How old were you

[Carolynn]

My thanks to people who continue to post to the poll. Again, if you would care to make comment, feel free. So far there are 42 out of 1276 members that have responded.

I have dug back through posts on another mostly TS forum, and resurrected the results of a poll there. Those results might be instructive, but again the numbers seem small compared to the membership. There are 695 REGISTERED members on that forum, and a total of 46 responded to the poll. Like here, people who are registered may be frequent visitors for awhile, then drift away, so though the registered members are 695, the number of people actually posting do not reflect those numbers. So, effectively, there are about 80-95 that can be considered frequent posters, and others are occasional posters. The numbers on the TS board in each age category are:

age 2-3=3; 4-5=21; 6-7=7; 8-9=4; 10-11=3; 12-14=6; 15-18=1; Adult (20 and over)=1.

If you will take a piece of notebook paper to roughtly plot them out, you will see a distribution with a large spike in the 4-5 years old range, followed by a gradual decline and then a minor spike at 12-14. Compare this distribution with the one in the poll at the top of this topic, and you will see that there are more CDers in the 10-11 years old range, but another smaller spike in the 4-5 years old range. It would seem that the difference in numbers in the CDer poll is unlikely to be significant, but a Students T-test might tell us if I can find the time to do it this week.

The spike in the TS distribution at 4-5 years old is the time that kids seem to discover their gender, according to recent research, and it is likely significant, but still a T-test would make it better.

There is a decent proportion of the CDers in this group, but the main spike is in the 10-11 years old range. This larger spike in the CDer distribution might be attributable to prepubertal interest in sex, maybe, or to the enhanced sensual feelings brought about by some increasing testosterone.

I am not too sure we have learned a lot for sure, but it is interesting to think about. Since no one seems to be trying to learn anything about CDers, maybe we need to do it ourselves, sorta?

Comments, anyone?

Oh, another thought. There are several people on the forum who are either living full time as women and/or consider themselves as non-op TS or transgenderists, and I did not notice any comment from them so do not know if they have responded. If you are one of those people, can you let me know with an additional comment about what you put on the poll? You can do it by PM if you like, as can anyone else. There were several non-op TS in the TS poll, but there was no real difference in their responses, just that they did not have the funds in two cases, and in one case, she can't even think about a transition due to family needs.

Thanks.

Carolynn

[Absaroka]

What is a T test?

Here is something someone could probably find to be the ultimate in confusing responses. I sometimes find waterfalls to be erotic. Given the number of love scenes filmed in waterfalls and that sort of thing I doubt I am the only one. As for the origins, I suspect it had to do with adolescent comingling of the sensual and sexual. No doubt a Jungian could have a field day with such a thing, water being a feminine symbol and so forth. I bring it up because to me it is a great example of the myriad of mysterious ways our minds work.

I think you are right that it would be interesting to know ages of onset of mere CDing vs age of onset of feeling TS.


Zari

[DonnaT]

Student's t-test deals with the problems associated with inference based on "small" samples. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student%27s_t-test

I reckon one could hypothesize that those in the 2-5 years old range in the CD poll are closer to TS on the transgender spectrum, and some may even decide to transition, or have a great desire to but won't, later in life.

[Carolynn]

Hi Donna. That is kinda the hypothesis that I was wondering about after seeing the two distributions. However, both the distributions are skewed a bit toward the younger end of the childhood scale, which makes sense, and there are other reasons (potentially) for the higher peak at 4-5 years old for the TS.

One of those potential factors that some cynical psychiatrists have raised is the question if there is selective memory going on amongst TS as they make a kind of "mythology" about their expected experiences to get their letters for surgery. That "Doubting Thomas" attitude may be one of the things that deflected a few Phd studies recently.

However, the interactive MRI studies seem to provide better data and basis for arguing an inborn self indentification of TS people at the appropriate stage of life. There is also increasing suggestion that there is a genetic component as more families are becoming more open about TS histories within their families. Well, still early days yet.

I have pretty well accepted in my own mind and from the research on TS I have read and my own intersex experience, that there is a prenatal brain involvement in folks who are TS not that much different from an intersex condition, and I have wondered what the same kind of interactive MRI studies might show in the brains of CDers regardless of motive.

