Men, women, and jokes

[Susan]

Thank You Chrissy, some of us believe things like this are important,

Yes I have Welsh blood in me.

[Anthony Simon]

OK, so now I'll try replying listening to what Anita said a bit more:

Anthony Simon wrote:
[ Referring to men playing poker, and being competitive at that]

Like I had no drive to be part of it (or any such thing). But that drive seemed to be very much there with my brother and his friends. It was like an imperative, something like the basis of the formation of new adult male identity which they would then carry outwards and upwards into the world.

I had to start a new thread on this, because I felt it would hijack the one it was in.

I found much the same thing with watching men tell jokes to each other. This is very much a male activity. Deborah Tannen, in her books on how men and women differ in their conversational styles, tries to give explanations for why women do not tend to tell jokes. I also have a very good book on how to tell jokes, by Jim Pietsch, and he devotes a whole chapter to looking at why women don't generally tell jokes in their daily lives.

Mind you, I'm not saying that no woman ever does. It's just that it's not a skill that they tend to be rewarded for, for one thing. It doesn't get them what they want.

I'm going to say that I've always been more of a woman when it comes to this activity. It's just not something that had much appeal to me; it didn't seem to get me anything that I wanted, either.

Not doing the jokes/pranks created a wall when it came to male bonding. I know how to be friends with other men. I can also be there for them when major trouble hits, or there's a crisis of any kind. But I can't be 'familiar' with them; I just can't get that kind of easy camaraderie that comes from "joking around,' and it has hurt me over the years. There are rewards for being able to do this, and every man is expected to be able to participate, to some degree. It's part of 'being a guy.'

So the forum can see why in some ways it was a relief for me to become a woman--I was 'opting out' of this whole system in a very up-front way. I was saying that I was no longer competing in this game, which I wasn't very good at doing in day-to-day life.

Well...I can see that. How about this for a theory? So much of male bonding seems to involve a certain bravado - a certain pride in the ability to take pain, or hand it out, without batting an eye. This is a key part of "being a man" and, IMO, finding yourself included as one. While this can be construed physically - like in that scene in "Jaws" where the trio on the boat bond while comparing physical scars - but might not "joking around" function in a sort of similar way emotionally?

Another way of looking at it is that men create a "no woman's land" by incorporating a certain level of aggressive hurting into these ongoing bonding sessions as "fun" with the idea that women will be more "delicate" and rush off in tears.

I discovered one way to get around my disinterest in jokes. It was to be super-good at some sport or activity. Men would reward me for this, if I could pull it off. They'd 'forgive' my lack of humor if I was superior as a teammate. This can work, but it's exhausting; a hard way to live.

Really it sounds like what you're saying is that being part of a [standard] group of men means lying about yourself. I mean like they have you along for the moment because, as part of the team, you help them "win".

My personal feeling is that "winning" for men as a whole is at the expense of women as a whole. I don't know if this is where you meant to go, but it's where I go. Like underneath the whole thing arises issues about male dominance and their inability to give it up.

So, maybe, you don't much feel like being a "dominant male". Or can't do it, which is certainly my problem. Wel, no, that's not strictly true. I can do it. But not as a "this is me" thing - i.e part of my identity, which is how it seems to be with so many men.

[Anita]

I'll get to Anthony's post in a moment. I see that I had this reply in my draft section.

Joan wrote:

And I thought Liverpool was the unofficial capital of North Wales! We held a National Eisteddfod in Liverpool during WWII, won by 'Y Bardd Du' or Black Bard as he was unable to attend the Eisteddfod as he was killed in the war.

Chrissy wrote:

it was Hedd Wyn of Trawsfynydd who won the 'Black' Chair in Birkenhead 1917 having died at Ypres 31st July 1917. Liverpool held the eisteddfod in 1929.
Bydd y cefais fy nghot ( I'll get my coat)

Susan wrote:

Thank You Chrissy, some of us believe things like this are important,

Yes I have Welsh blood in me.

This thread has taken some interesting turns with these conversations. They sound like part of some very profound traditions.

