What Is Love?

[Karin]

Awwwww. stop, no...Awwwwwwwwwww Okay Cassie, you got me there. Thats just such a nice thing to say, kinda stopped me in my tracks and ive gone a bit weepy now. I dont know what to say.. thanks honey, i appreciate that more than you know xxx

So ive been musing all this stuff a lot. I see a few comments about maybe the HRT is connected to this too. Ive thought about that myself but tbh i know deep down this isnt the cause of it. Nor are the recent 'events' either. These things definately affect the way emotions are dealt with, but they arent the root cause of anything. It just doesnt work that way for me anyway. The Love question for me, has been a lifelong issue, and of late ive been clearing out and reordering my life and its just one of those things i want an answer to.

I told steph about all this, including this thread and my thoughts etc. Especially about confusion of loving more than one person, and mainly my inability to seperate kinds of love. She knew this anyway, and said but its not a problem!! its a good thing to be able to love. I said it is a problem to me, it gets really confusing, it can feel wrong etc etc. She totally gets it thankfully and doesnt feel threatened in any way. She offered an explanation too, which may be onto something? She suggested that its cos i never really loved as a child. Okay this all sounds very pitiful and i dont think i had a bad childhood at all, but shes right. Examples of the lack of affection shown back at the family home, and that i was sooo frigid when we met were offered. I would lock up if she touched me, seriously. i never dated as a child either...that kind of stuff. Her theory is that this blurred the way it works for me.

It was a weird convo to have. but very deep and i was glued to every word.

The upshot of it all, is that although she personally goes with the 'conditional' and 'unconditional' descriptions herself, she sees that for me theres just one meaning of love. Im soooo glad ive talked about this, cos im reassured that its not wrong, and that she as my partner is so glad for me that i have friends who i feel this way about. Shes so special i cannot describe..

So instead of wrestling this now, im sortve able to put it into a neat little box where yeah, im a bit different to most people cos im prone to developing strong feelings for people, but thats okay, its just who i am. This sits quite well for me at the moment. i would rather be able to seperate things like those around me if im honest, but i at least i can accept the way i am without freaking out now..so far.

[Nicole Rose]

Hi Karin, i'ts wonderful that you and Steph are so open and honest with each other, your so fortunate to have each other. Seems like you and Steph have unconditional Love . Your transitioning must be emotional for you, as only you would know. Thats were we as friends can comfort each other whether it is something serious or just a giggle or two, by the way did i tell you , you are sooooo funny, i think of you as a true friend even though we have only chatted a few times, remember Karin, you have to love yourself because if you're not happy how can you make someone else happy.Now i'm rambling, hehehe, hope to chat again soon Nicole

[Karin]

Thankyou Nicole, yeah i know im very lucky to have what i have, theres not a day go by where i dont feel grateful. And i absolutely agree about the friends bit, i feel the same too...have a bow back atchya!

Today steph met with the social worker while i was sleeping and she relayed some of the convo to me, some of which feeds into this subject also?

Cutting thru a lot of detail, someone in my family told her about me being seen in the store (i mentioned this in other posts). In reality i was in jeans, ponytail, jewelery and nice nails - all girly but respectable. The social worker heard that i was wearing a dress and heels somehow?? They also told her about the fling and the fact that im not the genetic father. Apparently there is worry that the stress of all that has in fact sent me crazy,and prancing down the shopping aisles enfemme!! Charming or what??
Heres the thing tho. When my wife had the baby, i signed all the paperwork to say i was the father. To admit to knowing i wasnt the real father would infact be admitting to a crime that I lied to the state. Thats very risky indeed. Naturally its not information i dwell on. but somebody has now informed 'the state' that i have lied to them. uh oh indeedy.

So in my absence, the social worker dwelled upon these things and steph gave her side of the story. The social worker was in tears, said i am a beautiful person, and even said she doubted her partner would do what i did?? She also said we are the nicest family shes ever worked with. One thing she said was that maybe because what i did in taking this baby as my own and breaking rules to do so, is sooo unbelievable, and that I see and love this child just as i do my others, with nooo different loves, is maybe why some people cant see the truth and imagine all these stories. who knows??

Im telling all this cos its a part of this subject i think. I know the lady meant well saying what she did. Loads of people say similar stuff and i should have a big head by now, but i dont. Not even a little bit. If anything it makes me feel weird cos it reminds me im not normal does that make sense? I just hear the parts where she said.. 'nobody does that?!'
So why didi do it? To me i couldnt not do it. I dont deny it hurt me, but i had no choice, if i love i love. Even here with the kids, theres only one type. I just cant seperate partner from friend from genetic child to non genetic. Its all one same type of love. Its kinda crowded in my head lol Is it really a gift, or is it a curse? i dont know really...

