Hi CJ,
The "crossings" that Ms. McCloskey so melodically describes are qualitatively different - like comparing oranges with ice cubes. Crossing or emigrating from one culture to another can be difficult and even traumatic, but it does not include structural, biological changes. Whether you are a NOTS (non-operated transexual) or an OTS (operated transexual), and living as the "other" gender full time, there are some cultural changes, of course, but there are accompaying physical changes, perhaps induced by medicines or hormones.
Her rhetoric is lovely, but I fail to find much value in her comparison, indeed, equation, of the two kinds of "crossings". I don't see how such a notion can help anyone going through a "crossing" - of either type.
Hugs, and thanks with coming up with an interesting excerpt.
Lydia
Topic of the Week: Excerpt Discussion
Moderators: KimberlyS, CathyAnn
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Anita
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3068
- Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:55 pm
- Location: Burlingame, CA (San Francisco Bay area)
Hi CJ--
I'm glad you brought up Deirdre McClosky, since she was a major influence on me when I was a new transgal, scared and searching hard for answers as to what was happening to me. Her book, Crossings, was one of only two that I could find at Border's.
Her book scared me even more than I already was, because it was about "going all the way." It hit a little too close to home for me at that time. (Ms. Vera's book was the other one--it was light and fluffy and fun to read.)
Deirdre has often been ignored or bashed by the TG community, and I guess I'm blind to her faults. As to what she's saying here--I tend to find some value in it. The biological aspects of crossing are dramatic and get a lot of attention--especially the surgery. But the cultural aspects of crossing are the day-to-day experiences that go on for the rest of a TG woman's life. In that way, she will always be the immigrant, doing her best to assimilate to a new culture.
But I guess I would have to say, Lydia, that in the end I'm agreeing with you. Crossing gender is comparing ice cubes to oranges no matter what other aspect of life you choose to focus on; it is like nothing else that we do in our cultural lives. It's been compared to a spiritual journey, and it does have some things in common with that search.
But in the end, it stands alone, because of its unique combination of extreme physical AND cultural changes.
I'm glad you brought up Deirdre McClosky, since she was a major influence on me when I was a new transgal, scared and searching hard for answers as to what was happening to me. Her book, Crossings, was one of only two that I could find at Border's.
Her book scared me even more than I already was, because it was about "going all the way." It hit a little too close to home for me at that time. (Ms. Vera's book was the other one--it was light and fluffy and fun to read.)
Deirdre has often been ignored or bashed by the TG community, and I guess I'm blind to her faults. As to what she's saying here--I tend to find some value in it. The biological aspects of crossing are dramatic and get a lot of attention--especially the surgery. But the cultural aspects of crossing are the day-to-day experiences that go on for the rest of a TG woman's life. In that way, she will always be the immigrant, doing her best to assimilate to a new culture.
But I guess I would have to say, Lydia, that in the end I'm agreeing with you. Crossing gender is comparing ice cubes to oranges no matter what other aspect of life you choose to focus on; it is like nothing else that we do in our cultural lives. It's been compared to a spiritual journey, and it does have some things in common with that search.
But in the end, it stands alone, because of its unique combination of extreme physical AND cultural changes.
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CJ
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3562
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 11:12 pm
- Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Hi all,
Thanks, gals.
Heh. I just knew there had to be a way of getting Lydia to post in this thread! 
Seriously, though, I'm of two minds (not to say, of two genders) about this passage in McCloskey's Crossing; on the one hand, I find that her comparison between gender crossings and travel to foreign lands is, ah, poetic, at best. Not so sure whether or not the thing has cultural significance or psychological relevance, but it's beautiful imagery nonetheless. I, myself, have never been, for any serious length of time, a "stranger in a strange land" (not even if that land is "transgenderland," as I don't crossdress very often--especially not these days), but I do understand McCloskey's point, though; any transsexual who decides (and has the emotional and financial means) to "move" permanently to the other end of the gender spectrum is, in a very real sense, "emigrating" to womanhood or to manhood, as the case may be. It's a very tough thing to accomplish ("costly and opposed," in McCloskey's own words) and, as often happens in the lives of immigrants, it's a thing done out of necessity--political or economic survival, for the one, and, at the very least, psychological and emotional survival, for the other. Still, these similarities aside, I think Lydia's right to say that the two kinds of crossings don't quite mesh in their meanings. The cultural context absolutely needs to be considered; immigration--especially in this age of increasingly mobile populations--has a place in the "standard practices" of a globalizing economy (including the welcoming, by wealthy nations, and for humanitarian reasons, of the world's "tired, poor, huddled masses yearning to breathe free"). There's room in the public square, and in the mind of John Q. Public, for the normal eventuality of immigration. Not so for transsexualism or crossdressing, however much a gender-variant individual may be, poor, tired, or yearning for freedom. For John Q. Public, gender variant behaviour remains a cultural praxis non grata. So, in the end, these two types of "crossings" differ enough that we can only "imaginatively" associate them. And this, I think, is what Deirdre McCloskey has done, in her own literary way, in the excerpt above. It works, but maybe not quite the way she wanted it to, it seems.
