A New Theory...

[Karin]

Ooooh. Did somebody mention bows?? Cough em up Leeza! Hahaha

I don't remember really playing with Barbies when I was young. My brother was older than me and my sister didn't come along till I was seven so there weren't any about to tempt me? I do remember spending a lot of time on arts and crafty type stuff tho.. and playing the recorder haha

Okay. So the mood I'm in today tells me that my gender situation is nothing to do with birth now. Maybe at birth I'm just an empty bucket waiting to be filled? The latest psych descriptor is a 'neurological development'. So in the same way as my tastes of music, food, humour and a whole bunch of other stuff developed as a result of millions of variables that make me an individual..maybe, just maybe my prefered gender is the same? Just as I choose to love the taste of chicken (yet hate the taste of eggs), my mind has somehow just picked frilly pretties as better than ugly stinky dude stuff?
Omg did I really choose this in myself?? Ah well I'm so fickle these days I'll Prolly have a new theory to blame tomorrow. Weird thing is its not really blame cos I like being this way, I'd just like to know why I am and most people aren't?

*runs off to the mirror to ask herself if she really DID choose this...

PS.. Rikki? The only way you'll get hold of any mercury around here is to eBay some cheap Chinese toys in and start licking...

[Sarah Ann]

Maybe at birth I'm just an empty bucket waiting to be filled?

Nope, we are only now realizing just how many of our characteristics are inborn. I firmly believe that I was born this way. However, before we start connecting this with various trendy environmental influences, we need to also explain why people (like the priests of Cybele, Chevalier D'Eon, etc.) were being born like this long before organic chemistry grabbed its current market sector.

[Karin]

Okay. So I ran to the mirror and asked 'me' if she chose all this??..
She cracked a sickly grin and said.."i don't care! Shut up cos I'm listening to 'Only You' by Yazoo...Go and eat an omelette."

WTF? I haven't eaten omelette since I was about five. Hmm maybe if I put some pepper in it...

Anyway. Here's another theory then - and its a bit of a stinker ..
Is it possible that my gender issues were caused by other people? Its been put to me on numerous occasions and from numerous people that it could be due to my wife's fling and the subsequent baby? *Oooh I can hear a pin drop in here now..told you it was a stinker!

Is this all because of relationships going down the pan?. Is there a connection of traumatic relationships causing massive demasculisation amongst our number? I can see how some may think that - given what happened - that it could be the cause? Of course it doesn't explain my dabbling before all that, it was getting louder in me anyway without a doubt, but there's no denying that Karin truly exploded into the world shortly after.

So here's the question..does a relationship breakdown cause a dresser? Or does a dresser cause a relationship breakdown? Maybe 'either or both'? Or maybe either of these simply 'magnify' what's already there? Maybe they're totally disconnected?

Being honest.. I also think I've been this way since birth too but the above question is a good point and... well I'd like to know 'anyone and everyone's' opinions anyway haha. I like to be thorough

[Anthony Simon]

Anyway. Here's another theory then - and its a bit of a stinker ..
Is it possible that my gender issues were caused by other people? Its been put to me on numerous occasions and from numerous people that it could be due to my wife's fling and the subsequent baby? *Oooh I can hear a pin drop in here now..told you it was a stinker!

Is this all because of relationships going down the pan?. Is there a connection of traumatic relationships causing massive demasculisation amongst our number? I can see how some may think that - given what happened - that it could be the cause? Of course it doesn't explain my dabbling before all that, it was getting louder in me anyway without a doubt, but there's no denying that Karin truly exploded into the world shortly after.

That is a big, unresolved question with you. Just what was the relationship between the stuff that happened to "him" in his marriage and what came next.

Cuckolding, followed by acceptance of the child as one's own might be experienced as diminishing one's masculinity. Not enough, IMO, to remove it entirely, though. On the other hand, it might be construed as an example of one's strength of character - to be able to overcome the hurt and take the child - and thus as a confirmation of one's masculinity.

But then decided you were a girl. The way you actually put it was "he died", which suggests (maybe) that what went on before was too much for "him".

I'm going to put myself in your place and say that, when "my woman" turns up, it's for contingent reasons. That is this is the best way for me to deal with problems in my life. And I have a feeling she's about to take a bigger place in my life because I need her there. So maybe that sort of thing happened with you - only on a bigger scale.

