery, etc but know we are not TS. Though I would not mind some mild gynecomastia so that I could at least fill out an A Cup, have long hair, pierced ears - but more than that is probably wrong for me. I am also doing my best to slim down without exercising except for some jogging so that I can be my ideal weight like the women I admire, though most of the nice girls frequently are full figured.

Absaroka · Post by **Absaroka** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:30 pm

I think there are still men in India who are castrated and fill a niche in society not occupied by either women or other men. Predictably it's rather low on the ladder.

Zari

Carolynn · Post by **Carolynn** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:33 am

They are called Hirjas. Before modern medicine, a man would decide he was not a man, nor was he gay, and so he would join the Hirja caste, Caste is an unusual word in this case, since a person jointed it rather than be born into it. The lieader of the Hirja group you joined would do a major castration, usually including the penis. So joining was kinda irrevocable. They dressed as women and live as women. Prostitution was not uncommon, particularly oral sex. Traditionally, they were viewed with some superstition (suspected of being able to curse someone) and were hired by families to dance, tell stories and celebrate new births, weddings and other markers of life to insure a smooth transition. With the advent of modern medicine, and especially over the last 10 years, SRS is performed under much cleaner conditions by a doctor, and it is recognized by the Indian Govt. The role of the Hirjas is changing as well, and the traditional castes are sotra dying out as the new transitioners join more mainstream pursuits and jobs.

Or so I have heard!!

Anne Bonny · Post by **Anne Bonny** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:05 pm

I suppose they are transexuals, though Indians refer to them by the cast name.

Carolynn · Post by **Carolynn** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:59 pm

Of course they do. In their cultural model of the world, thats who men who cut off their "tackle" are.

In our model of the world, they are transsexuals. People who feel they have a feminine side or just enjoy dressing as the opposite gender, occasionally are CDer to us, Trannies, chicks with dicks or other appelations to others. Each label has a whole set of expectations, many of them individual or subgroup based.

Those of us in the West have concepts of gender variation with more individual models in our knowledge base than people in other cultures might have. Each model has a complex set of expected behaviors and other conditions that are used to pigeonhole experiences in each person's daily lives, and also included in those expectations are emotional based prejudices about how likely certain behaviors are likely to occur.

So, each and every one of us has a model of the world inside our heads that is the order of our individual worlds. The size and scope of the model, i.e. the complexity of the model, is dependent on many factors, education and access to wider amounts of information among them. We in the US share components of our mental models, and those collectively are called culture. People in India share components of another model, though they may vary on the baises of personal experience and whether they are Hindu or Moslem. So it makes sense they call transsexuals Hirja, and consider them as part of a caste of low status.

Anita · Post by **Anita** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:33 pm

Not all Indian transsexuals would be hirja, of course. I would imagine that Indians of higher castes and education follow the Benjamin standards, do RLT, and go through the same procedures as the U.S. Whether it is easy for them to transition in their careers as doctors. lawyers, or other professionals is an open question., though. Higher caste does not necessarily mean better acceptance of transition.

Carolynn · Post by **Carolynn** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:17 pm

If they live in Hirja caste groups, doing traditional Hirjas things, then they are Hirjas for sure. It's the model of the world thing. If they are going through the standards of care and having SRS, then trying to assimilate back into society in their new gender/sex, then they would be transsexuals in our model, but I am not so sure if there has really been an in depth change in the culture. The Indian Govt. does change gender markers for people who have had SRS and are at least in business, etc. Not sure how the rank and file folks would consider them, especially where such things as marriage are concerned.

It has been less than 10 years that we have heard anything about SRS in India, but now they are trying to cash in on medical tourism and the idea is being more acceptiable. Before Indian doctors started doing SRS, transitioners went to Thailand, for the most part. Family acceptance has not been too good from what I understand from my sources.