On the other hand, her notion that the "passages" we go through in our lives, and that our crossing of borders (physical, emotional, or otherwise), are a form of education, in and of themselves, piques my curiosity and sets gears turning in my mind. Yes, sure, "education" does, indeed, mean "a leading out of" (I assume, out of an impoverished life) and, as the author points out, we are forever leading ourselves out of something and into something else. But this is called "living." It has little to do with schooling (as she seems to imply). After all, the word "school" comes from the Greek skholē, meaning "leisure," and if you can find me even one person that equates school with leisure, I'll eat my wig.
So, even though McCloskey refers to this kind of education at length, I'm sure this isn't the kind of education she really wants to talk about. It's beside the point. When she talks of "crossings" in relation to education, I'm thinking she's referring to the act or process of leaving one (presumably) "safe zone," or known quantity, for another. Whether out of curiosity or necessity, or both, depends on individual circumstances, I guess. Here, I think she hits the mark; crossing over from X to Y (or, in McCloskey's case, from XY to XX... figuratively speaking here, folks, figuratively speaking!), especially when the destination can never be known "from within" beforehand, is, indeed, an education in and of itself. It takes courage, drive, resilience, openness, stamina, perseverance, and a willingness to learn in order to successfully "transit" from X to Y--especially when Y really is unknown. (A sense of humour is not required but nevertheless highly recommended.) In that transit, assuming we make it through, we acquire much that we may have previously been lacking and that will be needed for the journey ahead. This, truly, is education. This is life. McCloskey captures this sense well, I think, in the excerpt above.
Anyway, just my low-level take on it. Any other comments? By the way, Anita, the irony isn't lost on me that you would find Crossing at Border's, of all places! Ain't life grand? 
Love,
CJ
Thanks, gals.
Heh. I just knew there had to be a way of getting Lydia to post in this thread! Seriously, though, I'm of two minds (not to say, of two genders) about this passage in McCloskey's Crossing; on the one hand, I find that her comparison between gender crossings and travel to foreign lands is, ah, poetic, at best. Not so sure whether or not the thing has cultural significance or psychological relevance, but it's beautiful imagery nonetheless. I, myself, have never been, for any serious length of time, a "stranger in a strange land" (not even if that land is "transgenderland," as I don't crossdress very often--especially not these days), but I do understand McCloskey's point, though; any transsexual who decides (and has the emotional and financial means) to "move" permanently to the other end of the gender spectrum is, in a very real sense, "emigrating" to womanhood or to manhood, as the case may be. It's a very tough thing to accomplish ("costly and opposed," in McCloskey's own words) and, as often happens in the lives of immigrants, it's a thing done out of necessity--political or economic survival, for the one, and, at the very least, psychological and emotional survival, for the other. Still, these similarities aside, I think Lydia's right to say that the two kinds of crossings don't quite mesh in their meanings. The cultural context absolutely needs to be considered; immigration--especially in this age of increasingly mobile populations--has a place in the "standard practices" of a globalizing economy (including the welcoming, by wealthy nations, and for humanitarian reasons, of the world's "tired, poor, huddled masses yearning to breathe free"). There's room in the public square, and in the mind of John Q. Public, for the normal eventuality of immigration. Not so for transsexualism or crossdressing, however much a gender-variant individual may be, poor, tired, or yearning for freedom. For John Q. Public, gender variant behaviour remains a cultural praxis non grata. So, in the end, these two types of "crossings" differ enough that we can only "imaginatively" associate them. And this, I think, is what Deirdre McCloskey has done, in her own literary way, in the excerpt above. It works, but maybe not quite the way she wanted it to, it seems.
