Exhibitionism

Oregon (SO) · Post by **Oregon (SO)** » Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:52 pm

Oh I am almost worried I will hurt someone's feelings by posting this and that is not my intent, I truly promise. But this tread just happens to be happening at a moment in time where I am having to re-evaluate not only cd's but this whole idea of exhibitionism.

Since I run a business where I take crossdressers out shopping (with the option of being in male mode or en femme) I have to be witness to all kinds of levels of passability and such. Truth be told many cd's who I have taken shopping at mainstream stores are just too nervous to do it en femme. The ones who have gone en femme usually have a boatload of confidence regardless of how 'passable' they are. Their confidence in turn makes me feel even more confident and proud for them. So that has been my experienes. Most of the time the ones en femme do want to blend in, cause as little attention as possible, and just enjoy the experience without causing any unnecessary uncomfortableness by their presence. My own husband is this way, he would much rather be mistaken for woman than be read, but if it happens he is okay with it, but that is not his intent. His intent is not to get read as a man wearing ladies clothing. And mostly this is how most of the people I know who are cd's feel too. There is no desire to cause a rukus or anything, no disire to be an exhibitionist in public.

Well a few days ago I took a client shopping who looked like this :cheap party wig, no make up, ladies blouse, no bra or breast forms, flowing skirt with big pouffy petticoats underneath, tights, and mens shoes and a purse. He was roughly a ladies size 26 and I would say about 5' 9" tall. He was around age 50 and had the bushiest eyebrows. I was not fully aware that this is how he woudl be dressed and it really took be aback. Once I got to know what a nice man he was and (a few drinks later) I was okay. I also learned his motivatio....

He liked the idea that people were staring, liked if they whispered as we walked by, wanted me to call him a big sissy, wanted to curtsey, and just liked getting mostly negative attention for the way he was dressed.

This was like nothing I had ever been around before. I am used to someone looking like a guy or really making an effort to look like a woman. I am not going to suger coat my feelings, I was super duper stressed and this did not give me the same feelings as being out with a non-passable cd. This was on a whoile new level and it was for me a difficult day. I could hear little snickers and comments. No one threatened us, no one came up to me and freaked out, but I could see a mother cross the street with their kids as we approached.

So of course he was completely enjoying the humiliation, the degredation of being snickered at and that look of shock in peoples faces.

It was difficult for me to be around someone so desiring to be exposed in this way. Really his kind and gentle nature made it easier, but truthfully it was one of the hardest things I ever had to be around. This desire to be laughed at by women and the public was extended by his fetish for petticoats, chastity devices, and basically to be dominated verbally by females. It was just someting I am not used to and it made me almost feel like for all the acceptance I have in the world, obviously I have alot more to learn about.

There is this sub-culture in our community that does like to shock and get reaction and exhibit themselves. I don't think it is wrong or bad, but it is unnerving in a way that stealthy (trying to pass) crossdressing is not. Stilll trying to wrap my mind around this idea and hope I can.

And please I did not mean to offend anybody with this post. I am jsut trying to figure out who to handle this when and if it happens again....

kathy in canada

Beauty · Post by **Beauty** » Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:16 pm

Hi Kathy,

First I'm sorry you had that uncomfy experience.

Thank you so much for sharing it here because it totally sheds light on something that's hard to describe.

That's the kind of subtle exhibitionism I think runs deep in the CD community. This person is incredibly overt with his exhibitionism, but others do it more subtly. I don't think because you don't dress to pass you're an exhibitionist, but I do think when you wear things to shock only then you are.

These days it seems we can't say much without someone thinking we're passing judgement. Observations are observations and based on my understanding of something (like exhibitionism) I've observed I'm going to call it like I see it, but I never mean to judge anyone. Who am I to judge? I'll tell you who. I'm someone who's NOT worthy of judging anyone because I'm totally full of holes and glaring weaknesses. So if I sound like I am judging I'm not.

Great post Kathy!

Beauty

Loretta Ann · Post by **Loretta Ann** » Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:21 pm

He liked the idea that people were staring, liked if they whispered as we walked by, wanted me to call him a big sissy, wanted to curtsey, and just liked getting mostly negative attention for the way he was dressed.

It is impossible for me to imagine that man having a healthy self esteem. Is that how he loves himself?

I really wonder what he would have to offer others?