Paula wrote:

Do you have any Irish in you? - would you like some?

I like that one!

Zari wrote:

.. a couple of times I asked Black friends of mine if they knew any white people jokes. You know, how many white people does it take to change a light bulb or why did they cross the street.

The silence was deafening.

I bet no one here can think of any either....

I was reading Brian McDonald's book, the Golden Theme, and it's about story-telling. In one chapter, he's saying that the B'rer Rabbit stories used animals to make points about the white slave overseers, without coming right out and saying it.

I imagine there's some white jokes going on out there, Zari. I hear hints of them in references to white people not being able to dance, and the whole movie devoted to the 'joke' of Woody Harrelson, the white guy trying to play basketball.

Anthony wrote:

I think self-deprecating humour would probably be something I used a lot - partly because it is an element of what I do anyway, partly because it is a standard (and well-understood) Brit mode, and partly because it seems like a reasonable stance for a man in a dress.

<Big grin> Yeah, that seems like a reasonable stance to me, too. I'm always ready for the bantering that goes with this.

[Anita]

How about this for a theory? So much of male bonding seems to involve a certain bravado - a certain pride in the ability to take pain, or hand it out, without batting an eye. This is a key part of "being a man" and, IMO, finding yourself included as one. While this can be construed physically - like in that scene in "Jaws" where the trio on the boat bond while comparing physical scars - but might not "joking around" function in a sort of similar way emotionally?

Joking around does have this function, I think. Guys start putting each other down, and they can say some pretty nasty stuff, but you're supposed to "take it," and not get riled by it. At the same time, if it gets too insulting, then you've got an excuse for throwing a punch.

Really it sounds like what you're saying is that being part of a [standard] group of men means lying about yourself. I mean like they have you along for the moment because, as part of the team, you help them "win".

I'm not sure what you mean about "lying." If you mean that I would not ordinarily fit into the group if we were all being completely truthful, then maybe I understand. Guys will put up with a lot of contrary behavior if you can help them reach their goal, whatever that may be.

As a kid, my sports ability could be wildly inconsistent. But when I got older, my skills improved. So I got to experience both sides; I knew what it was like to be the kid picked last, and I also knew what it was like to be sought after. The acceptance might have been superficial, but it had real benefits.

My personal feeling is that "winning" for men as a whole is at the expense of women as a whole. I don't know if this is where you meant to go, but it's where I go. Like underneath the whole thing arises issues about male dominance and their inability to give it up.

I don't see it just directed at women. It's directed at anyone that men see as less skilled or less dominant, be it male or female. I'd agree that there is more prejudice around woman, though. The woman does indeed have to be twice as good to get the kind of acceptance that I got as a teen male.

So, maybe, you don't much feel like being a "dominant male". Or can't do it, which is certainly my problem. Wel, no, that's not strictly true. I can do it. But not as a "this is me" thing - i.e part of my identity, which is how it seems to be with so many men.

I did opt out, to some degree. I still function as a dominant male in areas where the roles are carefully defined, like my floor business. I cannot handle the role as a full-time identity, which I see some other men try to do. That doesn't mean that they expect to lead everything they do, but they're always ready to step in if they sense a power vacuum.

[Anthony Simon]

How about this for a theory? So much of male bonding seems to involve a certain bravado - a certain pride in the ability to take pain, or hand it out, without batting an eye. This is a key part of "being a man" and, IMO, finding yourself included as one. While this can be construed physically - like in that scene in "Jaws" where the trio on the boat bond while comparing physical scars - but might not "joking around" function in a sort of similar way emotionally?

Joking around does have this function, I think. Guys start putting each other down, and they can say some pretty nasty stuff, but you're supposed to "take it," and not get riled by it. At the same time, if it gets too insulting, then you've got an excuse for throwing a punch.

And throwing a punch would take the thing into a hyper-version of "No woman's land". People could then retaliate physically. An opportunity to "really" be a man.

Really it sounds like what you're saying is that being part of a [standard] group of men means lying about yourself. I mean like they have you along for the moment because, as part of the team, you help them "win".

