Crossdressers-Haven.com

I will try to phrase this as delicately as possible.

I have been trying for some time to get a crossdressing support group togather in Oklahoma. When I first let my crossdressing be openly known (about 93), There was a decent chapter of Tri-ess in the area. Sadly, it went under do to bickering and at the time, a few very vocal transgendered members wanting to move the group in their direction.

In trying to gather interested people, I am finding that significantly more individuals who state they are transgendered as opposed to crossdressers. One of the few outlets is a, ah, sexual site called FETLIFE. I had posted a notice that I was interesting in hearing from crossdressers interested in forming a support group. I was immediately co-opted by a woman who ran a transgender group, and reminded by several others that the group had monthly meetings.

My point is two fold. . .

Crossdressing support groups and needs of crossdressers are in many cases distinctly different than transgendered individuals. For example, Crossdressers would like to bring wives to help convince them that they have NO DESIRE to become women, but that is exactly the point of MTF transgender people. Apparently no one in that group seems to understand the concept.

I also noticed that even under the small crossdressing group, (on FETLIFE, as opposed to the smaller Crossdressing group), most of the members profess to be transgender as opposed to crossdresser.

Are we a fading collection these days supplanted by transgender? I have NO desire to be a woman, although I would not mind small breast implants. .

What are your thoughts? I can only find three people in the state interested in a Crossdressing support group. I think this is a significant issue, as I noted, a good number of crossdressers still fight to convince their wives they have no desire to become women. .

I certainly feel more marginalized.

You've stated your feelings very well, Wesley. The meetings my husband attends was a Tri-Ess years ago. Most members are CD, a few MTF. Problems started when their board didn't want to accept FTM members. So much for being inclusive.

The forum he's on has a few TG's, most all they post about is their hormone levels. The TG's views are very strident, trying to convince the CD's that they're really TG, but won't admit it.

That a CD has no desire to give up his masculinity is reassuring to a wife/SO. Any other way would not be acceptable.

Eileen

Every support group I have ever been associated with has been what I feel was all inclusive. Granted they do have a tendency to have their "cliques" but I have never been part of any organized group be it gender based, religious, political, or even public service oriented that doesn't have that. While I will grant you that in some cases transsexuals and crossdressers have different agendas they both seek acceptance and to live their lives as they see fit not what others feel is the "accepted norm."

Eileen (SO) wrote:
The TG's views are very strident, trying to convince the CD's that they're really TG, but won't admit it.

Eileen

That may well be true for that particular forum but it surprises me. For the most part I, as well as other transsexuals I know and have talked with about things like this, find that the exact opposite to be true. Way too many CD's associate the desire and appeal of the clothes to mean they were meant to be women. Nothing can be further from the truth as we all know. The vast majority of crossdressers are heterosexual and comfortable in that. If anything way too many SO's automatically jump to the conclusion that "he" wants to be a woman. I applaud you Eileen as well as the others I have read here who have been able to put aside those fallacies and see through to the truth that regardless of the attire the person before you is still the same person.

I also think inclusiveness is the right way to go. Apart from anything else, we don't need to be fighting each other, we're a small group with enough outsiders attacking us already. There's also the fact that the whole area is very vague - the boundaries between CDs and TGs are not at all clear.

I have to say I'm someone who does feel he turns into a woman, yet I don't feel TG describes me. I like this place because it allows for differences and revolves around a decent and (self-) respecting way of behaving.

A few weeks ago, a similar topic was burning in my mind. I had been doing a little bit of internet research and found that the term "transgender" can be applied very, very loosely.

Crossdress - in and of itself is a pretty self-explanatory term, but transgender... Not so black and white. From my understanding, it seems like virtually anyone can consider themselves transgender depending on how they feel at that given time. Maybe its just me... but I feel that there has got to be more to it than that. Seems to me that the term has lost a lot of its meaning.

This past summer, I met a guy who said he was transgendered. OK. Sure, but... the only outwardly indication of any feminine trait was blue nail polish. Otherwise, dressed in guy clothes, guy mannerisms, full beard... To me, that's not trans but, nobody can tell what and how you are feeling on the inside and that's the key right there.

Further, it almost seems to me that "trans", or "transgender" is the 'in' term. And while I totally understand and get that there is a difference, it might be that considering yourself trans is far more acceptable than saying you are a crossdresser. Maybe it's easier for people to understand? To me, and I assume to all members of this forum, they are basic concepts. In the meantime, inclusiveness is important. Ultimate goals may be different, but no doubt that there are some commonalities.