On the other hand, her notion that the "passages" we go through in our lives, and that our crossing of borders (physical, emotional, or otherwise), are a form of education, in and of themselves, piques my curiosity and sets gears turning in my mind. Yes, sure, "education" does, indeed, mean "a leading out of" (I assume, out of an impoverished life) and, as the author points out, we are forever leading ourselves out of something and into something else. But this is called "living." It has little to do with schooling (as she seems to imply). After all, the word "school" comes from the Greek skholē, meaning "leisure," and if you can find me even one person that equates school with leisure, I'll eat my wig.
So, even though McCloskey refers to this kind of education at length, I'm sure this isn't the kind of education she really wants to talk about. It's beside the point. When she talks of "crossings" in relation to education, I'm thinking she's referring to the act or process of leaving one (presumably) "safe zone," or known quantity, for another. Whether out of curiosity or necessity, or both, depends on individual circumstances, I guess. Here, I think she hits the mark; crossing over from X to Y (or, in McCloskey's case, from XY to XX... figuratively speaking here, folks, figuratively speaking!), especially when the destination can never be known "from within" beforehand, is, indeed, an education in and of itself. It takes courage, drive, resilience, openness, stamina, perseverance, and a willingness to learn in order to successfully "transit" from X to Y--especially when Y really is unknown. (A sense of humour is not required but nevertheless highly recommended.) In that transit, assuming we make it through, we acquire much that we may have previously been lacking and that will be needed for the journey ahead. This, truly, is education. This is life. McCloskey captures this sense well, I think, in the excerpt above.Anyway, just my low-level take on it. Any other comments? By the way, Anita, the irony isn't lost on me that you would find Crossing at Border's, of all places!
Ain't life grand? Love,
CJ
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Virginia
- Goddess of the Universe
- Posts: 5543
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:06 pm
- Location: Strange Magic Hill
Having read the treatise several times I am somewhat at a loss as to which way to tack. Kinda like the person who ran out the back door, jumped on a horse and rode off in four directions as once, but here goes.
If we are talking courage, there are various degrees of intestinal fortitude.
The marine, wounded in both arms, awaiting transport to a medical facility, see an enemy grenade land among other wounded. He does not hesitate to fling his body on the grenade, dies valiantly and is later awarded the CMH.
Or several CD'ers standing around talking and the conversation is "let's go eat!?" I was privy to overhearing two of the girls in front of me and not knowing I heard them, say, "Oh no! let's stay here I don't want to be seen in public with _____ - she does not even come close to passing!" They were correct of course, but there ________ stood, ready to go out an face the great unwashed. I was not aware of how she felt about herself. That she knew she did not even come close to "passing" or maybe she thought she did or could! I have no idea, but she was ready to step out and take whatever slings and arrows came her way! Stupidity? Gutsy? or In Your Face? I have no idea where she was coming from, but regardless she impressed me with her intestinal fortitude.
I hand held a friend virtually from start to finish, i.e., from realizing she was "different" to being the last person she saw before she went "to sleep" to when she woke up and she had become a physical woman. If I think about it, I can honestly say, she showed no intestinal fortitude at all. She knew she was in a male body and that was wrong and it could be corrected with SRS. She never expressed any concern that it was maybe not the right thing to do or that she was scared of the surgery or what others might think. She just knew it was something that had to be done and she did it!!!!
When we look at the "continuum" and where we may fit on it, that is nice, but it took some amount of intestinal fortitude to even admit to oneself that " I am weird/different" "Why do I have this virtually uncontrollable desire to wear what society says I am not suppose to wear?"
In my own experience, why did I (almost) suddenly have this innate need to cry at things that never concerned me before, or the desire to "touch someone" who seemed to be suffering, or to just hold their hand or even listen to what they were saying, I mean really listen with empathy! Did that take guts? Perhaps accepting this "new" me did. To begin searching for answers, knowing that there could be consequences to airing the "new found me!" Yes that took guts! Some of us paid what can be describe as almost the ultimate consequence, the loss of friends, family, spouses, does that take guts!?
Most of us will readily admit that the Internet (and this forum) have, dare I say, saved a lot of us from a world of hurt. Some of us still hurt but finding others like us that have the empathy imparted here, I don't know if we really can appreciate what we have and share here. Love is a beautiful thing!
Does it take guts to love another human being, especially one who is of such a minority that they are or would be shunned by society in general if society only knew? Yes, it does but we find love and understanding here don't we!?
Love you all,
Virginia
If we are talking courage, there are various degrees of intestinal fortitude.
The marine, wounded in both arms, awaiting transport to a medical facility, see an enemy grenade land among other wounded. He does not hesitate to fling his body on the grenade, dies valiantly and is later awarded the CMH.