I have mentioned the possibility to some people in a position to do the studies, and one person started a Phd study in Australia a year ago, but her advisors wanted her to concentrate on TS since there is still some legal battles to be fought there. We will see what her post-doc life brings in a few years, and meanwhile I am still talking with her to keep her interest up..

In the meanitme, I would like to sorta informally pursue this for the interest of the people on the forum. There have been numerous posts by folks trying to make sense of their CDing, mainly through anecdotal descriptions and meanderings and some pop psychology excursions (no offense to anyone) to date. I thought the poll could be a start of some more objective data?

[Anthony Simon]

Hi Donna. That is kinda the hypothesis that I was wondering about after seeing the two distributions. However, both the distributions are skewed a bit toward the younger end of the childhood scale, which makes sense, and there are other reasons (potentially) for the higher peak at 4-5 years old for the TS.

I'm one of the people in the 4-5 range and when I told my analyst about my fantasies, in which I'm a woman having sex with a man, he unequivocally said, in my fantasies, I was TS rather than CD (in this country transvestite).

I'm just wondering if you can do something with the data from the guy who does autogynophilia explanation of CDing. Because his definition of a CD is someone who has just these sort of fantasies. I mean I wonder if there's any relationship between having them and the sort of age you start CDing. Then you could use existing data (if he provides it).

One of those potential factors that some cynical psychiatrists have raised is the question if there is selective memory going on amongst TS as they make a kind of "mythology" about their expected experiences to get their letters for surgery. That "Doubting Thomas" attitude may be one of the things that deflected a few Phd studies recently

One way you could get around that would be to have some sort of study where you recorded the gender choices and fantasies of kids as they came up - and the followed them through their development to see how they played out. Trouble is the kids would be subject to all sorts of pressures (both internal and external) not to let on about socially unacceptable gender stuff at any and all stages of their lives.

The only people you really know about are the ones who "surface" - which means those who come for treatment or (as here) those who turn up to one or another support group. Both groups are self-selecting (at least I think so), so then you've got problems with skewed data.

On the "mythology" thing, everyone tends to make up a "story" about themselves. It is true of TSs, CDs and everyone else. If the guys are saying it's pecular to TS's just because they seek surgery, they are demonstrating a distinct lack of knowledge of human nature, including their own. It's a non-argument. Anyone doing research on childhood experiences would have to devise mechanisms for deciding what was and what wasn't true in what they were being told.

[Absaroka]

Anthony's last comment is a great one. If we assume that everyone has some self created mythology of who they are, then an early childhood TS mythology just becomes one more expression of the TS psyche.

Zari

[Anne Bonny]

I'm not sure if it counts but I remember playing in a back room of my grandmother's house with my sister, must have been about 4 years old, about 1961. Anyway she was going on about always wishing that she had a little sister, one thing led to another and I was buttoned or zipped up into a yellow dress with the poofy sleves. I felt strange, sensed that this was not really right, and a little while later I took it off, I do not believe anyone ever knew. I also remember about this time helping to wash down the decks of my dad's boat and must have been soaking wet because my mother removed my clothing and placed an adult t-shirt on me for me to go get in the car which I did not want to do - I was embarassed, so she had my sister go with me to the car. Another time an uncle was going through some clothing as I must have wet my pants and he pulled out what was a navy blue school jumper and put it on me as a joke before locating some shorts - As I say all of this remains clear in my memory and I am 54 years old now. Then came the age of "discovery" when I was discovering mastribation and erotic thoughts and fantasies, some where about this time I got the idea to try on an old maturnity dress and a pair of stockings in an empty apartment my grandmother owned next door to her home - the door was unlocked so I was able to enter and there were a few items left in the back of the house by the previous tenant. I am not sure if it was this specific incident but I do remember the excitement, the surge of butter flies, the quivering and fast movememt - peeking out a side window afraid I would be discovered, then mastribating and imagining being a girl, or being discovered - I was hooked forever - about age 9? that would have been about 1966.