Somehow we seem to be getting lost in labels. The term "transgendered" was coined to be an all encompassing term. If you were to discuss the subject with a licensed therapist, particularly one versed in gender therapy, you would learn it runs the gamut. It includes the heterosexual crossdresser as well as transsexuals, both M2F and F2M, the more fetish style individuals and everything in between. In reality it is similar to many labels we lump groups into such Asian Americans, Baby Boomers, Gearheads, etc. While there are similarities in each of these groups there is far more diversity than similarities. For some reason people seem to prefer to lump groups under a tag rather than see the individuality within it.

Going back to your original post Wesley, yes the heterosexual, married crossdresser and the transsexual considering or going through transition have different issues and focuses. However they do face many of the same obstacles such as bigotry, stereotyping, ignorance, and rejection. That is where a support group comes in. For the most part the support groups I have been associated with over more years than I like to admit to are there to bring people together to help, support, and even offer a shoulder to cry on when needed. I applaud your efforts to start a support group to bring like individuals together to talk or commiserate about the issues they face in day to day life. I do hope you can see beyond the titles and be all inclusive. Being the small minority we are even within the LGBT community our diversity is where our strength lies.

As a CD, I also consider myself to be trans.

Early in my life (6) I had a desire to dress up. I've had the desire ever since.

What created that desire? Something deep within my subconscious, and I consider that something to be trans in nature.

Now, regarding a support group, just deem it to be for CDs and anyone else who considers themselves to be trans, but non-transitioning.

You aren't going to get everyone to agree that trans was originally intended as an umbrella term, and should remain so. In today's political climate, trans refers to those who are transitioning.

So put a limitation on the trans members to be non-transitioning.

Diana Michelle wrote: I applaud you Eileen as well as the others I have read here who have been able to put aside those fallacies and see through to the truth that regardless of the attire the person before you is still the same person.

It wasn't easy, Diana. Especially after stories that Cd's with an accepting wife start dressing nearly full time.

Eileen

This dovetails with questions that have been batting around in my mind. Granted these are labels and labels can falsify and distort, but still:

I get the feeling that the relative success in bringing transgender into the mainstream has caused CD to dwindle in the public mind. And that more CDers may be identifying themselves in their own mind as TG, whether or not they feel a desire to change from M to F.

I'm right in the middle. I have several circumstances militating against my changing from M to F, but I have felt the desire to do so, and were circumstances different, would very likely have become an M-to-F transsexual. In my own mind I am a CDer, yes, but I self-identify as TG. I think I would have adopted the TG label anyway, but how many of us would *not* have thought of ourselves as TG had not TG become such a widespread concept?

This leads me to wonder whether the CD label is in danger of becoming "old-fashioned" as the years go on, and as TG becomes ever more widely seen as inclusive of people who simply want to crossdress as well as all varieties of gender dysphorics.

Will this matter? Yes, I think it will. "It's only a label" isn't quite the truth. It becomes a matter of perception, and perception changes everything.

Love, Marissa Mae

I have been involved with support groups for a long time and understand that the different levels of transgenderism intersect and at times overlap. I am not a trained psychologist and that is the first step I tell any girl considering transitioning or even just living full time. Sure after a while you learn the signs and warning signs however that is where there are gender therapists who can properly help anyone sort out their feelings and situation. I know I am going to upset more than a few here but way too many girls are more infatuated with the clothes and automatically associate that with being a woman. There is a lot more to being a woman than the clothes and if any of you are even considering the concept of living as a woman I cannot impress on you enough the importance of professional guidance. I think most CD's, even the heterosexual ones, have fantasized at one time or another about "what would be like to be a woman?" It is not unusual nor are other fantasies, but 99.9% can sort out the difference between fantasy and what really is.

Eileen (SO) wrote:
It wasn't easy, Diana. Especially after stories that Cd's with an accepting wife start dressing nearly full time.

Eileen

That does happen in some instances Eileen however as I am sure you have discovered most CD's are heterosexual, happily married, and excellent fathers, they just like to sometimes wear women's clothes. Because there are still so many in the closet it is difficult to determine how often this really happens but the married CD's I know from the support group where I live all enjoy the male sides, they just like to have a soft side from time to time.

Transgender is a large umbrella term for just about anything you want to fit under there...Cross dressers...gender fluid....full time crossdressers....even transsexuals although personally I think of transsexuals as an entirely different category. The term "transgender" is rather broad.

Do this In placing your add insert a statement to set limits of who you would seek to be in the group. Perhaps state I am trying to form a group of Transgender men who consider their selves to be strictly Cross Dressers either full or part time without the desire for full reassignment surgery because this group is seeking to have a safe place where cross dressers can bring their wives or partners to enhance communication and as a means of supporting spouses and individual and married cross dressers in a safe non threatening environment.