Like this was the way your brain worked out you could go on - become Karin - so you did it. Course, you're not me...

[Karin]

That is a big, unresolved question with you. Just what was the relationship between the stuff that happened to "him" in his marriage and what came next.

Well.. The marriage had collapsed to be fair. Enough for me to quit my job and take my kids across continents to escape the toxicity. Its hard to describe..we still cared but there was too much resentment on both parts also. Strangely I would often say 'oh its alright for you, you're a girl!' to my wife. I was resentful of the role placed on me - bringing in the only income meant I was away for up to three months at a time and I felt I had no life. I didn't want to go out partying or anything like that but just to be home with my family and part of it. I felt 'excluded by situation' if you like. And from where I was standing, being a mom was by far the better deal there. From my wife's point of view, she felt resentful that she was bound to the house with kids 24/7 while I was gallivanting around the world.. Spot the irony?

Cuckolding, followed by acceptance of the child as one's own might be experienced as diminishing one's masculinity. Not enough, IMO, to remove it entirely, though. On the other hand, it might be construed as an example of one's strength of character - to be able to overcome the hurt and take the child - and thus as a confirmation of one's masculinity.

Yeah. But... strength of character isn't a solely male thing you know? Women are strong too. Just sayin' thankyouverymuch haha
It could also be a case of I haven't overcome the hurt. I don't think people ever do really. It still hurts. But I wanted a baby. Badly. I remember when she told me what shed done and that she was pregnant. Amongst my many tearful comments to her I repeatedly kept typing "am I having a baby?" Into the computer screen that bought this news. It wasn't 'are you coming home?' Nope. It was 'am I having a baby?' Repeatedly. (I did want her to come home too, but it was the baby I asked about). So maybe I saw my chance and took opportunity? Sorta like..well okay I'll do this - but on my terms now? At that point I came out, got myself a baby and a new chance to connect with the woman I love. It wasn't consciously thought out in a devious way like that...but it sortve sounds about right.

But then decided you were a girl. The way you actually put it was "he died", which suggests (maybe) that what went on before was too much for "him".

I still say it was like quantum leap. The change happened very quickly. Like waking up one day and being mortified at my clothes. I went out and bought girl ones that day and haven't worn guy ones since. There's massive amounts of HIM I just can't remember either. It was like starting over. Learning everything all over again. What telly do I like. What food? But then other stuff like work..I remember mostly? My wife still regularly comments how weird it is living with a different person. It unnerves her sometimes cos she watches me and she knows I'm not faking it. She calls it something from her eclectic studies..."a walk in"

Like this was the way your brain worked out you could go on - become Karin - so you did it.

Escapism is tomorrows new theory! - Let's sort this one out first? Hahaha

[Anthony Simon]

I felt I had no life.

There is a certain kind of emotional logic which might underlie a move from that to "He died"

The change happened very quickly. Like waking up one day and being mortified at my clothes. I went out and bought girl ones that day and haven't worn guy ones since. There's massive amounts of HIM I just can't remember either. It was like starting over. Learning everything all over again. What telly do I like. What food? But then other stuff like work..I remember mostly? My wife still regularly comments how weird it is living with a different person. It unnerves her sometimes cos she watches me and she knows I'm not faking it. She calls it something from her eclectic studies..."a walk in"

See, with me, I know very well it's different person. But it goes in and out. It actually scares the living daylights out of me because I do kind of die when it happens - and who can tell if, one day, I might not come back.

Like this was the way your brain worked out you could go on - become Karin - so you did it.

Escapism is tomorrows new theory! - Let's sort this one out first? Hahaha

Well, there's escape and there's escapism. And there's some mix of the two, which is probably where I am with the CDing.

[Karin]

Your comments interest me Anthony...

You said that it IS like having another person take over for you. So I'm not the only one then?? Well, I can absolutely guarantee that they can just stay. Just like that and even if you try to be the old person again? You may find that you just dont know them. I remember sifting through all HIS belongings and thinking what the hecks this? or that?. I picked a few practical items I could use - and the rest got boxed and slung in the loft. My wife puts tv shows on that HE used to watch and I just can't get interested and potter around doing something else. Sometimes I'll pick something I fancy be it TV shows or foods etc and she will just stare at me? Apparently I do loads of things he would never do, cos Steph will just gawp at me going "but, but you hate that?!". Truth is I simply don't remember who he was, and its really difficult to cope with at times. On starting over I guess I've got different tastes in just about everything. Ie 'a different person' and there's nothing anyone can do... not even me - cos I've tried.