Or several CD'ers standing around talking and the conversation is "let's go eat!?" I was privy to overhearing two of the girls in front of me and not knowing I heard them, say, "Oh no! let's stay here I don't want to be seen in public with _____ - she does not even come close to passing!" They were correct of course, but there ________ stood, ready to go out an face the great unwashed. I was not aware of how she felt about herself. That she knew she did not even come close to "passing" or maybe she thought she did or could! I have no idea, but she was ready to step out and take whatever slings and arrows came her way! Stupidity? Gutsy? or In Your Face? I have no idea where she was coming from, but regardless she impressed me with her intestinal fortitude.
I hand held a friend virtually from start to finish, i.e., from realizing she was "different" to being the last person she saw before she went "to sleep" to when she woke up and she had become a physical woman. If I think about it, I can honestly say, she showed no intestinal fortitude at all. She knew she was in a male body and that was wrong and it could be corrected with SRS. She never expressed any concern that it was maybe not the right thing to do or that she was scared of the surgery or what others might think. She just knew it was something that had to be done and she did it!!!!
When we look at the "continuum" and where we may fit on it, that is nice, but it took some amount of intestinal fortitude to even admit to oneself that " I am weird/different" "Why do I have this virtually uncontrollable desire to wear what society says I am not suppose to wear?"
In my own experience, why did I (almost) suddenly have this innate need to cry at things that never concerned me before, or the desire to "touch someone" who seemed to be suffering, or to just hold their hand or even listen to what they were saying, I mean really listen with empathy! Did that take guts? Perhaps accepting this "new" me did. To begin searching for answers, knowing that there could be consequences to airing the "new found me!" Yes that took guts! Some of us paid what can be describe as almost the ultimate consequence, the loss of friends, family, spouses, does that take guts!?
Most of us will readily admit that the Internet (and this forum) have, dare I say, saved a lot of us from a world of hurt. Some of us still hurt but finding others like us that have the empathy imparted here, I don't know if we really can appreciate what we have and share here. Love is a beautiful thing!
Does it take guts to love another human being, especially one who is of such a minority that they are or would be shunned by society in general if society only knew? Yes, it does but we find love and understanding here don't we!?
Love you all,
Virginia
First star to the right, then straight on 'till mornin!
-
Lydia
- We Will Never Forget You - Rest in Peace
- Posts: 859
- Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 11:43 am
- Location: Sarasota, Florida
I cannot compete with the rhetorical skill of my sisters, CJ and Virginia. But I'd just like to emphasize my point, and caution all that I base my opinion on the excerpt that CJ posted. I have not read any more McClosky.
My question is what is the value of this poetic writing? It can be read for the sheer pleasure of following the thinking of a brilliant author. Unfortunately, however, the force of her argument falls apart as essentially psycho-babble. What insight can be gained from comparing these two kinds of "crossings", since such a comparison is fallacious?
For me, reading this exerpt does not encourage me to read anything else by McClosky.
Hugs,
Lydia
My question is what is the value of this poetic writing? It can be read for the sheer pleasure of following the thinking of a brilliant author. Unfortunately, however, the force of her argument falls apart as essentially psycho-babble. What insight can be gained from comparing these two kinds of "crossings", since such a comparison is fallacious?
For me, reading this exerpt does not encourage me to read anything else by McClosky.
Hugs,
Lydia
"There comes a time ... when you must grasp the bull by the tail and face the situation."
-
CJ
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3562
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 11:12 pm
- Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Hi all,
The following, by one of our preeminent drag artists, may have some merit to it. Or it may not. You be the judge.
August 18th, 2008
Letting It All Hang Out: An Autobiography
RuPaul; Hyperion, NY, 1995. pp. 188-191.
There are so many rules imposed on us about what we should do, what we should say. Boys should be boys, and girls should be girls. But says who? Little boys should wear blue and little girls pink, you should not wear white shoes after Labor Day, you should not pick your nose. Tell me who says that? Where do these rules come from in the first place? Who says you can't bend over backwards and eat bugs if you want to?
(...)
There is no higher authority on the planet, when it comes to deciding what's best for you, than you. Life is a banquet so you should eat until you're full, and do as you please as long as you're not hurting anybody else.
So when people try to rein me in with rules and dos and don'ts, I have always thought that it is absurd, and on the many times that I have come up against this resistance, this tsk tsk tsk, I have always chosen to follow my heart rather than follow their rules.