Or something like that.

Hum...ok now that I went back and read everybody's posts in this thread...I agree we are a very small group that while very diverse share many similar problems. I have nothing against transsexuals have met a few on this blog and they have been very understanding nice and helpful to me so go with the inclusive route you will have to work to educate any nervous spouses of the truth that there is a difference between someone who is transsexual and since they are old enough to remember feel they are trapped in the wrong body for their gender...And someone who at times feels feminine and wants to dress to feel consistent with what they are feeling inside but who are strictly heterosexual and will never have any desire to transition to have surgery. there are many shades of color in between Gender Fluid...Gender Queer...FTM...MTF...lists of descriptors as long as your arm.

FIRST MAJOR REBUTTAL. . . ..

Some interesting points have been made, and I really appreciate the vigorous discussion. Let me start with a statistic. According to a screen capture from the way back machine, on February 21 1998, there were 47 Chapters of Tri-ess in the United States. Today, in 2015 there are an astonishing 14 Chapters.

Here is the Feb 21, 1998 version: https://web.archive.org/web/19990221203 ... apdir.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And May 20, 2016 version:

https://www.tri-ess.org/docs/chapter_list.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, from 47 to 14 chapters. Tri-ess is all but decimated. I have not mentioned it previously, but the Oklahoma City chapter went under due to the exact sort of infighting as noted above. "Transgender people" wanted to move the group in their direction, while the "Crossdressing community" did not. I should point out the stated purpose of Tri-ess is:

"An international and social and support group for Heterosexual crossdressers, their partners, the spouses of married crossdressers and their families."

-Additionally from their philosophy page (https://www.tri-ess.org/docs/whatis.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

"Tri-Ess is an educational, social and support group for heterosexual crossdressers, their partners, the spouses of married crossdressers and their families. We believe that we are blessed with an additional facet to our personalities. If we accept our crossgendered side, and explore it, we will find a broadening of the entire personality, which can be very fulfilling. We dress in emulation, rather than in mockery, of femininity. The Tri-Ess philosophy can be expressed in the acronym FIBER:

F - Full personality expression in both its masculine and its feminine aspects. We do not wish to destroy our masculinity, but to soften its harsher aspects, and be all we can be.

I - Integration of masculinity and femininity to create a happier whole person.

B - Balance between masculinity and femininity.

E - Education or crossdressers and their families toward self-acceptance; education of society toward accepting crossdressing people.

R - Relationship-building in the context of crossdressing."

I also recommend a look at their, "What is Crossdressing page" ( https://www.tri-ess.org/docs/cd01.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )

Although I am not certain of their incorporation date, the first listing on the wayback machine was Jan of 1998.

I think Eileen makes an excellent point about the differing experiences and desires of a crossdresser and a transgender person. As noted, the biggest one seems to be the idea, that as we start to emerge with regards to families, we DO NOT wish to change sex. That is often an IMPORTANT distinction to wives. We need to be around others who understand the idea of crossdressing as opposed to transgender.

I have no desire to be a woman. Sure I fantasize about having breasts as I don a bra, and really nice legs when shaving. BUT I am content with the basic equipment package I was born with. I have been blessed in that none of my former wives or girlfriends have ever had a serious problem after being open with them from the beginning, Yet I still see constantly crossdressers recounting their lives and problems with family and occasionally friends.

While Diane makes some very good points as well, her point about being "all inclusive" must be considered with caution. I watched the OKC Tri-ess group being destroyed by those very "cliques" Even with the stated purpose of Tri-ess. miss intentioned TG individuals allowed a good crossdressing support group to become torn and destroyed, becasue of their idea to remake the Sigma Beta chapter into a TG group.

I know how my crossdressing came into being during early adolescence. It started as a stupid thrill and I discovered it had a significant sexual draw, which was reinforced over and over in the course of adolescents. During my mid 20's I discovered it had changed. Underdressing gave me a very relaxed feeling in a non sexual way. That has been my primary motivation to underdress for 30+ years.

While I am not knowledgeable about those who started crossdressing at age 3-5 or 7. Perhaps it is a different mechanism. BUT, I can see how someone who started like me with constant sexual reinforcement could easily step beyond and convince themselves they are "born in the wrong body. Couple that with today's permissive and overly encouraging society and voila, one has to ask, how many crossdressers are convinced they are transexual and want sexual reassignment?