Another of your comments was that Eleanor 'appears for contingent reasons'. A coping mechanism of sorts? This feeds into my suggestion of whether or not all this happens due to other people? A defense against trauma. I guess that could be any trauma and not just marital.If there were no stress would it still be so?

[Anthony Simon]

I always have problems with breaks and separations from people - and I know that when I was younger that those sorts of times were the characteristic ones when the "turning into a woman" thing used to appear particularly.

Like those were the sorts of times when I would get mistaken for a woman in the street. The major version of that was when I was 9 and got picked to play Titania in a school play. That was going on at exactly the same time as my mother was pregant with my sister - which worked out as quite a big separation.

So that's what I mean by contingent in terms of, like, my life history. But, of late, I've been kind of taking a different approach. Like there are things about the experience of turning into a woman which I really like in terms of solving life problems. Like if I spend some time made up and everything then, it tends to give me space to work out stuff that otherwise I can't. Like the person I turn into has a whole new approach to life and I could do with that. So I've been actively trying to research how women talk, with the idea that that leads to how women think and, once one starts to think like a woman...

I'm pretty sure that Eleanor has large chunks of my mother in her - I mean the pictures they took of me when I was 9 made me look just like her and I can feel kind of the similarity in sensibility. But it isn't her. It is some fusion of bits I already know about myself and her and God knows what else.

There's no doubt there's large chunks of me. But they're kind of rearranged and redistributed and a new overall shape and plan provided. But I can feel that I'm not me as a guy - and indeed do feel I'm a woman. And it's got more intense the last few months.

I've always had that dread that I wouldn't come back. But I still kind of value the person I am as a guy - and feel somehow that, everything being equal, that's going to ensure that I do come back.

But there's also an element there which just wants to hide and disappear - and that's my kind of fear about it - that that element takes me (the guy) over and then I can't get back, although I ought to.

[Anne Bonny]

Hello Karin, you mentioned low testosterone level and light body hair. on you tube I came across Chloe Prince on our ABC Prime time a segment called Family Secrets it was in 6 parts, in part 2 of six Chloe found out she had klinefelter's Syndrome and after a bee sting she was in the ER and was treated with medications which pushed her hormone balance over the edge she then started developing breasts etc, with Klinefelter's instead of being XX she was XXY - Genetics it really does play a role for some it was fascinating She transitioned and is amazingly beautiful, looks GG! I wonder if we were tested what would be found. I know for $99 you can send a swab off for analysis, wonder if things like this would be looked at as well?
I know I don't have this my beard while not heavy is at least average. I think we are all curious to find out what makes us tick individually as Cross dressers, perhaps more of us than we know really do have a genetic reason to show for it.

[Karin]

I've been thinking about all this still...

It seems then that maybe the girl stuff is 'instinctively inbuilt' and when we suffer trauma or extreme stress then we just run to a safe place....Ie her? This seems to fit for me, how about you Anthony?

So assuming that "when I'm in a bad place" I go to a safe place..Ie become Karin. Then I suppose its entirely possible it could provide so much safety that of course I wouldn't want to leave there. Makes sense. But this is all on a subconscious level though and that's sorta significant I think? I've tried to be HIM and it ends in too many tears. So I'm preprogrammed to only feel truly 'correct/relaxed' as a female? Well that fits too then don't you think?

So if people/stress don't cause it, but perhaps (and in my case definitely) it can intensify it?

All this fits very well with me, but it all means that its origin is still unknown. So if I'm just 'born this way' I ask this...

Why do I like the food I like? Was I born 'that' way too? Or was it learned from life experiences? See what I mean?

