Crossdressers-Haven.com

first of all I'd like to say this topic just popped into my head. before I go into this I will post my first question after this on a separate thread. will discus with the moderates where the other one is even appropriate. I kind of wanted top drop the complicatesness that is the human brain here. it has to do with gender it might not start out there. it's the old debate. is a human made by their environment{a.k.a nurture] or are we hard wired to be a certain way. I think there is proof for both in a way that both are absolutely true.

proof for nurture. there is one social construct that has been proven not only to rewire the human brain but change ones preference in the opposite sex. money.. no literally winning the lottery and being rich for a year or being poor for the same year will wire your brain differently do to Neurol plasticity,

proof for natre

there no to ways about it you can'rt male someone gay or straight. not sure what studies proove that. it's just a general fact of science....

but that's just it though brains are weird and strange and they make us who we are. I just wanted to talk about brain science and gender here.

p.s. the brain isn't the on;y thing that causes such shifts. they say woman prefer coffees{mainly pumkin coffees} better than men do because they have more taste buds for bitter on their tongue. btw the next post I do will be on my first set of questions,

It is endlessly fascinating...and I agree from birth we are forcefully conditioned based on our physical sex...blue blanket vs pink... and what are little boys made from? snails, and shells and puppy dog tails...the clothing we are forced to wear, little boys aren't placed in dresses, or told it is ok to cry....no we are told to toughen up! This is psychological and I believe a woman's squeamishness of slimy filthy disgusting things...their love of delicate pretty things flowers, and nice smelling baths. Girls are even conditioned into their role as a baby making machine by being given baby dolls that take bottles and wet and need their diaper changed and need to be held and nurtured...While boys are flicking toy solders in the dirt going "bam"..."pow" playing war...or today in an online game form. Girls are given suzi homemaker ovens etc, boys bikes and sporting equipment to play catch or to kick balls around or footballs to through as they learn to form teams and work together...

There is no choice given to us, no one says...lets expose them to all of it and see which they prefer on their own.... Nope, we are forced based on our physical sex because sex=gender and our sexuality per their age old religious delusions.

Yeah, agree neural paths probably do then arrange for this. What we do know is the nature part and disposition is there...the proof is all of those butch little girls...and sissy little boys...the ones who are naturally effeminate in disposition, how they talk, think and move they are not doing this...they are wired this way! But I would argue that even if a boy is not excessively effeminate in their manner outwardly the greatest part of this is internal not external. Genetics is very powerful.

so true..lol

IMO and most of the studies I have read feel that gender like straight or gay is something we are hard wired for. As I have said many times before many tend to get confused between male versus female and masculine and feminine. Those are more characteristics based in stereotypes. You are male or female regardless of the external gender markers, it is something that comes from within, that is nature. Being feminine or masculine is more a function of environment and societal expectations, thus nurture. You can't make a female, you can make her feminine.

I still don't know what to make of myself. Have I been conditioned to the masculine stereotype and expectations and are those so well worn and entrenched that I fall into it and just believe I have a male side...while underlying all of this am I really female but a female who has not been conditioned by the expectations over a lifetime...except that at a young age I discovered I was indeed different and partially succeeded in conditioning myself covertly over that same lifetime in a limited way while living in the closet so that I am able the be who I am today?

Had it all been different...had I been welcomed and encouraged to be who I am...I wonder if at a young age I would have transitioned!?

I can tell you this...which is that this is a wild perspective and has my mind wondering isn't that interesting? Yet it is a "Gordian mental knot" the teasing out of which is probably so complex as to be hopeless so I just have to take who I am as who I am.

Nature...female? Nurture...male?

Anne it is not about what you have been conditioned to be. It is about unlearning and relearning and as they say you are never to old to learn. I go back to another thread somewhere where someone said the question should not be why but rather why not?

I'm pretty sure I'm both male and female. I also think the core of character probably dates from birth. On the other hand, my female side has a distinct sensibility related to my mother - though it's not quite her for several reasons. I don't believe that comes about genetically.

First off Hi Anthony!