I'm not sure what you mean about "lying." If you mean that I would not ordinarily fit into the group if we were all being completely truthful, then maybe I understand. Guys will put up with a lot of contrary behavior if you can help them reach their goal, whatever that may be.

When we've had previous discussions around hiding stuff/being oneself, you've used the same description, "exhausting", to describe the process of not being truthful. So it looked to me like you were saying there was something about being part of a group of men which tied in with those discussions. Like it was something about blocking out the truth that was exhausting.

I might as well say that I'm never sure that jokes used in social situations are about truth. My sense of it, for whatever it's worth, is that they're always about asserting some sort of dominant way of looking at the world that you need to subscribe to to be included. I do always feel that they imply exclusion (if you don't accept) just so much as inclusion (if you do).

I can do "wit", which cuts through things, but not "jokes". Though people do laugh. I'd say, just of the top of my head, that there's an awful lot of wit in women that goes unheard. Not because they don't articulate it, but because it's done in a kind of subtle, (?sly), offhand kind of way. So that you have to be listening carefully to get it (which maybe "Dominant Males" won't do).

There's a book called (I think) The Signifyin' Monkey which says that black humour took place in "signifyin'" where black people would use this sideways techique for having a go at whites. The whites wouldn't "hear" it and understand what was going on, but other blacks would and would enjoy it. I think this relates to the Brer Rabbit stuff you talk about. I'm just wondering if a parallel thing might be going on with women in their use of wit (always assuming I'm right in what I say above).

[Absaroka]

The Signifying Monkey was a song written by Willie Dixon, also called The Jungle King. It's about a monkey who provokes a lion by insulting the lion. I seem to remember he provokes the lion into a fight with an elephant, but I could be wrong.

It's not surprising that a book was written by the same name. For older Black people signifying meant something similar to playing the dozens, which all came down to a contest of insults.

Tremendous amounts of Black music and humor had veiled references to Whites, some so obvious you really wonder how stupid the white people were. The lyrics to the spiritual Go Down Moses come to mind. But songs like Home Again or Wade in the Water also had double meanings. Likewise a great deal of blues. Substitute the white man for the woman the singer is complaining about and it makes sense. Like the song Cypress Grove Blues. " I would drink muddy water and sleep in a hollow log. than to live in the city and be treated like a dog" Treated that way by who?

The original lyrics to Johny B. Goode by Chuck Berry were about "a little colored boy" not a country boy. The theater his name would be on was the whites only theater Chuck Berry could not go to as a child. The record company made him change it. One word made all the difference. But at the time Black audiences knew what he meant, and White audiences were glad not to know.

Brown eyes were another euphemism. He used that in Brown Eyed Handsome Man. I've always wondered if the song "Brown Eyed Girl" by Van Morrison was using the same device.

Proud Mary was written by a white man who liked Black music. "Working for the Man every night and day" But the guy who wrote is was "the Man" That's an expression that has sure changed it's meaning.

So what was the topic? Humor to strengthen solidarity?

[Anita]

Hi Zari--
When we're kids, boys are always looking for differences to make fun of.
Anything different would work. You could wear a red stocking cap, and if two other boys wore blue, they'd mock you for wearing red.

I noticed that some of my friends knew how to use humor to deflect that kind of foolishness, or they could throw it back at the group. Wow! What a skill that was. I really admired that.

Anthony wrote:

When we've had previous discussions around hiding stuff/being oneself, you've used the same description, "exhausting", to describe the process of not being truthful.

I see what you mean. Trying to hide this (trans feeling/CDing) when it first came up was exhausting.

I also meant that trying to excel at something just to prove my worth to the gang could also be exhausting. It was not the best motivation for trying to excel at something, and I was really hard on myself when I didn't come through as expected.

[Anthony Simon]

The Signifying Monkey was a song written by Willie Dixon, also called The Jungle King. It's about a monkey who provokes a lion by insulting the lion. I seem to remember he provokes the lion into a fight with an elephant, but I could be wrong.

It's not surprising that a book was written by the same name. For older Black people signifying meant something similar to playing the dozens, which all came down to a contest of insults.