Something happening to affect chromosomes is really interesting now Anne..
See I have issue with buying completely into the genetic theory because I don't understand enough of it. My brother and father are waaay hairier than I ever was..both are 'muggles' too haha. Why did I get baked so differently?. I spent my whole life being told I don't look my age too, and it was only recently..like very late thirties that shaving became a necessity? That happening largely sped up my need to fight my natural looks with hrt tbh. Up till then it wasn't as pressing. Maybe it was a bee sting for me too? Hahaha. Talking of which, there's currently a wasp epidemic here in the UK if anyone wants to volunteer
One thing tho - I have always had a lower T count than the guys in my family and SOMETHING caused it? Same thing that made me a girl in my head too I reckon... Maybe..in this same way that introducing hrt into my body effected me physically (and then mentally)...maybe something was introduced into my system earlier in life that caused me to deviate from the guy path in my family? I read once that the amount of estrogen in our water supply is rising all the time... I also grew up on a heavy 'dairy' diet if that's significant? Hmmm....

[Anthony Simon]

It seems then that maybe the girl stuff is 'instinctively inbuilt' and when we suffer trauma or extreme stress then we just run to a safe place....Ie her? This seems to fit for me, how about you Anthony?

OK. I mean I definitely do run home to "my woman" when I get in a certain sort of trouble. That happens when, particularly, my mind is going round and round to solve a problem and I can't. It's like I take a break from all that and start worrying about how convincing a woman I make.

Or that's how it was for a while. Now I find that, when I go into my woman, she takes me over and that kind of creates a stress of its own - like what if I don't come out?

There is a distinct theory out there - not about CDs but about men in general - that, as children, boys are part of "women's world", so that when they get upset they're allowed to run home to mummy, who comforts them. But, the theory goes, if this is done to excess, it acts to the detriment of their future masculinity. That's in a book called Manhood in the Making by David Gilmore (not the Pink Floyd guitarist) which I've quoted on here before.

A variant of that might be that being in "women's world" a lot socialises you more in the direction of being a girl than most men - which might be one basis for CDing. But there's a possible mental jump from running to mummy's skirts to getting into mummy's skirts as a form of comfort, which might occur under particular forms of stress. Which might be a possible basis for stress-related CDing.

Actually my mum was rubbish at providing comfort. So another variant might be I turned myself into a surrogate woman in order to provide comfort to myself - like a form of compensation for the fact there was no one else around to do it.

So assuming that "when I'm in a bad place" I go to a safe place..Ie become Karin. Then I suppose its entirely possible it could provide so much safety that of course I wouldn't want to leave there. Makes sense.

I think that might be (probably is) some aspect of it with you. But it doesn't feel like the major thing. Like the whole being a woman thing is such fun and joy to you - and that's been going on for such an extended period - that really it's got to have some major positive base. Like it can't just be running away from the bad stuff, there's got to be large chunks of finding the good stuff.

But this is all on a subconscious level though and that's sorta significant I think? I've tried to be HIM and it ends in too many tears. So I'm preprogrammed to only feel truly 'correct/relaxed' as a female? Well that fits too then don't you think?

So if people/stress don't cause it, but perhaps (and in my case definitely) it can intensify it?

All this fits very well with me, but it all means that its origin is still unknown. So if I'm just 'born this way' I ask this...

I'm guessing that, when your wife came back to you pregant, you decided to have a go at being a woman. I don't really know why you did that, except maybe "she" (or elements of "she") was buried inside you and you being "he" had always been something of a battle.

[Karin]

Or that's how it was for a while. Now I find that, when I go into my woman, she takes me over and that kind of creates a stress of its own - like what if I don't come out?

Oh I can TOTALLY relate to the 'her taking over' bit. It kinda happened here . To me tho, who you see now is the real ME? No more 'acting' whether consciously or subconsciously. Is it possible that Eleanor is the real YOU - when you take out all of societies expectations?
For me, my transition isn't so much of a change of person (Well.... it is) but its more of a change of attitude to societies expectations. I lived the first half of my life the way I was told to. Now its MY turn, so I'm ignoring your rules? I'm into what I LIKE and I won't go back in my box....

Actually my mum was rubbish at providing comfort. So another variant might be I turned myself into a surrogate woman in order to provide comfort to myself - like a form of compensation for the fact there was no one else around to do it.

So was mine. I know that its an awful thing to say - but it would be wrong to pretend otherwise. I don't ever remember being 'Close' to mine. Far from it too. I can honestly say that since cutting ties earlier this year? I've missed...nothing. The fact that anyone can say that tells something I reckon. Maybe that makes me a bad person? I hope not, but its the truth. I don't think she's anything to do with me being a girl..