IMO the fact you have both male and female in you is genetics and yes has been there since birth regardless of when it manifested itself. The fact you see your mother in that female side definitely environment.

This is the age-old questions that adoptees ask themselves!

I believe our personalities are primarily Nature. Of course there is a Nuture component to it as well but Nature wins out in my mind. I am much more like my birth family than the family that adopted me. As far as my crossdressing desires go, that is all nature. The confusion and conflicts are all nuture though.

Looking at my life, my mind and feelings of the heart. I believe our proclivity to crossdressing and for some who are transgender is that the building blocks of such is nature. Our minds were wired in such a way that we have a feminine side that is strong for a genetic male who in my case crossdresses and as life and times moved on developed my crossdressing skills and desires to be able to move from oh just a guy who may wear some female clothing under his guy's clothes which I do as a stress reliever to at times wanting and feeling a desire to dress fully in my feminine persona as Lacey, with clothes, shoes, hair and makeup.

Just as gay people were essentially wired to be attracted to the other gender, males towards males and females toward females. I feel in various forms of gender expression we are wired for such, transvestites otherwise known as crossdressers are fulfilling a personal desire which again has genetic connotations to dress partially or even fully in the gender they feel. A male may put on some feminine clothing or toy with make up and/or a more feminine/androgynous hairstyle, but live life knowing he is a genetic male and may navigate through life mostly as such. Transvestism is a driver of certain aspects of his life but unlike being a transgender who identifies as either male or female a genetic male who is not wanting or living as a transgender and as living the other sex is merely a transvestite. THAT IS OK! Too many people today especially young are led or forced into being transgender. There are many activists who are bad actors IMO who have polluted this ideal and do damage to people and society.

Less than 1% of society is typically true transgendered persons. Less than 5% of the male society have crossdressing traits. Females have it easier to crossdess as society does not see them as doing so typically. Masculine looking or dressing women are seen more as androgynous or tomboys. Boys who dress more feminine at best are seen as androgynous and at worse seen as sissies. I am a crossdresser as I have felt the urge in some form, either partially or as I became an adult and could make my own decisions even dressing fully to express my feminine side since I can remember, but I am not thinking and looking to live fully as a trans woman. AND THAT'S OK! If my wiring had me experience true gender dysphoria then I'd likely make the choice once I became mature enough and at the age of majority to then become a trans women. But my hard wiring has me be ok as a genetic male, but I have a strong feminine proclivity and enjoy the feeling of dressing in female clothing up to and even looking fully enfemme.

Too many socalled mostly self-avowed experts are messing with social activism and attacking the natural state of human life. One is born male or female. One may realize as life passes a gender dysphoria. You are then transgender or also known as transsexual, THAT IS OK! Accept it and learn to embrace it. Be you MTF or FTM. Other folks are like me born a male and am a male but I have the hard wiring that has me feeling to express a feminine side mostly through articles of clothing but also for many crossdressers like me may include makeup, shoes, hair style etc. I am a transvestite or also known as a crossdresser AND THAT IS OK TOO! A long as it is mine and your personal wish and desire to fulfill living ones own life as such.

IT IS NOT COMPLICATED AND SOCIAL ACTIVISTS ACT AGAINST US BE ONE A MERE CDER OR A TRUE TRANSGENDER! Stop falling prey for such social manipulation and nonsense. It's not rocket science, it's not new, it needs not be all this adnauseum social construct stuff. JUST LIVE YOUR LIFE TRANSGENDER OR A CDER!

I grew through my adolescence with few resources to help me see why I am a cder. Life and adulthood with early internet resources led me to better accept that it was ok. But all this social construct fluff and jargon with its rank activism is ticking me off. I do not subscribe to most/any of it. If you are transgender, find your way and live it. YOU DO NOT NEED MY OR ANY OF SOCIETY'S AFFIRMATION! If you are a guy who puts on panties, pantyhose or stockings a skirt or dress and/or heels and makeup to feel good and express even to just yourself a feminine side or trait then JUST DO IT! YOU DO NOT NEED MY OR ANY OF SOCIETY'S AFFIRMATION!

