Is there a difference

[Penni SO]

HAPPY NEW YEAR LADIES,

My question to you all is::

Is there a difference between a Crossdresser who dresses 24/7,and a non SRS Transexual??????hope you can help on this one.

Hugs Penny

[Elizabeth]

Hi Penny,

Strictly speaking, a crossdresser would be a person that is happy being a man, but finds relief in dressing as a woman at certain times. My assumption has always been that a major requirement of transsexuality is a dislike of ones biological gender. A feeling of being trapped in the wrong body.

So a crossdresser dressing 24/7 because he likes being dressed in the clothes is different than a transsexual who hates his male body but either can not or will not have SRS. They wish to be identified by society as a woman all the time.

I would like to add that theorhetically if a crossdresser wanted to remain dressed 24/7 it is unlikely that person would be satified with thier birth gender and only dress for relaxation or to feel sexy. My opinion would be that a person that crossdresses 24/7 could not really claim to be a crossdresser. If they were making such a claim, I would assume they are still in denial.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[DonnaT]

A CD who dresses 24/7, meaning even at work, is also known as a transgenderist.

A TGist is similar to a non-op TS (by choice, not circumstances), except that the TS identifies as a female where the TGist still identifies as a male or as a combination of male/female.Some TGists may undergo some treatments to look more like a woman, such as hormones and/or laser hair removal.

[TracyQ]

A CD who dresses 24/7, meaning even at work, is also known as a transgenderist.

A TGist is similar to a non-op TS (by choice, not circumstances), except that the TS identifies as a female where the TGist still identifies as a male or as a combination of male/female.Some TGists may undergo some treatments to look more like a woman, such as hormones and/or laser hair removal.

Yeah, I guess that's me.

The truth is that I really don't know what I am!

I mean, on the one hand, I know that I am a man, and that all the surgeries in the world will still leave me as a man who has had surgeries, and yet, I'm not really much of a man, am I? And yet, I have, and have always had so many female/womanly traits and characteristics. I have had surgeries to make me look more like a woman, and to facilitate my 24/7 dressing, yet I know they don't make me "more like a woman". Well, maybe they do make me "more like a woman", but they don't make me a woman. I wish I had been born female, except that then I would be so "ordinary", and would not have experienced this strange trip that has been my life (and if that's not crazy, what is?)

"Dressing up" (my work wardrobe consists of women's tops and jeans,usually) still pleases me, but not in a sexual way, anymore. It used to, though. So there is that "transvestic" component. And yet, I just LOVE relating to other people and the world as a "woman". No offense meant here, but as a polite, caring, "feminine" being, not necessarily "submissive", person. That's just me.

Like I said, in the end, I don't know who I am, other than me; and "me" is neither and/or both, a man and a woman.

Interesting question, Penni, and one I don't have an answer for.

[CJ]

Hi all,

Wow! Three great responses to a tough question. I notice that all three responses have to do with what the difference may possibly be when looking at things "from the inside." To an outside observer such as, say, Penni, that possible difference may be harder to see (hence her question, I guess).

Here, we come across the boundary (or the yawning chasm) that divides not only transgender but any experience between its subjective and objective aspects. People too often assume that individuals who look, act, and behave similarly have a similar inner experience of the objective world when, in fact, nothing could be further from the truth. A non-op TS is not a transgenderist is not a CD... even though--especially to the untrained mind and eye--all may appear similar in the way they present to the world.

I think, Penni, the only way you can get a satisfactory answer to your question is by answering it yourself in regards to this or that specific individual. If you've come to know someone well enough over time (and assuming that person is capable of faithfully reporting her own inner states of mind), you'll be able to discover where she situates herself on the TG spectrum.

Again, great (and tough) question, Penni. Thanks. And a very Happy New Year to you, too!

Love,
CJ

[Stephanie W]

Penni

I think Elizabeth said it well and I would certainly agree with her characterization of the differences in how we see each other. I would also wholeheartedly agree with CJ with respect to how we appear to the 'outsiders' of our TG world. It's up to us to educate them from our own perspective. The fact that we are all different in our own special way will undoubtedly complicate their TG education but we all have to start somewhere and questions like this are a great place to begin that process.

Stephanie

[Sylvia H]

Janice,

I get a tad tired of the demarcation line that is drawn between a cross-dresser; which I certainly am and the transgender community. This seems like a kind of self imposed hierarchy which we really don't need.
That is one way of looking at it. Let me suggest another. There are a lot of shades of gray here. (Tends to keep it interesting) It is not a heirarchy so much as making valid distinctions. Heirarchy implies a vertical power structure.
I am very new here and realized right away there is more diversity of purpose in this group than I suspected.
I believe TGs have a different set of priorities than non TGs, There is nothing wrong with that.
So far I dont think there is a common reason to CD. A common behavior yes. But all of us have different ways of evaluating and deciding how and why.

I hope this sounds ok. Im not particularly good at writing things unless having thought about them a while. And this was written in a hurry.

As to Pennys original question, of course there is a difference, but the answer is way more complex than the short question would indicate.

Ill shut up now.