I think that might be (probably is) some aspect of it with you. But it doesn't feel like the major thing. Like the whole being a woman thing is such fun and joy to you - and that's been going on for such an extended period - that really it's got to have some major positive base. Like it can't just be running away from the bad stuff, there's got to be large chunks of finding the good stuff.

Yes. It has a massive positive base for me. I get to wear things I've always wanted to - anywhere I want. I get a dress for Xmas instead of socks from my kids..c'mon?! How cool is that?? Not to mention that I'm free to display who I really am now. I don't have to show bravado. Its okay to be weak. I never ever liked being referred to as a man - now I don't have to. Liberating someone will always bring happiness....

I'm guessing that, when your wife came back to you pregant, you decided to have a go at being a woman. I don't really know why you did that, except maybe "she" (or elements of "she") was buried inside you and you being "he" had always been something of a battle.

The truth is.. This was stirring louder and louder before I found out about all that. When I came back to the UK I would drive for miles looking for a supply of girly socks like the ones I had in the states lol. My mother did the washing once for me and the kids... She came back holding a basket full of finished laundry. "I can't find any of your socks? But your daughter has LOADS?"

I said "Nuh uh! Those are mine too!" Her face was a picture as she handed me the basket saying "Oh. Erm well I'll let YOU sort those out between you then". Really funny actually.. When my wife told me, I had a choice really. What happened awarded me an immediate divorce if I wanted it. I had my own house. I had the kids safely at their school. I had a job. I had it all, while my wife had very little. I absolutely hate having power like that. Tell my kids they don't see their mom again for a loooong time? Tell my wife she doesn't see her kids too? How could I do that? The marriage had previously hit a point where we couldn't live together but we still held some love for each other too, so the thought of her single handedly bringing up a baby (living on her moms sofa ) wasn't good for me either. There's also the small fact that I really had been pining for a baby for about two years before that? So when we arranged to get back together it was done online, and two continents apart. It was then that I came out to her. It was all out in the open BEFORE we reunited. Sortve like 'if were gonna do this - you need to know who I am'. The scale of it wasn't stated, but she knew. She knew more than me.

Okay. Bit of a ramble there haha. But to me - it illustrates that stress just intensified it or created a door for me to walk through? So In this thicko head of mine, I still wonder if it was birthed in me, or if there's another external factor?

I still want to know if food tastes are genetic or learned too? Haha

[Anthony Simon]

Or that's how it was for a while. Now I find that, when I go into my woman, she takes me over and that kind of creates a stress of its own - like what if I don't come out?

Oh I can TOTALLY relate to the 'her taking over' bit. It kinda happened here . To me tho, who you see now is the real ME? No more 'acting' whether consciously or subconsciously. Is it possible that Eleanor is the real YOU - when you take out all of societies expectations?

I think she's more likely to be a part of the real me. Like I have a voice in my head which kind of feels like those pictures I have in the gallery look. She's way more reliable at working out how stuff really is as I am as a guy - and I've used that to do stuff. Like to guide me to what I should be doing.

So, in that sense, she's a part of me. The other way into this is that I feel that if my woman were to totally take me over, I'd lose the ability to do stuff in the world. I have that feeling over and over again - so it has to be true, really.

But what was a voice in my head and me dressing up - is turning into an entity I can feel as a woman. And what's going to happen if I'm walking around dressed up as a woman, feeling I'm a woman?

Other people seem to take this in their stride. Like they're a man part of the time and then they're a woman part of the time. But, for me, it moves the boundaries of my identity. So, before, like I was thinking "I'm a man" and the dressing up is...well, the dressing up.

But, if I'm being a man part of the time and being a woman part of the time, that sounds like some sort of place in between. I don't know what that is, but I can't seem to resolve the expectations of what society requires of me and the place I really rather like to go.

[Anthony Simon]

For me, my transition isn't so much of a change of person (Well.... it is) but its more of a change of attitude to societies expectations. I lived the first half of my life the way I was told to. Now its MY turn, so I'm ignoring your rules? I'm into what I LIKE and I won't go back in my box....

I certainly do pick up something along those lines - like about you throwing off constraints. Like the f*ck it thing. I don't know how much that is against society's expectations. You can have internal ones and also ones that come from more personal sources - like demands your family put on you.