As to nurture, it influences our nature. It could be one's mother pro or con towards especially early cding. It could be one's father tough or weak towards one's cding especially early cding. It could also be numerous other things and persons in life and society and such that shaped/shapes our nature as cders or those who are transgendered to being who we are.

GAWD IT NEEDS NOT BE SO DAMN HARD! Sorry for my angst but I just bottle it up at times and I hate where all this looks to be going socially, politically and its B.S. activism.

PEACE OUT!

Hi Diana

Yup, I've just done that standard thing (for girls) of "OMG, I'm turning into my mother!" Only more so (maybe).

Lacey the first part of your post was in essence correct in the desire to crossdress is a genetic characteristic however somewhere you seemed to want to go off the rails here. At one time at least here in the US many states and municipalities had laws making the wearing the wearing of clothes for the opposite gender illegal. According to one source Google lead me to stated the city of St. Louis continued to enforce that law as late 1986. While I was unable to find any current laws in effect or at least enforced I would be surprised if there weren't a few still out there whether enforced or not.

I resent your inference of should I or any other woman dare wear slacks in public they are crossdressing. First off if I or many women happen to opt for slacks we are not going for an androgynous or tom boy look. Perhaps where you live the calendar is different than here in the US but the one on my wall reads 2018 not 1958. You have made it quite clear in other posts your ideas of how women should dress and all I can say is that less of 1% of the population you believe to be truly TG is a vast majority next to the men who hold and would dare vocalize beliefs such as that in the presence of women. Try living 24/7 day in and day out for say a few years in your dresses. pantyhose and heels then come to talk to me about it. I am talking cold blustery winter blizzards, muddy springs, hot humid summers here. I have a feeling your opinions would temper just a touch.

I will say on a personal level that I find it offense that you attempted to turn this into a right versus left discussion. Your comments about social activism is a bit confusing to be kind. This is not political issue but rather a human rights issue, its about the right of all to live as they want. It is about the right of a group no matter how small the minority having the same rights as everyone else. The US Constitution starts with a simple phrase "We the People" not we the 95% or 99% or any number! I am not a Constitutional scholar nor an attorney however to me "We the People" means everyone.

You talk about the so called social activists and social manipulation as though the enemy of the state and the LGBT community. First off they are not! If anything they are our heroes and those out there fighting for the rights to be able to crossdress be it you or anyone else. As for social manipulation I am not exactly sure what you mean however if everyone were accepted as they are regardless of society's desire to compartmentalize against those they do not understand or view as different there would be no need for manipulation, social or otherwise. If anything your anger should be directed at those who whether they preach in a religious setting or vocalize in front of a campaign style rally the evils of this group or that group that do not fit their 1950's stereotype of life. Those are the enemy!

As for your comment of "YOU DO NOT NEED MY OR ANY OF SOCIETY'S AFFIRMATION!" you are correct however that assumes a lot. I do not know if you go out dressed femme or only do it in the confines of your 4 walls, not germane here. There are girls who desire to and many who do for whatever reason carry this "hobby" beyond the closet into the sunlight. This is not about affirmation but rather not being looked as a pariah or being told by a small shop that "we don't sell to your kind" or fearing being ostracized by friends and family because "you are one of those." You cannot tell people to accept anyone by legislation, litigation or regulation however regardless of feelings you are entitled to the same respect and courtesies as anyone else and should demand it!.

I have said this many times in a variety of posts all the LGBT community seeks is to be equals. This is about social justice not activism or manipulation. It is about originally asking and now demanding those same the rights that 95% you talk about has and holds dear. If asking to be treated the same makes one a social activist and manipulator then I for one will proudly accept those titles.

Anthony I wish I could tell you how many times I have said something then think "OMG! I sound like my mother!"

At least in my case I am truly not my mother until I start telling people you shouldn't run with scissors in your hand.

It is strange to think what the world took as strange compared by todays standards. Like in the early 20th century being gay was concidered a illness that need treatment. Why is it as humans we consider unormal behavior to be mental illness. What is normal but a fluctuating state of consistency ether way. Take it from someone with an actual mental illness. Being a pansexual who wants to be a full on girl is the sanist part of me.