A recent interesting article "Pushing Kids Into Transgenderism Is Medical Malpractice" may start the reversal of the tendency.

http://thefederalist.com/2016/09/21/pus ... lpractice/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The author makes some very good points, and asks questions the public and our greater community should have been asking from the start. Should we be suppressing natural development in young children who are emotionally undeveloped and pushing them towards transgender status. Please read the article yourself. But THIS discussion needs to remained focused on this topic please.

Stepping back a bit, I don't want to get into a discussion with a transgender person who insists I am really TG as well. I respect their decision as an adult to make up their own mind, Please respect mine.

To Anthony, I understand your comment about inclusion, however, inclusion will work as well as the majority parties in government. For example, would you or I really belong at a support group for parents of murdered children? A female to male group, who don't trust men? how about pro abortion at an anti abortion rally? My point is none of these. . but that inclusion does not always work in the real world. As much as we wish, we cannot account for the motives of others, especially if they are hidden. As I am repeating, I saw the Sigma Beta chapter of Tri-ess destroyed by "inclusion." Crossdressers included TG people and the group was destroyed. The few dedicated members, were soon dissuadeed from attending by the infighting and the group lost cohesion as there were two competing interests and fell apart.

Diane mentions labels, but we must remember those labels have meaning. Her point about support groups is valid on one point. However, a crossdressing support group is not all inclusive. Perhaps we should start one for "bigotry, stereotyping, ignorance, and rejection." with regards to sexuality instead of trying to put anyone with any degree of gender dysphoria into a crossdressers support group.

I don't wish to be in any group where TG people are going to insist I am really TG, talking about hormone levels, breast implants, and who the best reassignment surgeons in the area. They hold no interest or relevance to crossdressing. In the same was as my need to reassure my family I DON'T want to change my "sex" has no relevance to those that do.

I hold nothing against anyone's sexuality, however as a point, men who insist they are mtf transgender have not been integrated into the womens locker rooms as Wellesley women's college. There is a reason for that.

Hum...Reading the Tri-ess info it sounds like a really great group to join.

Ok...I can see from your information that there probably should be some limits placed for membership prior to being admitted. While I still see TG as a huge umbrella term...because there are numerous sources defining it that way and I would consider myself to fall generally under this term I do define myself as gender fluid but mainly as a married heterosexual cross dresser with no desire for any form of surgical procedure to alter my body...I don't even have pierced ears but that would not be an issue. I would expect sexuality not to be an issue either because while like myself most cross dressers are heterosexual...many identify as Bisexual or as Gay. I can see limiting the group to MTF. I think I would like to join a local tri-ess group but there are not any within 30 miles of my gulf coast location.

I have a question Wesley...would I fit within the limits your Tri-ess group would set?

I am heterosexual. I have no desire to have any surgery to alter my body except perhaps piercing my ears maybe. But I do feel I am gender fluid meaning internally I feel my gender flows back and forth from a primarily masculine where my gender is seated most of the time to feminine for part of some days but it has never been full time. I believe I fit into what would be termed a Cross Dresser...

I can see good reasons for wanting to exclude or limit who is allowed to join this group but I also see in this day and age huge objections from the rest of our population even while there would be no objection from myself if Transsexuals wanted to form an exclusive group or if FTMs wanted to form their own group, etc. ...hell on this blog there is an exclusive area for significant others...and even for some special members of this blog...I have never worried about that since it does not prevent my feeling supported and from enjoying being on this wonderful site. I can see justification 47 groups now down to a mere 14 due to infighting due again due to cliques formed due to diversity within the group. Sad.

You would wonder why can't we just all get along...but there is always someone seeking to cordon things off or who want to push an agenda....I would have no problem being in an all inclusive group but from your evidence 47 down to 14 groups seems clear there would be more harmony found in sameness. But that sameness would also exclude perspectives and some very great ones from being shared that too is sad but there is no law stating a wide open group that is diverse and all inclusive could not also be formed...and I might try that kind of a group too. In the end would I settle on tri-ess and find it to be a much better fit for who I am ... I bet I would.

Anne,

You present some interesting observations. You asked the question:

"I have a question Wesley...would I fit within the limits your Tri-ess group would set? "

I am going to go against the traditional orthodoxy for a few minutes. Please bear with me. As you describe yourself, you crossdress. You enjoy expressing the feminine aspects of your personality. I do not believe that you have a split personality, and are a well integrated whole. Those of us who are crossdressers, have some important aspects that are at odds with transexual individuals. Most importantly, we are happy with our biological assignments at birth. We do not wish to change that. Many if not most transexuals would prefer and desire to change their assigned biology.