Loretta Ann · Post by **Loretta Ann** » Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:48 pm

Susann_Gardener wrote:
Darlene wrote:
Susann_Gardener wrote: But back to the subject, is this another expression of exhibitionism? I'm thinking we all (thats the big inclusive all) are guilty.
Well Susann,

Can you explain to me how one that lives by themselves and dresses (only) at home is an exhibitionist? Help me out here hon? What reference do you have for that kind of statement?
Darlene
I think this adds to the complexity of exhibitionism.
This was in reference to taking pictures of ones self. If we have pictures, we show them. Sometimes (as I think you are saying) we only show them to our selves. Does this fall into the subject category? I think it does, but in a different (maybe its just "safe") way.
Susann

Ok Then Susann include no pictures of ones self also. which many of us don't have. I won't even show a picture of myself in my avatar. Me thinks there might be another kind of complexity occurring here.

Oregon (SO) · Post by **Oregon (SO)** » Sat Aug 20, 2005 11:28 am

hi darlene,

appearently there is a whole sub-catagory of these cd's who like to be humiliated and snickered at in public. I really could not say he had a negative self esteem, he seemed sure of what he enjoyed and did not enjoy. There obviously is some underlying reason as to the 'why' but I am no professional and basically did as much as I could do in the capacity in which I am able. I could not 'get into' what he liked ...like I sid before, it went wayyy out of my comfort zone.

Actually I don't think he expects anyone to 'respect' him in that way. He said he was a virgin (i know, a 50 yr old virgin, sounds like that new movie!) and basically had never been on a proper date or ever asked a woman out.

very different indeed..

kathy

ps...also I am not sharing thsi story to embarass him or anything. He has no net access so I felt I had to share this with people I trust (you all on here). I actually was not sure if it was wrong to share this, but it truly was like no one I had ever encoutnered before....

Darlene wrote:
He liked the idea that people were staring, liked if they whispered as we walked by, wanted me to call him a big sissy, wanted to curtsey, and just liked getting mostly negative attention for the way he was dressed.
It is impossible for me to imagine that man having a healthy self esteem. Is that how he loves himself? I really wonder what he would have to offer others?

Marlena Dahlstrom · Post by **Marlena Dahlstrom** » Sat Aug 20, 2005 1:12 pm

Hi Kathy, unfortunately the kind of guy you descibed is definitely out there (in both senses). I'm sorry you became an unwitting tool in his acting out his fantasy.

I wonder how many of these folks truly have cross-dressing urges vs. being submissives for whom nothing can be more "humiliating" than to be put in to women's clothes.

Not that I think it's either/or. "Forced femme" is also attractive to a number of folks, although I think that has more to do with guilt avoidance, perhaps combined with a desire to be the "passive sex."

Likewise, there are definitely those who seem to get off being [edited] receptacles and otherwise playing the whore. Anne Vitale, a psychologist who specializes in working with TGs, once wrote a paper noting that some of them could be extremely sexist in male mode. She saw it an extension of their efforts at denial. So I suppose there might be a similar dynamic at work in these sorts of in some of these folks -- if cross-dressing is "dirty," then you must be a dirty woman. Of course, there's also probably some wish-fulfillment going on, i.e. "if I were a woman I could have all the sex I wanted" -- which seems particularly likely with your 50-year-old virgin. And also, for some the thought of being a "pervert" dressing for sexual reasons is probably a lot less threatening that admitting to gender discomfort.

Public humiliation does seem outside the "normal" kinds of motivations for CD/TG from what I've seen. A connecting thread may be the desire to be punished for his CD/TG desires, which seems common among the sissy brigade. And it sounds like your guy was fairly unattractive in male mode, so maybe any attention is better than no attention.

That said, I agree with Beauty, there's a touch of exhibition that's pretty common within our community as evidenced by how much most girls seem to love taking photos. I think it's one of the common motivations behind CDing (although I think CDing usually involves a host of drivers for most people.) Put more positively, it's desire to look good and show it off, which is something where men have less latitude that women. A guy wearing a tight muscle-shirt to the mall, will probably be seen as sleazy or narcissistic, while a woman in a tight sundress that shows off all her curves, probably won't elicit the same response (unless there's too much on display).

Of course not all women desire to do this, and feeling like you're expected to put yourself on display isn't much fun. But since most CDs are just visiting the other side and not living there permanently, it's something you can do, not something you have to do. It's probably similar to GGs who normally are "practical" in their appearance, but who do enjoy getting glammed up for special occasions.