Now Nicole..Im rambling

[KimberlyS]

Karin I am glad you are getting things worked through in your head. And I think it is GREAT that you can do it with Steph.

[Nicole Rose]

Thanks Karin, for that info, your heart is bigger than all you're bows combined, and thats a lotta bows, i really appreciate your openess and honesty.Karin you are a wonderful woman and sweet girl, and did i mention sooooooo funny what is love you know Karin, whatever it is , you have lots. Nicole

[StephnieJoy]

Karin, listen to me sweetheart......there's a VERY thin line between emotions...(NO! NOT emoticons...LOL)...but seriously...

Thin lines between love and hate.

Thin lines between new and used.

Thin lines between now and then.

Thin lines between Heaven and Hell.

So where ya' gonna go? What is LOVE? I meekly submit:

LOVE is what YOU make it.

And I make it, and myriad people on here make it...LOVE is the way WE make it....and it doesn't get any better than that....WE make it...WE ALL make it...in incrementally non-ostentasiously increments...WE make it...and it's really undefined my sweet....

WONDERFULLY, yes...even sacrificiously discreet...and hot-on-the-heels of........the indiscriminate and well-heeled elite!

Make sense?

[RebeccaF]

So in my absence, the social worker dwelled upon these things and steph gave her side of the story. The social worker was in tears, said i am a beautiful person, and even said she doubted her partner would do what i did?? She also said we are the nicest family shes ever worked with. One thing she said was that maybe because what i did in taking this baby as my own and breaking rules to do so, is sooo unbelievable, and that I see and love this child just as i do my others, with nooo different loves, is maybe why some people cant see the truth and imagine all these stories. who knows??

Im telling all this cos its a part of this subject i think. I know the lady meant well saying what she did. Loads of people say similar stuff and i should have a big head by now, but i dont. Not even a little bit. If anything it makes me feel weird cos it reminds me im not normal does that make sense? I just hear the parts where she said.. 'nobody does that?!'
So why didi do it? To me i couldnt not do it. I dont deny it hurt me, but i had no choice, if i love i love. Even here with the kids, theres only one type. I just cant seperate partner from friend from genetic child to non genetic. Its all one same type of love. Its kinda crowded in my head lol Is it really a gift, or is it a curse? i dont know really...

See all these things hon make you the unique, caring, fantastic, fascinating individual that you are.

'To me i couldn't not do it' - that is a wow moment there missy, you jumped in, made a decision to stay in a potentially very difficult place that many would have run away from, without a thought for yourself - with just the future of your family foremost in your mind. Some say that it takes guts to walk away from a relationship when it seems to have gone Pete Tong, but it takes courage and faith in yourself to stay when it's tough and sort it out, for the benefit of all of you. I have to agree that it's a bit of a no-brainer really, if you wanted your marriage to continue, what else could you have done? That's not to take anything away from what you did though, a truly amazing thing. You demonstrated unconditional love right there, and every day since.

You are lucky to have them for sure, but by golly are they lucky to have you. Not surprised you made the social worker shed a couple - I did too.

As for the 'what is love?' - it's what you want it to be hon. Everyone will look at it differently, maybe you just have lots of love to share. That is a wonderful thing indeed. Surely to make others feel loved is a gift to be proud of.

I love my wife, I love my beautiful children so much it hurts, I love my friends, I love my car! All in totally different ways of course but at the core of it is the same basic feeling - the desire for them to be happy, content, warm and safe. I think also it is important that they know I love them.

Bless you hon, you make me ponder on stuff I wouldn't otherwise have pondered.

xx Becca xx

[Karin]

Insanely good sense Stephnie, . And thankyou Becca and Nicole

I really appreciate these comments as I try and articulate this better..

Now we all know that gender isn't binary right? There's a million shades of grey in between male and female. Take that idea to LOVE. Most people seem to perhaps have the non binary version of that? A spouse may ne different to a friend, who is different to a child, or indeed a car.

My whole thing I've been trying to explain is that for me love is binary. I either love or i don't. I don't get a choice it just happens.

What is it to me? It means to care for deeply, to think of often, to want happiness for no matter what, to worry for, a strong need to feel connected to, to miss when they're not there, and to feel incomplete if they're not about.

That's what it means to me, no shades of grey, its all or nothing. When I hear it said to me also, this is what it means. All the people I love, I love the same way. I don't know why, I don't know if I like it or not, but just for one day it would be nice to experience the ability to seperate like everyone else?

I prolly sound mad now.

[RebeccaF]

What is it to me? It means to care for deeply, to think of often, to want happiness for no matter what, to worry for, a

I think this is common to most (all?) of us but I think people layer other emotions on the top that changes 'love' for a spouse, for example, into something different than love for a child. Perhaps you just don't do the 'layering' part, therefore to you love is love is love. Not diminished in any way but tidily uniform in a 'one size fits all' - this is 'Karin-love' type of way. Simple, uncluttered, effective. Like binary.

xx Becca xx

edit - this http://youtu.be/smmtzejfpZ8 is for you. It won't help much though...