We as crossdressers, are contented to express our feminine side and remain male. (I am not excluding the female assigned sex, but a distinction should be made. Females have been free as long as I have been on this world, to dress as they wished in America. Male clothing is totally acceptable for assigned females to wear at any time. I suspect that unlike many of us, most adolescent women never got a sexual thrill by putting on boxers and a tee shirt. Nor do they attain a feeling of contentment and lowered anxiety when wearing male clothing.)

Granted, I am conceding that in my case, as with many others, my crossdressing started on a whim, which led to sexual attraction and reinforcement. Over time, wearing traditional women's clothing and underwear became ingrained in our personality and later, the wearing of such articles gave us a feeling of greater control. What had been forbidden was now conquered and led to feeling of ease and control, hence contentment. Something we felt forced to keep hidden was now allowed. (growing up in the 70's had my classmates known, I would have had to join witness protection.)

To answer your question, yes, you would certainly belong. I would think your feeling of being "gender fluid" indicates you enjoy openly expressing your feminine side, but do not wish to change your assignment. Hence, the term Gender fluid is simply one's feelings related to feminine and masculine on any given day. You cannot wake one day and be a genetic female, but you can dress and assume feminine appearance and feeling.

I received an email from a tri-ess official. I will let him speak for himself:

"There is a lot of confusion about the term "transgender”. Originally , Virginia Prince invented it to define people like her who were full-time crossdressers. Now , the term has been modified so that it means the whole set of crossgendered people. Worse, it is frequently used by transsexuals to hide their identities in order to enter Tri-Ess chapters. Generally speaking, people who identify as “transgender “ are not crossdressers. Most are transsexuals , and most believe in a “ gender continuum.” They tend to object to “labels”. Sometimes , this is because of confusion. Other times, it is used to hide one’s identity. They tend to prefer diversity groups, which is fine. But sometimes they take a “one size fits all” approach , and deny that crossdressers and families have any needs of their own, and try to extinguish focused groups like Tri-Ess.

Crossdressers, on the other hand, know who they are.They will tell you they are crossdressers and that they are seeking a group that offers programs for them. When wives inquire , they are almost always looking for a Tri-Ess chapter.

Because they admit everyone , diversity groups are mostly social and political. Tri-Ess groups are focused on educational and fun programs . Bonding is much more pronounced in Tri-Ess groups, because the members have so much in common."

Countering the comments and claims of transgender and trying to get the needs of crossdressers across. Crossdressers and their families desire to meet others like themselves, to know they are not alone. More than anything else they seek the sisterhood and friendship of other like-minded people.They want how-to programs, programs on subjects important in family life- relationship issues, children’s issues, religious issues legal considerations, career issues. Tri-Ess groups believe in a full-service transgender community, and they believe every transgendered person has a right to a group that meets their needs.

There is a major tendency in the transgender community to worship diversity. But diversity is as diversity does, and focus is as focus does."

I don't think Anne, that it is an issue of not getting along. I certainly respect transgender groups right to exist. But when I want to be around other people who Crossdress and are happy with their assigned sex, I don't want to hear about, transitions, who the best re-assignment physician is, hormone levels are, and certainly do not want to be pontificated to that i really don't understand what I am and what I aspire to be. Likewise for my wife or significant other, who wants to be around wives and S/O who face the same issues. Many are trying to convince wives and family they do not want to change sex. .

While the number of groups is down from 42 (my miscount, sorry) to 14, some of those groups were disbanded for the same sort of reasons. If I joined a transgender group and hijacked it to crossdressing would not be fair to the participants. I expect the same respect from others with regards to crossdressing.

Kindest Regards,
Wesley

Wesley I am very familiar with Tri-Ess and its provisos. It was the first group to recognize and celebrate the heterosexual crossdresser, which regardless of the stereotypes is the vast majority of the TG community. Yes the married CD and the transsexual have different needs, questions, and concerns. However there are many common issues such as simple acceptance as human beings and the freedom to express ourselves as we see fit. The question is are we so narrow minded we must segregate each onto its own niche? The number of support groups has grown over the years yet as you so correctly state Tri-Ess has fallen in number of chapters and members, certainly all of that cannot be blamed on the "evil" transsexual. If you and your SO feel that you only want to associate with like individuals than go ahead and start your group. Just be sure you make it clear to all potential members that this is not all inclusive but rather very narrow focused and alternative ideas will not be tolerated.

As for your link I saw and read that article a few days ago. I have no intentions in turning this into a political discussion nor disputing the argument here, however it would make an interesting discussion in other sections of the Haven. I will say that I know many transgendered individuals ranging from the heterosexual crossdresser to post operative transsexuals. While there are varying concerns and issues within that group there is a simple question the answer is virtually unanimous.

Given a choice would you have chosen to be transgendered or "normal"?

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