Darla

Loretta Ann · Post by **Loretta Ann** » Sat Aug 20, 2005 3:13 pm

In part Darla Dahlstrom wrote:Hi Kathy, unfortunately the kind of guy you descibed is definitely out there (in both senses). I'm sorry you became an unwitting tool in his acting out his fantasy.

I wonder how many of these folks truly have cross-dressing urges vs. being submissives for whom nothing can be more "humiliating" than to be put in to women's clothes.

Kathy I agree with that assessment. That has to be pretty heavy stuff for a woman to have to deal with. My heart goes out to you. Boy talk about being moved out of ones comfort zone.

Anne · Post by **Anne** » Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:11 pm

There are so many levels to this question - maybe it can be more fully explored in separate threads as the subtleties come out.

As for those who love exhibitionism, I know it exists, I feel for those they may feel uncomfortable though. I'm definitely not in that class.

But many Ts who would not want to be publicly humiliated have web sites. For example, a local TS had a web site until just after she had surgery, then she left a one pager stating she had taken it down as she was in a new phase of her life. I have tried to get my head around the concept and the concept of what my other sisters are trying to accomplish. Some offer help, some a glimpse of what a good presentation is. But I don't know what they are truly feeling in getting out there. The whys of what we do & why outweigh the answers I have.

Anne

Beauty · Post by **Beauty** » Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:16 pm

Hi Anne,

Good question.

Public humiliation was just one phase of exhibitionism. There were several kinds of exhibitionism referenced in this thread.

Beauty

CJ · Post by CJ » Sun Aug 21, 2005 4:53 pm

Hi all,

Hmmm...

The relationship between exhibitionism and public humiliation is pretty complex, I think. Public humiliation (which seems to be a mainstay of what Darla calls the "Sissy Brigade"), far from being subservience or acquiescence, is, rather, the result of a special kind of authority. The person so humiliated is, at all times, in control of the situation (and maybe Kathy can vouch that this was the case in her experience with the 50 year old gentleman); whenever power exchange games are played (socially or otherwise), the more submissive person is really the one holding the reins or steering the course. That's why I believe Kathy when she says that there didn't seem to be major self-esteem issues with this man. He was in control. He had the power. I just find it unfortunate that Kathy got dragged into the acting out of his fantasies unaware. That's certainly not kosher.

As Beauty said, there are different kinds of exhibitionisms. There's the colourful display of self that seeks to shock and provoke. There's the ostentatious display of wealth or social status. There's the playful display of incongruities in our appearance (this, I think, is where that guy in sandals with the polished toenails would fit in). And then there's the "cross-statused" social display that's meant to invite scoffing and ridicule. A bank president or a high-powered corporate lawyer, for example, forcibly dressed as maids or other "socially inferior" roles (or, more accurately, wishing to be forced to dress as such), and then paraded around in public (visibly), are using a pressure-relieving psychological strategy that removes from them (albeit temporarily) the burden of responsibility they carry. In effect, they want the world to look at them and say, "look at you! You're helpless and worthless; you have not a single ounce of power!" (And, of course, in this culture, that power can come from the mere fact that they're male.) This takes the pressure off for a while. But only for a while.

I'm thinking this is the kind of exhibitionism Kathy encountered in the time she spent with this man. Whereas some exhibitionists will go out thinking Look at me, World! Aren't I something, baby! others will go out thinking Look! Look! See, World, how much of a nothing I am! In both cases, the effect on others may be similar but the psychological motivations are totally different.

Anyway, just my two cents' worth.

Love,
CJ

Loretta Ann · Post by **Loretta Ann** » Sun Aug 21, 2005 8:14 pm

In part CJ wrote:
Hmmm... The relationship between exhibitionism and public humiliation is pretty complex, I think. Public humiliation (which seems to be a mainstay of what Darla calls the "Sissy Brigade"), far from being subservience or acquiescence, is, rather, the result of a special kind of authority. The person so humiliated is, at all times, in control of the situation (and maybe Kathy can vouch that this was the case in her experience with the 50 year old gentleman); whenever power exchange games are played (socially or otherwise), the more submissive person is really the one holding the reins or steering the course. That's why I believe Kathy when she says that there didn't seem to be major self-esteem issues with this man. He was in control. He had the power. I just find it unfortunate that Kathy got dragged into the acting out of his fantasies unaware. That's certainly not kosher.

Can’t get my head around that one CJ.

If he has any self esteem it has to be a very sick one IMO.
Although perhaps unknowingly (I see) Kathy as being the submissive one. The gentleman I don’t think was being very gentle. On the contrary; quite rude, gross, etc. IMO.