[DeeDee]

I guess I should tell also, even though I posted some about this in the past. At about 4 y/o I remember putting on my all-in-one PJs backwards (yes it is possible even with the feet thing). Trying to snap it closed behind my back.....don't know why, but I tried. Later years just normal sneaking moms stuff til 7th grade when I got in the choir...sigh...a red cassock and white surplice and a huge bow at my neck! Somehow I got to keep that outfit til mom kinda made it disappear years later. Ok, and I posted one ages ago about "dee's first dress". So, I guess my progression was normal for girls like us, but it did start early!!!!!
Hugs all
DeeDee

[Carolynn]

Thank you for the vote and post DeeDee, and you as well Anne.

Carolynn

[Carolynn]

Hi All. Here is an update.

We now have a total of 47 responses to the poll, and there has been no new votes for several days.

On the TS board, a poll from 2009 was recalled and posted, wo for that board we now have a total of new + previous votes of 141 out of 697.

In addition, naturally, the intervals used were slightly different, enough that to make the two populations comparable, I had to collapse the intervals and convert the raw numbers to percentages of the total in each interval.

earliest memory
to 5 years old CD 16(34%) TS 84(60%)

6-11 yrs old CD 23(49%) TS 21(15%)

12-15 yrs old CD 3(6.3%) TS 19(13%)

Late Teens (16-19) CD 1 (2%) TS 3 (2%)

Adult (over 20) CD 4 (8.5%) TS 14(9.5%)
________ _________
Total population CD 47 (100%) TS 141 (100%)

What was interesting is that the resulting distribution is really not that different, despite the increase in raw numbers for the TS votes. The TS folk are still just a bit earlier in their early realizations than the CDers, but there is still quite a percentage of CDers in the same interval. But after that "earliest memory to 5 yeas old" category, the numbers for the TS falls off drastically, while the highest peak for the CDers remains in the 6-11 interval, then declines rapidly.

Still need to run signeficance test on the results, but have been working on a lesson plan for classes.

Later.
Carolynn

[Gillian]

I have been some what slow to respond to this thread due to the fact that I do not see myself fitting into the typical mold, that is if there is such a thing. My first experience was being put into panties as a punishment for peeing my pants, when I was 4. Being put into panties, and/or being dressed as a girl was a common punishment, or threat there of for many years. I am not sure when it stopped, but I would have been between 10 and 12. Yet, even during all of that time, I would continually dream, or have fantasies, about wearing girls clothes, expecially panties. I still remember waking up in the night from the midst of these dreams. It was some time around the age of 12 that I started to wear my Mums panties and lingerie of my own free will. "Dressing up" has been a part of my life ever since. There has only been brief periods when I did not dress up at one point or another. This was mostly when the children were young and there was little free time, or alone time. During all of this time the dreams were always there. Now I live 24/7 in lingerie and dress up occasionally, and never dream about it any more. Funny how those dreams were always there, and now they are not. At times I almost miss them, because they were such a normal part of my dream world.

[Carolynn]

Hi Gillian. Thanks for responding. I can understand your uncertainty about they way you came to dressing up. It is very unusual, I think. That you began to willingly wear femme wear as a teen would put you in the 12-15 yr old group since the reason for starting dressing is not an issue here, so you can join the poll if you want.. You can also select an earlier age given the circumstances, if there is a point at which you found some enjoyment of the punishment?

Carolynn

[Carol Ann]

I started fooling around with my mothers cloths at 13 and with in 1 month was fully dressing head to toe. at 14 I was busted red handed by my mother big time.

[Gillian]

Carolynn, I think that I came to a point of saying within myself, I would rather suffer the shame, than the beatings. Not that my Dad was cruel or something, it was that when he sometimes got mad, he just lost it. I can remember my Mum saying to him, that's enough. The last time he beat on me, she wasn't home, I couldn't sit properly for 3 days. I remember over hearing my Mum telling him, that if he ever hit me again, she would leave him, and the beatings stopped. So, I guess you could say that being dressed as a girl and the associated shame was preferable to the beatings.

I have never figured out in my mind what lead me to get into dressing on my own. It was the masturbating, and its effects that kept me going back. I do know that I was never man enough for my Dad, I remember him once saying to me that I spent to much time with my wife and children. You figure that one out.

[Absaroka]

I got hit, most kids did, and I didn't consider this abuse. I hit my kids, but not often and I stopped at about age 10. After that it's too much of an affront to their dignity to be effective. But not being able to sit right for 3 days is abuse, yes your dad was cruel, and the fact that your mom had to threaten to leave him is extremely telling.

Zari