You can't get satisfaction living your life according to someone else's rules.
(...)
[E]xperience taught me that it's foolish to give what other people think about us so much credence. All that matters is how you feel about yourself. Do you love yourself? Ask yourself that question, right now, out loud and let the answer be yes. Some days you don't feel like getting out of bed and feel worthless. But don't ever give in to the temptation of not loving yourself. There is no reason--no matter what other people may think or say about you--not to love yourself. Because what other people may have to say about you is simply their opinion. It's not who you are. Their opinion about you is not reality. Reality is what's inside of you. So don't go falling for anybody else's crap. You can't control what others have to say about you. So don't worry about it. Save your energy for loving yourself, lighting yourself up like a lighthouse. And when the sun shines from inside it will create a beautiful glow that everyone will warm to.
(...)
Be whatever you want to be--that is the challenge--and feel free to use whatever you want to reinvent yourself as whatever you want.
(...)
I think the problem is that sometimes we take things too seriously and get stuck on the details. The question is not who you are, but what do you bring to the party. What can you contribute, create, invent?
And that is why I never have and never will define myself based on my race, sex, or gender, all of which I love. I define myself as RuPaul.
(...)
Remember: This flesh, this body, is just a temporary thing, and since you're not going to have it forever, it's important to work it while you can and live out the natural born queen inside of you to the fullest! So that once you are gone, you will leave behind a warm glow.
Take your place in the sun, because the war has been won. We are free to be whatever and whoever we want to be. And I love it.
Damn! Sounds like our own Jeannie was acting as a ghost writer for Ru, here.
Love,
CJ
The following, by one of our preeminent drag artists, may have some merit to it. Or it may not. You be the judge.
August 18th, 2008
Letting It All Hang Out: An Autobiography
RuPaul; Hyperion, NY, 1995. pp. 188-191.
There are so many rules imposed on us about what we should do, what we should say. Boys should be boys, and girls should be girls. But says who? Little boys should wear blue and little girls pink, you should not wear white shoes after Labor Day, you should not pick your nose. Tell me who says that? Where do these rules come from in the first place? Who says you can't bend over backwards and eat bugs if you want to?
(...)
There is no higher authority on the planet, when it comes to deciding what's best for you, than you. Life is a banquet so you should eat until you're full, and do as you please as long as you're not hurting anybody else.
So when people try to rein me in with rules and dos and don'ts, I have always thought that it is absurd, and on the many times that I have come up against this resistance, this tsk tsk tsk, I have always chosen to follow my heart rather than follow their rules.
You can't get satisfaction living your life according to someone else's rules.
(...)
[E]xperience taught me that it's foolish to give what other people think about us so much credence. All that matters is how you feel about yourself. Do you love yourself? Ask yourself that question, right now, out loud and let the answer be yes. Some days you don't feel like getting out of bed and feel worthless. But don't ever give in to the temptation of not loving yourself. There is no reason--no matter what other people may think or say about you--not to love yourself. Because what other people may have to say about you is simply their opinion. It's not who you are. Their opinion about you is not reality. Reality is what's inside of you. So don't go falling for anybody else's crap. You can't control what others have to say about you. So don't worry about it. Save your energy for loving yourself, lighting yourself up like a lighthouse. And when the sun shines from inside it will create a beautiful glow that everyone will warm to.
(...)
Be whatever you want to be--that is the challenge--and feel free to use whatever you want to reinvent yourself as whatever you want.
(...)
I think the problem is that sometimes we take things too seriously and get stuck on the details. The question is not who you are, but what do you bring to the party. What can you contribute, create, invent?
And that is why I never have and never will define myself based on my race, sex, or gender, all of which I love. I define myself as RuPaul.
(...)
Remember: This flesh, this body, is just a temporary thing, and since you're not going to have it forever, it's important to work it while you can and live out the natural born queen inside of you to the fullest! So that once you are gone, you will leave behind a warm glow.
Take your place in the sun, because the war has been won. We are free to be whatever and whoever we want to be. And I love it.
Damn! Sounds like our own Jeannie was acting as a ghost writer for Ru, here.
Love,
CJ
Last edited by CJ on Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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SilverLady(SO)
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Hi, CJ -
I have always thought the same thing as RuPaul (and Jeannie the Ghost Writer), and that is how I live my life . . . the above excerpt applies (or should apply) to everyone!
- SL
I have always thought the same thing as RuPaul (and Jeannie the Ghost Writer), and that is how I live my life . . . the above excerpt applies (or should apply) to everyone!