The book is The Signifying Monkey by Henry Louis Gates Jnr. Here's the Amazon listing:

http://www.amazon.com/Signifying-Monkey ... 000&sr=1-1

It's basically literary criticism. But it's extremely wide-ranging, tieing together the black vernacular tradition and modern black writing with quotes that go all over the place. I actually have this book - I got it for research into something about 10 years ago and then never made much use of it. But, looking at it now, he does identify playing the dozens as a subset of signifying. He goes right back to Africa to find the root of signifying in a mythic trickster figure.

Here's a quote from the book (p66-7):

Frederick Douglass, a masterful Signifier himself, discusses this use of troping in his Narrative of 1845...Writing about the genesis of the lyrics of a black song, Douglass noted the crucial role of the signifier in the determination of meaning:

"[The slaves] would compose and sing as they went along, consulting neither time nor tune. The thought came up, came out if not in the word, in the sound; - and as frequently in the one as in the other...they would sing, as a chorus, to words which to many seem unmeaning jargon, but which nevertheless, were full of meaning to themselves."

[Absaroka]

I think I remember hearing about that book some time ago.
Henry Louis Gates had a lot of interesting stuff to say.

The monkey in African culture seems to occupy the same niche as the coyote in Western Native American culture.

Zari

[Anthony Simon]

Anita, there's a couple of comments that you made in this thread that I've been thinking about:

What's puzzling is that I actually have some ability at stand-up comedy. I did an act for a local cable TV show, and it went over well. Some of it was original material, too. I know the mechanics of how it 'works.'

...I found my sense of humor had to go up a few notches to be out and about as a woman. I dealt with men by being more humorous--it was something that I needed to get by out there in the world. My gal self does better at this than the guy, for whatever reason. I don't think I take myself as seriously as a woman--'she' doesn't have to be competitive in the same way that 'he' does.

Putting these together (they actually come from separate posts originally, but still), it suggests you might be quite successful as Anita if you did stand up. I mean you said your original act went over well - I assume that was in drab - and your sense of humour is better as a woman.

You said something in the current borderland thread about how it takes your breath away when women respond to you as a woman when you're being Anita and it got me thinking...

[Paula G]

One of my as yet unfulfilled ambitions is to do stand up as Paula, I have done a few "turns" in drab, but just need to screw up my courage and get myself organised.

[Anita]

Anthony wrote:

Putting these together (they actually come from separate posts originally, but still), it suggests you might be quite successful as Anita if you did stand up. I mean you said your original act went over well - I assume that was in drab - and your sense of humour is better as a woman.

Thank you for the suggestion, Anthony. I have certainly considered it in the past. There's an aggressiveness about comedy that I find easier to bring up as a guy. My girl self would find it harder to make herself into a performer because her humor comes more from understatement and vulnerability. It's a very endearing quality to me, and I was surprised by this aspect when I found myself doing it.

[Anthony Simon]

That's OK, Anita. As a guy, I have that sort of sense of humour - it just sort of naturally comes bundled with the rest of me. The odd thing is I find that I can use it in really rather aggressive circumstances to defuse the tension.

I do tend to think stuff up on the spur of the moment and that helps me a lot. But, in stand-up you have the hecklers. I'd like to think I could cope with that - like it's just another level of intensity of performance - but I'd really have to be "on".

FWIW.

[Ginny Jones]

This is a really interesting thread! I have always found humour to be a valve for femininity. To be specific, it has enabled me to wander into dangerous territory by being playful or provocative. I have found that this helps me to get a sense of the men around me in particular - homophobic? Black and white? creative? Quick witted? It's almost an assessment tool. That sounds as if I am being calculated or something...I'm not, it's all spontaneous - but I certainly pay attention to the responses!

Fast paced humour is probably the closest I ever get to wrestling with other males. Often the process is more important than the content. Especially with surreal humour. My observation is that the men I am most able to do this with are those that I would say are the least precious about their masculinity. These tend to be the men that I feel a natural affinity with.

Ginny x