Sylvia

[Elizabeth]

Janice,

When I first arrived here a few years ago I had never been exposed to the transgender community. I thought everything was black and white. I thought the term "crossdresser" and "transsexual" were interchangable. Because of my isolation I assumed that everyones experience was like my own. I had no idea that there were people who enjoyed dressing in women's clothes but were happy to be male and really had no desire to change that.

I started reading posts here and asking questions and before long I realised there was this whole spectrum of feelings about gender. Some longing to be women, like me and others just to feel feminine at a time of thier choosing. I eventually realized that the fact that I crossdressed did not make me a crossdresser. Even though I still consider myself a crossdresser, I am really transsexual.

The thing is, I don't think what we are feeling is different. I think that feeling of wanting to be the other gender and express that part of ourselves is the same. I am sure there are others who will dispute this, it's just my feeling. I beleive the only thing that separates us really is how long we have to wear the clothes to ease our gender dysphoria. For some, it's just long enough to releive themselves sexually, for others it's hours of relaxing doing a favorite pastime or hobby. For others like, the dysphoria is never cured, only appeased.

While some may view this has a heirarchy and somehow think that someone is more or less transgender based on their need to dress, I don't see it that way at all. I see it as different people having different needs. For me, it's as simple as that.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[DonnaT]

I get a tad tired of the demarcation line that is drawn between a cross-dresser; which I certainly am and the transgender community.
<snip>
I just cross dress and no more, does this leave me that different from a true transgender male who is fortunate enough to have a slight physique who has perhaps gone the whole nine yards and had the operation.

I am a crossdresser as well as transgendered.

Some CDs/TVs are trans, some not.

To me, what it means for me to consider myself as trans is having this unexplainable urge to CD, where the urge comes from somewhere deep inside.

If anyone desires to deem themselves as not being trans, that's their right, but it's not their right to say, for example, CDs are not trans. If I say I'm trans (for the reason mentioned above), then I'm trans.

[Lydia]

Ah - Semantics again.

A word means whatever you want it to mean. See the discussion about words between Alice and Humpty Dumpty.

However, a word also means whatever the reader or listener wants it to mean.

If I say,"I am a crossdresser." To Mr. A, that immediately implies that I am gay. To another, it means I am a trans-sexual. The "semantic reaction" to the word may be quite independent of the dictionary definition. If we want to be strict and logical about this, we should agree on a set of unambiguous definitions. Frankly, I doubt if that will ever happen.

As I read the above posts, I feel that people are saying the same things about different words, and different definitions for the same words.

However, it does not make the discussion any less interesting or useful. Go to it, girls !

Hugs,

Lydia

[Anita]

If I say,"I am a crossdresser." To Mr. A, that immediately implies that I am gay. To another, it means I am a trans-sexual. The "semantic reaction" to the word may be quite independent of the dictionary definition.

There's an important point. All of these words we're using here have many shades of meaning in our community, AND...they also have a lot of emotional baggage attached to them. Some of that baggage comes from the public, and some of it gets generated right here among us.

To answer Penni's question: I'd have to say that only a few crossdressers who dressed 24/7 would still define themselves as CDs. At that point, some other term just 'fits' better, and they'd probably be using it.

I do notice, though, that there is resistance to coming up with another term. What I consider myself, for instance, would currently be considered a transgenderist, but that a clumsy term, to me. I wouldn't use it to describe myself to friends and family.

I usually say, "I'm transgendered," and make a quick explanation about how I work and socialize as a woman. Or I say, "I'm a transgendered gal," with a big smile. {Because I look nothing like a gal in 'civilian' life}.
I note here that even saying "I'm a transgendered woman," seems a bit too formal to me; I might use that term in a speech, but I'm not real comfortable with it in day-to-day life.

As I read the above posts, I feel that people are saying the same things about different words, and different definitions for the same words.

They are, and we all can get very emotional about it. I know that I do! And I see some strong reactions at support group meetings when people use seemingly innocent terms, and get fired on by someone else for using them. These are all transgendered people, too, and even they can't avoid hitting the verbal landmines that we've strewn around ourselves.

[Sally]

Hi Penni,
I’ll give you my opinion from my personal perspective and try to keep it as simple (imagine me trying to keep things simple lol) as possible, because I think by the brevity of your question you’re probably looking for answers which don’t split hairs so to speak.

Firstly, I think we all live in our own heads and I can’t really speak for anyone else because each individual has the reasons in their head as to why they do what they do and what it does for them. I’m a person who usually dresses 24/7 and I wouldn’t class myself as a so called crossdresser (even if others do at times) because I’m not doing it for any fun or erotic reason, all the clothes do for me is that in their own way they make it easier for me to deal with the denial of other things. I believe that the major difference between a Crossdresser and a Transsexual is that the CD may spend quite a lot of time dressing but they are happy and content with their physical make-up, whereas a person such as I place much less importance on clothing and outside appearance, but the major area of concern is denial of genitals. I’m sorry if anything offends you because that’s not the intent, I’m trying to give you some ideas straight from the horses mouth so to speak.