- SL
SilverLady(SO)
- Native Motor City and Wolverine gal . . . GO BLUE!!
- Molon Labe - Saepius Exertus, Semper Fidelis - Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum
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Proud Military Family - Navy, Army, Coast Guard, National Guard
- Native Motor City and Wolverine gal . . . GO BLUE!!
- Molon Labe - Saepius Exertus, Semper Fidelis - Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum
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Proud Military Family - Navy, Army, Coast Guard, National Guard -
Lydia
- We Will Never Forget You - Rest in Peace
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Cool exerpt, CJ. It expresses the ultimate of selfish Hedonism. I love it.
With legs like RuPaul's (that most of us would kill for), she can say anything.
Unfortunately, we haven't seen much of Ru on TV lately. What channels does she hang out on?
Envious hugs,
Lydia
With legs like RuPaul's (that most of us would kill for), she can say anything.
Unfortunately, we haven't seen much of Ru on TV lately. What channels does she hang out on?
Envious hugs,
Lydia
"There comes a time ... when you must grasp the bull by the tail and face the situation."
-
CJ
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3562
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 11:12 pm
- Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Hi, you two.
Yeah, I'm pretty much in line with what ol' Ru's saying above. Still, while I agree with such beautiful sentiments, I can't help but wonder if this isn't one of those homilies that might be tough to apply in "the real world" where, as Virginia sometimes says, our nose ends where another's fist begins.
Don't get me wrong, hedonism brings me great pleasure as well (and folks'll be talking about THAT line for months, no doubt! ) but it's much easier to "do as we please" in a world where nobody gets jostled by those things (or behaviours) that give us pleasure.
I do agree 1000% with one thing RuPaul says, though, and that's the fact that it's super important that we come to love ourselves as we are--regardless of what others may say or think of us. Loving ourselves does, indeed, make us shine. I've said it before and I'll say it again, this kind of "inner splendour" draws others to us... and, if we're really in tune with our own special "shine," we'll do what we can in order to help others discover their own radiance. I can think of many here, on this very forum, who've done, and who continue to do, just this very thing. No RuPaul required.
Love,
CJ
Yeah, I'm pretty much in line with what ol' Ru's saying above. Still, while I agree with such beautiful sentiments, I can't help but wonder if this isn't one of those homilies that might be tough to apply in "the real world" where, as Virginia sometimes says, our nose ends where another's fist begins.
Don't get me wrong, hedonism brings me great pleasure as well (and folks'll be talking about THAT line for months, no doubt!
) but it's much easier to "do as we please" in a world where nobody gets jostled by those things (or behaviours) that give us pleasure.I do agree 1000% with one thing RuPaul says, though, and that's the fact that it's super important that we come to love ourselves as we are--regardless of what others may say or think of us. Loving ourselves does, indeed, make us shine. I've said it before and I'll say it again, this kind of "inner splendour" draws others to us... and, if we're really in tune with our own special "shine," we'll do what we can in order to help others discover their own radiance. I can think of many here, on this very forum, who've done, and who continue to do, just this very thing. No RuPaul required.
Love,
CJ
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Jennifer M
- Miss Platinum Goddess
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- Location: Upstate New York
Definately words of wisdom,not just for us but for everyone in the world.I would have to say that really hearing and taking in these words from RuPaul,Jeannie,Virginia and everyone else on this forum has helped me more than I had thought possible.The more I like myself,the more I notice people taking an intrest in me,at least as Jeff.How they would react to me as Jennifer causes me to wonder but I am realizing that it is not as important as I thought.I still have a way to go to be totally happy with myself but I can go on with with the journey with the strength I find here.
Understand the voice within
-
CJ
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3562
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 11:12 pm
- Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
hedonism: n.
1. Pursuit of or devotion to pleasure, especially to the pleasures of the senses.
2. Philosophy The ethical doctrine holding that only what is pleasant or has pleasant consequences is intrinsically good.
3. Psychology The doctrine holding that behavior is motivated by the desire for pleasure and the avoidance of pain.
Source: American Heritage Dictionary
Hi all,
Sylvia,
Put another way, hedonism underlies every individual's pursuit of happiness. The principle was thought important enough even by your own national architects that it was--along with the assurance of the integrity of life and liberty--encharted in your Constitution.
It's that much easier to come to blossom and grow (and to be fruitful, creative, and productive) as individuals when we can live a life where it's possible to seek our own pleasure and happiness without our every attempt to do so being thwarted by the disapproval of others. The key, here--one not mentioned in any of the definitions above, but mentioned by RuPaul--is: IF, by doing so, we harm nobody else.