[Karin]

Hahaha Becca . I used to sing along with that one back in the day actually...

Layering strikes a chord with me. This is definitely key I think. The layers I think you mean for a spouse to me are things like physical 'attraction', like interests, it could be children too I guess, humour and stuff like that? To me these are totally seperate to love but a mixture is required alongside love to make a real partner. All these layers could be totally disconnected from it in my mind. I mean take the 'physical attraction' for example. To me that's lust not anything to do with love. We all know people can hit the hay without ever feeling a touch of love? It happens all the time we all know that.

So when you take out everything and are just left with love and nothing else, I find its the same for me with all the people I feel it for. I miss and crave everyone the way I would my partner.

I've been talking about this a lot lately and somebody mentioned another angle on it too. Unspoken love. I've never had the ability to leave it unspoken if I feel it. I'm a bit of a rentagob I guess, but if I love someone, they damn well know. It eats me up if I don't tell. It feels to me though that everyone else has this ability to just sit back and love without feeling the urge to display it? It doesn't eat at them maybe. Is this cos they have a range of strengths of love where a lower dose doesn't feel so strong? Or do they have this burning desire to shout about it like I do, but they're strong enough to hide it?

Now that I would really like to know! And thankyou so much for all these different perspectives on this cos its soooo helpful for me to make comparisons and if nothing else to understand a somewhat unknown subject to me. I haven't got it all exactly straight, but all this chatting here, with friends and also with my wife has really made me feel better

[MarshaInez]

Hi, just wanted to add my opinion, I think what I have learned from all is LOVE is giving more of yourself than you ever expect to recieve, and being loved is having someone or thing do the same for you.

Many times it is a onesided street, but the dream of all of us, GLBT and straight, is to find the person who gives at the level we do.

With an open heart

Marsha

[Paula G]

Many years ago I was engaged to a girl I loved passionately, indeed if I am honest I still do. This was a blazing love, a jealous all consuming love, it burned bright and fiercely, it scolded and burnt. I love my wife, this love is a glow, it warms and feeds rather than consumes, it makes me content, comfortable and this is the person I choose to grow old with. Maybe it is the person and not the love that is different, but either way the outcome, the experience is different.

[Judith(SO)]

Karin, HRT has varying side effects on us too, and many of them aren’t that good I’m sorry to say, and many women have to stop the treatment before they can halt what can be an emotional roller coaster ride, but of course there are many variations of the medication which doctors may have to prescribe before a compatible one can be found for each individual.

I’m afraid I couldn’t answer your original question in one line because my feelings of love for different people varies, and also, I’m not certain that love can be put into words so one can appreciate the true feelings which it inspires.

As an example, words wouldn’t do justice to the bond of love between my hubby and me. The true depth of emotion of it is in the eyes when we look at each other, or when we make physical contact, however brief that may be. It’s in our presence of being in the same room together, or side by side in the car, and so on. It’s a bit like comparing a magnet, where one can see the object but can’t see the magnetic field, same as hubby and I can see each other but what emanates between us is invisible, but the feelings are real and they’re wonderful.

It’s different with the love of my children. When I hug the girls or we hold hands or touch cheeks the emotion of love which flows between us is something special, which is probably only experienced by a mother and child.
Again, when I hug my brothers or put my arm around their shoulders or vice versa it’s a different degree of love which flows between us, but it’s real and something to enjoy and hold onto.
Again with my parents it’s different again, but oh so real and comforting, and a real feelgood nicety.

I remember a time not long ago when I was having lunch out with my two older teenage girls and the conversation came up as we sat and watched people, as one does, going about their day, couples holding hands and doing what young lovers do, and my eldest daughter asked me, ‘How do you know when you’re in love?’
My answer simply was that when it happens you’ll know, nobody can accurately tell you beyond all reasonable doubt how falling in love will feel, as wonderful as it is, because we’re all different and the words which may describe and apply to one may not accurately suit another, but when it does happen, you know, and only you will know beyond all reasonable doubt, but as to whether it is something which will stand the test of time is something nobody can say with any accuracy.
Love can sometimes be mistaken for infatuation, affection or just needing someone to be close to share things with when we’re having doubts about our life. There will always be challenges in our life and sometimes we need the help of others to work us through them.
You’re a smart person and you’ll find your way through the challenges which lay ahead of you with your chosen ( or maybe designated) path in life, and I wish you all the success with it, but there are probably those who along the way may prey on your good nature or situation, if you drop your guard, life's like that, you know what I mean.

Also, thanks for your help, I appreciate it so much, you’ll probably never know how good you’ve been for me through our correspondence, I can’t thank you enough.

Judith.