I certainly would never say that I’ve ever felt like a woman trapped in a man’s body because I live in my own head and never anyone else’s, I know my limitations and I’m a great believer in making the most of what we have and don’t go reaching for the unknown, because sometimes what we wish for may not meet our expectations in the long run. I was given XY chromosomes and I’ll never ever know if my perception of being female is anywhere near identical of that of an XX woman. I’m not a person who goes overboard on personal labels, although they are needed for quick identification, but I do prefer to think that the best person to really know who and what they are is the person themselves. I’ve always believed that it’s really impossible for anyone to be able to know for sure exactly what’s going on in someone else’s brain ( you can’t learn that out of a book or by lectures), and that’s where everything we do originates from, and any individual is only what they are according to what their brain tells them they are. The brain never lies, it follows the course nature originally wired it to while we were in the womb, it tells us what’s right or wrong for us, but sometimes we contaminate those natural messages by fear of repercussions if we follow our natural instincts.

I’m also a believer that it’s a necessity for any individual to first be one hundred percent honest with themselves before they ever try to figure out who and what they really are, and this doesn’t just apply to people in the TG world, it applies to everyone. It happens on a regular basis that many of us are less than honest with ourselves so we have no hope of being honest with anyone else. Too many times a CD or a TS will give the answers which they believe they themselves or the other person wants to hear. They’re scared of the repercussions if they tell what’s really going on inside their head. Too many times a person may say to their partner that it’s only the fun of the clothing as to why they dress up, but deep inside their soul they may well know that it’s something much more involved, but if they tell the complete truth they fear how their partner will or may re-act.

Similarly, it happens that a person may say that they’re TS because they believe that it’s more acceptable to some people because it’s backed up by the medical and psychiatric professions, but really they know that it’s nothing more than a fun thing to do, or a turn on, or has erotic implications, or it just feels good, but for various reasons they believe that if they come out and admit to those reasons then they’ll be stigmatized.

Summing up my thoughts, I think that the only way you could ever differentiate between someone who dresses 24/7 and a pre-op TS is if they told you what they know they are. It’s not all that common for non TS people to dress 24/7, but my guess would be that those people who do are somewhat more than what is generally accepted as a Crossdresser. That’s not to say that they’re TS, far from it. There are indeterminable numbers of areas in between CD and TS, and only the persons themselves know the extent of where they would place themselves in the mix of it all. Someone who dresses 24/7 and lives the life of a female is sometimes called a Transgenderist by the medical people who work in these areas. They’re happy and content with their physical make-up and in no way are in denial of their genitals, and that’s the big difference to someone like me who is classed by the medics as a pre-op TS. What I can say is, in my case female hormones and anti-androgens have been heaven to me, although the denial of my physical make-up will always be with me, but it doesn’t haunt me anymore. I’ve given the reasons a number of times in this forum as to why I haven’t completed my transition, one of them being that even after surgery, to me I’d still be the same person inside my head, and that’s where it all happens, so what I may gain may well never compensate for what I may well lose due to the fact that my wife has always been honest with me in that she could never give any guarantees as to how she’d fell when I was post op.

Kind Regards,
Sally.

[Lydia]

From Sally:

I’m also a believer that it’s a necessity for any individual to first be one hundred percent honest with themselves before they ever try to figure out who and what they really are, and this doesn’t just apply to people in the TG world, it applies to everyone.

Well said, Sally. We often fool ourselves, especially looking in a mirror and seeing an image quite different from the actual reflection. No matter what you do, you cannot change the basic XY configuration, and you still look like the "guy in a dress." I think that applies to most of us, but then there are the lovely exceptions - young and slim. I look at them with envy. GRRRRRRRRR

There is another area where candor and honesty are a necessity: your relation with your partner - SO, GF, wife ... In some cases that has to be approached with tact and delicacy, but eventually must come out - for your own well-being as well as hers.

Thanks for your essay, Sally.

Hugs,

Lydia

[Absaroka]

A non SRS is not crossdressing. They are dressing correctly for their gender but for whatever reason they have chosen not to have surgery.

A crossdresser is specifically dressing contrary to the gender they consider themselves to be.

The question probably has more to do with folks who are of ambiguous gender(perhaps any form of clothing is to some extent crossdressing for some people) or unsure about what they are.

Absaroka

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

I'll assume for that we're talking about people who aren't interested in GRS, rather than people who want it but can't have it for whatever reason (financial, medical, committed to SO/family, etc.)

I think "gender dysphoria" actually have three elements:

- sex identity -- i.e. whether you identify as male or female physically. Someone who's non-op is probably less uncomfortable in this dimension.

- gender self-identify -- i.e. how you see yourself in non-physical terms, e.g. masculine and/or feminine (or neither)

- gender social-identity -- i.e. how you want to interact with others based on gender and the social roles based on gender you're interested in partaking in/willing to accept, e.g. man or woman.

Someone who's cross-living probably feels a stronger degree of discomfort (as their birth gender) than someone who only crossdresses part-time.

For what it's worth, the term "transgender," before it became an umbrella term, was originally coined to cover people who cross-lived (with or without hormones, and possibly FFS and/or breast implants) but without GRS.

I think these are useful groupings, but it's important to realize there are gradations rather than sharp demarcations.