Ask anyone--child or adult--if she loves herself while she's surrounded by others who hate her or are disgusted by her. Ask anyone--again, child or adult--if she loves herself while she's surrounded by others who love, accept, encourage, and support her. In either case, and generally speaking, the answer won't be long in coming.
All these considerations are what had French Existentialist philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre state that, "l'enfer, c'est les autres" ("Hell is other people"). It's the whole "end of nose, beginning of fist" thing again. And it's the reason why we spend so much time and energy--as social animals--in finding ways to govern ourselves, both psychologically and politically, so that the greatest number of people can have a chance to achieve some good measure of pleasure and happiness in their lives.
It's a hard thing to do because, inevitably (warning: cliché ahead), one person's wine is another person's poison, and vice versa. It's an ideal that's still worth reaching for, though, just because the alternatives are--to my tastes, anyway--unpalatable.
For example, one reason all of us are here, now, on this forum (including the SOs, natch) is that we're looking for ways to increase our happiness and to diminish our pain. We're looking for tips, tricks, and techniques that'll help us learn how to better love ourselves. Oh, this isn't purely selfish, by the way; it's very difficult to love and to accept other people if we don't first know how to love and to accept ourselves (and I realize not everyone may agree with this premise but I've found it's true enough in my own life and in the life of many of my sisters here to have gained some merit in my own mind).
Just my two cents' worth, anyhow.
Love,
CJ
1. Pursuit of or devotion to pleasure, especially to the pleasures of the senses.
2. Philosophy The ethical doctrine holding that only what is pleasant or has pleasant consequences is intrinsically good.
3. Psychology The doctrine holding that behavior is motivated by the desire for pleasure and the avoidance of pain.
Source: American Heritage Dictionary
Hi all,
Sylvia,
Put another way, hedonism underlies every individual's pursuit of happiness. The principle was thought important enough even by your own national architects that it was--along with the assurance of the integrity of life and liberty--encharted in your Constitution.
It's that much easier to come to blossom and grow (and to be fruitful, creative, and productive) as individuals when we can live a life where it's possible to seek our own pleasure and happiness without our every attempt to do so being thwarted by the disapproval of others. The key, here--one not mentioned in any of the definitions above, but mentioned by RuPaul--is: IF, by doing so, we harm nobody else.
Ask anyone--child or adult--if she loves herself while she's surrounded by others who hate her or are disgusted by her. Ask anyone--again, child or adult--if she loves herself while she's surrounded by others who love, accept, encourage, and support her. In either case, and generally speaking, the answer won't be long in coming.
All these considerations are what had French Existentialist philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre state that, "l'enfer, c'est les autres" ("Hell is other people"). It's the whole "end of nose, beginning of fist" thing again. And it's the reason why we spend so much time and energy--as social animals--in finding ways to govern ourselves, both psychologically and politically, so that the greatest number of people can have a chance to achieve some good measure of pleasure and happiness in their lives.
It's a hard thing to do because, inevitably (warning: cliché ahead), one person's wine is another person's poison, and vice versa. It's an ideal that's still worth reaching for, though, just because the alternatives are--to my tastes, anyway--unpalatable.
For example, one reason all of us are here, now, on this forum (including the SOs, natch) is that we're looking for ways to increase our happiness and to diminish our pain. We're looking for tips, tricks, and techniques that'll help us learn how to better love ourselves. Oh, this isn't purely selfish, by the way; it's very difficult to love and to accept other people if we don't first know how to love and to accept ourselves (and I realize not everyone may agree with this premise but I've found it's true enough in my own life and in the life of many of my sisters here to have gained some merit in my own mind).
Just my two cents' worth, anyhow.
Love,
CJ
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Sylvia H
- Miss Emerald Goddess
- Posts: 201
- Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:21 am
- Location: Colorado
Thanks for the clarification CJ. I was under the impression that Hedonism only applied to pursuit of physical pleasure to the exclusion of everything else. Something I dont find particularly desirable for many reasons.
Consequently I think you can see why I was confused. Compared with the concept of self acceptance and doing what is in ones own best interest, they stand in stark contrast.
I wasnt looking at it from a philosophical or psychological point of view. Silly me.
xox
Sylvia
Consequently I think you can see why I was confused. Compared with the concept of self acceptance and doing what is in ones own best interest, they stand in stark contrast.