In control? Yes! But only due to Kathy’s unawareness of what was happening.

Being in control and having the power has nothing to do with ones self esteem. It is some of the most insecure people who need the control and power to cover their insecurity. Show me a “my way or the highway” kind of person and I can show you a very fragile little scarred person that once their armor is broken falls apart very quickly. I can only guess at what that person thinks of himself to allow himself to be humiliated that way. The picture he presented was gross. I suspect that aligns with his inner picture. Although it may be a subconscious picture.

Beauty · Post by **Beauty** » Sun Aug 21, 2005 9:22 pm

Hi Darlene,

I think Kathy was totally in control of the situation and she wasn't being submissive, she was taking care of a customer and showing him acceptance.

This person may be exhibiting very unhealthy behavior, but I don't think he's any sicker than someone who drinks until they can't see straight. This doesn't justify either the drinker or the person who wants to be poked fun of, but it does shed light on me having compassion for him. I feel bad for this person, but for all I know in his daily life he could be the best banker, fireman, or scientist in the world.

Psychological troubles don't always equate with being a deviant. I feel so sad for someone who'd do that, but I also have compassion for him. I might not ask him to dinner tomorrow because his behavior causes me to pause, but I can't judge him on one really unorthodox display of his personality. I'm a human and just as fallible as him.

I think he was a selfish for putting Kathy in that position. I don't like him for casting TG'd people in a certain light, but maybe he grew in that outing because of Kathy's compassion. I applaud Kathy for not ending the session with him.

She's brave and again far from submissive.

So I'm not trying to convince you I'm right and you're wrong, but I thought you clearly displayed your feelings about this person and I wanted to communicate my own feelings that I don't think this person is a freak, weirdo, deviant, or bad person because of his behavior. I don't like what he did, but when people repress these feelings of being TG'd they have a way of coming out in the strangest ways.

Beauty

Loretta Ann · Post by **Loretta Ann** » Sun Aug 21, 2005 9:59 pm

In part Beauty wrote:
I think Kathy was totally in control of the situation and she wasn't being submissive, she was taking care of a customer and showing him acceptance.

This person may be exhibiting very unhealthy behavior, but I don't think he's any sicker than someone who drinks until they can't see straight. This doesn't justify either the drinker or the person who wants to be poked fun of, but it does shed light on me having compassion for him. I feel bad for this person, but for all I know in his daily life he could be the best banker, fireman, or scientist in the world.

Beauty,
What does being any sicker than someone who drinks until they can't see straight have to do with it? Are they not both sick? Is not the behavior the same? (destructive.) If it was way out of Kathy’s comfort zone (as she has stated) how can it be anything other than submission?

Hitler was also the best at what he did. It took the whole world to stop him. What does being the best at anything have to do with it? Some of the most ruthless people in the world have been the best at what they do.

Is having compassion that clouds reality healthy? (Not implying that to be your situation just wondering?)

Marlena Dahlstrom · Post by **Marlena Dahlstrom** » Sun Aug 21, 2005 10:48 pm

Nicely put CJ. The connecting thread between the various types of exhibitionism is attention getting. And the "dropping the burden" aspect of submissiveness is definitely part of it. From what I've heard, the clientele of professional dominatrixes are often high-powered individuals -- and not just because they can afford the rates.

But I agree with Darlene, my experience with control freaks is they typically have huge insecurities they're trying to defend against with a strong offense. It probably didn't surface, because as you've noted, submissives are the ones secretly in control of situations -- or at least they feel that way, which is probably more case here. As a client, I'm sure he had Kathy under control (of course in reality Kathy also had control over the situation), but if some TG-basher had decided to threaten real physical or mortal harm, he would realized that the game works differently in an unregulated environment and probably have melted-down, blubbering "that's not what's supposed to happen."

While I feel pity on him, to me he's still a creep for using Kathy in this way.

Darla

Beauty · Post by **Beauty** » Sun Aug 21, 2005 11:35 pm

Hi Darlene,

Correct both behaviors are destructive and both can be cured with therapy. During therapy people need compassion from friends and acquaintances who understand what these people are dealing with internally. I'm not so compassionate when someone doesn't make progress and just leans on others as a safety blanket.

Without knowing this person I'm not going to judge him harshly and from knowing Kathy I trust her judgment not to leave and don't see it as submissive.

Beauty