Actually my mum was rubbish at providing comfort. So another variant might be I turned myself into a surrogate woman in order to provide comfort to myself - like a form of compensation for the fact there was no one else around to do it.

So was mine. I know that its an awful thing to say - but it would be wrong to pretend otherwise. I don't ever remember being 'Close' to mine. Far from it too. I can honestly say that since cutting ties earlier this year? I've missed...nothing. The fact that anyone can say that tells something I reckon. Maybe that makes me a bad person? I hope not, but its the truth. I don't think she's anything to do with me being a girl..

I certainly do remember a point with you where I said you'd have to open up with your family - Like because families are generally there for you - and then I though maybe she's like me with my family. And then I thought I'd better lay off.

I think that might be (probably is) some aspect of it with you. But it doesn't feel like the major thing. Like the whole being a woman thing is such fun and joy to you - and that's been going on for such an extended period - that really it's got to have some major positive base. Like it can't just be running away from the bad stuff, there's got to be large chunks of finding the good stuff.

Yes. It has a massive positive base for me. I get to wear things I've always wanted to - anywhere I want. I get a dress for Xmas instead of socks from my kids..c'mon?! How cool is that?? Not to mention that I'm free to display who I really am now. I don't have to show bravado. Its okay to be weak. I never ever liked being referred to as a man - now I don't have to. Liberating someone will always bring happiness....

Bravado is not my thing, Actually that's one of the bits of the male experience that is alien to me. It's so much effort. I'm a scared little man. I like to be a woman sometimes. Sometimes, when you put me under real pressure, I can be brave.

Most of the time I feel kind of weak and full of doubt and I like to think about stuff - like that feels like the real male me, who kind of morphs into the female me - who's like that but more emotionally sussed and possibly less intellectual.

When my wife told me, I had a choice really. What happened awarded me an immediate divorce if I wanted it. I had my own house. I had the kids safely at their school. I had a job. I had it all, while my wife had very little. I absolutely hate having power like that. Tell my kids they don't see their mom again for a loooong time? Tell my wife she doesn't see her kids too? How could I do that? The marriage had previously hit a point where we couldn't live together but we still held some love for each other too, so the thought of her single handedly bringing up a baby (living on her moms sofa ) wasn't good for me either.

That's a very striking statement "I absolutely hate having power like that" and I can totally relate to it. I mean who needs this stuff, to be in a position like that? But a lot of people love it.

There's also the small fact that I really had been pining for a baby for about two years before that? So when we arranged to get back together it was done online, and two continents apart. It was then that I came out to her. It was all out in the open BEFORE we reunited. Sortve like 'if were gonna do this - you need to know who I am'. The scale of it wasn't stated, but she knew. She knew more than me.

"Pining for a baby" - does make you sound very maternal. And there's some photos of you doing the baby thing and you seem to love it. So, I mean, that would be a large part of why being a woman comes so natural.

Okay. Bit of a ramble there haha. But to me - it illustrates that stress just intensified it or created a door for me to walk through? So In this thicko head of mine, I still wonder if it was birthed in me, or if there's another external factor?

Maybe your wife has some insights.

[Karin]

All of this still seems to point to the 'born this way' theory?

Dammit!. I'd really like for it not to be that way really? It just seems too easy to blame it on that 'hazy grey theory' that has no answers. I wish it had a more 'explained' answer Gah..

My 'T' count being lower than my brothers is undeniable and unexplained why?.

I also read this week that trials have proven that men have a greater tolerance to pain than women? They tested a bunch of people by freezing their arms and measuring brainwaves. Apparently guys are wired differently - in that pain affects a different spot in the brain. This affords them the ability to 'semi park' the message, and that let's them concentrate on dealing with the source of pain to remove it. Kindve like a hunter/fighters tool?
Women apparently are wired otherwise, and pain affects their 'emotions'. This means women get more emotional when hurt instead of 'parking it'. Hey don't blame me! That's what the report reckons..

Soo they got me there. Being too emotional when I feel pain is something I've been noted for- for my whole life. Low tolerance, tears and pretty 'animated' I can't deny.. That one IS 'born this way'..

Arrrrgh. Aren't there any neuro-surgeon / genetic scientisty / 'boffin' type people in this forum?? Surely they can't all be muggles?