I wasnt looking at it from a philosophical or psychological point of view. Silly me.
xox
Sylvia
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Elizabeth
- Miss Ruby Goddess
- Posts: 1878
- Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 3:02 am
Hi CJ,
I really love this thread btw. I read RuPaul's book at a really critical time. I don't know how many of you remember when I left to stay with my best friend in Wyoming right before my marriage broke up and I went full time. That book had a lot to do with my decision to just be happy to be me.
That is how I live my life now. I live it for me. I was reading Virginia's post and I can tell you, I am sure there are many who would not want to have lunch with me, because they don't see me as passable enough. Mostly because I am not passable. No one is going to be fooled seeing me. But it really doesn't matter to me.
Even though I don't pass, I really don't get a whole lot of attention. I rarely see people stare at me or double take. Mostly because people just don't care. I really live in a "live and let live" place. Even places like school or courtrooms, I don't get any attention. Other than one time while I was waiting to file a restraining order, the judge asked "the lady with the fan to wait outside, it's distracting". I was having a hot flash, as usual, because of my fibromyalgi and I always have to fan my face.
It's my belief that enough pain will find it's way to me without me helping. I need to do everything I can to find pleasure. To seek that which brings me happiness, or at least not do things that I know make me unhappy. There are people, I am sure, who look at me and say "he gave up everything" to do this. But whatever I gave up, was never mine. The only thing I really gave up was "him". So whatever I am to others, I will always be "her" to me. This is who I am. Perhaps not passable, but definitely hugable.
Love always,
Elizabeth
I really love this thread btw. I read RuPaul's book at a really critical time. I don't know how many of you remember when I left to stay with my best friend in Wyoming right before my marriage broke up and I went full time. That book had a lot to do with my decision to just be happy to be me.
That is how I live my life now. I live it for me. I was reading Virginia's post and I can tell you, I am sure there are many who would not want to have lunch with me, because they don't see me as passable enough. Mostly because I am not passable. No one is going to be fooled seeing me. But it really doesn't matter to me.
Even though I don't pass, I really don't get a whole lot of attention. I rarely see people stare at me or double take. Mostly because people just don't care. I really live in a "live and let live" place. Even places like school or courtrooms, I don't get any attention. Other than one time while I was waiting to file a restraining order, the judge asked "the lady with the fan to wait outside, it's distracting". I was having a hot flash, as usual, because of my fibromyalgi and I always have to fan my face.
It's my belief that enough pain will find it's way to me without me helping. I need to do everything I can to find pleasure. To seek that which brings me happiness, or at least not do things that I know make me unhappy. There are people, I am sure, who look at me and say "he gave up everything" to do this. But whatever I gave up, was never mine. The only thing I really gave up was "him". So whatever I am to others, I will always be "her" to me. This is who I am. Perhaps not passable, but definitely hugable.
Love always,
Elizabeth
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KimberlyS
- Site Administrator
- Posts: 3341
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:01 pm
- Location: North Central USA, SD
Elizabeth in your post you say:
While we do not pass, I think your previous statements are the reasons that we in a way are non-passing-passing.
I am like you in that I have a very masculine look when enfemme. My advantage over you is I have a more feminine body overall. And my experience has been similar. I still get the looks and double takes and pauses when beginning to interact with people. But for the most part people do not notice or just treat me as they would anyone else.Elizabeth wrote:...Even though I don't pass, I really don't get a whole lot of attention. I rarely see people stare at me or double take. Mostly because people just don't care. I really live in a "live and let live" place.
While we do not pass, I think your previous statements are the reasons that we in a way are non-passing-passing.
Just like GG's know they are a female and do not have to prove it and can be out looking very masculine or a variety of looks. Your do not care this is me attitude is basically like that of a GG's just knowing she is a GG. In that through your attitude you do pass or are just accepted by others for who you are. They see you as a gal, just very masculine looking. And there are many GG's that have are very masculine looking also. And for the most part those that do give you trouble or make comments are the same people that make comments about anyone that looks different and does not fit up to their standards.Elizabeth wrote:... That book had a lot to do with my decision to just be happy to be me..... That is how I live my life now. I live it for me......I am not passable. No one is going to be fooled seeing me. But it really doesn't matter to me.
Site Administrator
I am a physically male person that likes to wear feminine clothes at times.
Just trying keep a balance for my self along with keeping my wife and kids in mind.
I am a physically male person that likes to wear feminine clothes at times.
Just trying keep a balance for my self along with keeping my wife and kids in mind.