Crossdressers-Haven.com

I've been thinking about this topic since one of the SO's posted a discussion of transgender clothing at work.

The comment was made that if gender lines are crossed it is important to remain professionally attired. Which made me think. From my perspective given a choice of being accepted wearing a professional appearing dress and stockings or being considered professionally attired while wearing a nice flannel shirt and clean jeans, it's a total no brainer. I absolutely hate ties and dislike clothing that restricts movement generally. Back before I was self employed when I was in the corporate world I was forever pushing the limits of neat clean casual corporate attire.

It seems to me that if we push for it to be okay to dress in gender variant ways we are missing the boat. I'd like to do away with the whole idea of people being so absolutely judged by their clothing.

I remember reading a feminist comment on the burqua. They said that high heels and miniskirts were oppresive also. I am not going to compare the US to the Taliban because I don't think they are comparable at all. But consider, under the Taliban, if a woman wore makeup acid would be thrown in her face. Nail polish meant that her fingernails could be extracted.

We don't do anything like that here. But the wrong clothing will keep you unemployed and eventually on welfare. Nudity on the beach can mean an arrest and repeated offenses could probably mean losing your kids as an unfit parent. The wrong dress in the wrong place gets a woman called a whore and a guy a bunch of names with similar oprobrium. It's just not legal to throw acid in their faces.

The point is that all societies have very severe rules about attire. And I have to agree that I do to. After all I get completely fed up with the way a lot of kids dress what with the baggy pants, offensive slogans, and slut wear.

I'm told that French women, considered by many to be the height of sophistiacation, don't shave or use deodorant. Who made us think the odor God gave us is a disagreeable one anyway?


I guess my question is are we just trying to change one rule here or maybe look a little deeper about the whole idea of rules about clothing and question who gets to make them and how powerful should they be? Whatever happened to the idea that we don't judge someone by their clothing, be they gender variant or just plain smelly and dirty? Because lets face it, in a dress I look a lot more intirnsically disturbing and provide a lot more unsettling cues about how to interact with me than I do in dirty smelly guy clothes.

Absaroka

Well the standards of today tell us and make us conform to these ideals. It's the idea of past generations and such that give us this idea. Moreover, it's a circle of dress codes remaining fairly unchanged until a more modern business comes alot such as Best Buy. Where you can grow a go-tee and have long hair. And where virtually whatever pants you choose so long as they're neat.

But in the end, it's people influencing other peole, such as how racism gets passed along to parent's kids. It's up to the new generation to become more tollerant and accepting than the last. As we have seen with homosexuality and infantilism spikes. But that is just an example of how it works.

So in reality, we should move to more convention and comfortable attire better suited for the business world. I've never understood why someone would want to wear something at work that constricted their movement.

Dress codes are something which each culture passes down to each generation, albeit each generation may add it’s personal touch to those codes (notwithstanding that there are those cultures which police their heritage dress codes, and any divergence is met with a punishment), but the fact remains that in the main, any substantial movement away from what I’ll loosely term as ‘gender dress etiquette’ in the workplace, can be met with scorn.

The sad thing is that the clothes a person wears to go to work doesn’t effect the quality of their work. In my case, I worked most of my time as a chiropractor in a white, loose fitting, short sleeved smock type of garment and a pair of slacks, and this gave me comfort and freedom of movement throughout the day, and also was a pleasing comfortable look which people identified with my profession. As I got further into my transition and my physical appearance started to show some changes, my emotional needs also were changing and they spread to the way I desired to dress each day. I started off by making small changes in that the style of top I wore changed to a more feminine design, and over time I added little touches such as a frill or a tuck here and there, and eventually changed the colour from white to pastel colours, pale pinks being my preference. At all times I was dressed neatly and cleanly, and really the only changes I’d made were colour and a small bow or a frill added here and there, plus the cut of the garment was more along accepted feminine lines, but even so it was all enough to cause concern.

To cut a long story short, eventually changes to my daily dress routine and my general appearance caused people some discomfort to the point it started to affect my weekly financial returns, which caused concern to my partners, which eventually resulted in the dissolving of the partnership and me seeking other ways to make a living. People do get very sensitive about someone like me touching them, that’s’just a fact of life, no matter how qualified or expert we are at what we do.

As I said previously, the really sad thing is that our gender preference, plus our sexuality, our mode of dress, our colour, creed, culture, race, religion etc has no bearing on our integrity or the quality of our work. In the case of the TG community, for those people who live in their preferred gender role, there is an approximate unemployment rate of around 60%, and that is fairly uniform right across Western Cultured countries, even taking in countries which have strict anti-discrimination laws in place, such as us here in Australia. Sometimes silence can be more disturbing in the workplace than verbal attack.

Being gainfully employed is a critical factor in who we are. It gives self esteem and self confidence, it provides us with purpose and meaning, and it defines our standard of living equal to our abilities, and our choices in life which are really dependant on that. It gives us the opportunity to plan and make a future and not just wander in a day to day existence. It gives us respect, hope and dignity. We’ve often seen those people who make a personal choice of how they look on a daily basis sink into that abyss which frequently contributes to the high mortality rate in the TG community, and so often it all starts off with the prejudicial viewpoint of others in the workplace who demand that a strict dress code be adhered to, through to dismissal if that dress code is ignored. Yes, there are standards which should be met, but surely, equal opportunity should mean exactly what it says no matter how a person chooses to dress, or their colour, creed, religion, culture etc. But unfortunately it’s that sort of world we all live in.

Kind Regards,

Sally.

A couple of comments.

Dallas there is historically only one reason to wear clothing that restricts movement. It is to show that the wearer does not do physical labor and thus is a member of the upper class. This has become so ingrained in our (and many other) societies that a secondary issue of emotional comfort has set in. Witness the number of men who do not feel comfortable without a tie. Their comfort comes from hewing to percieved norms. The norms have their roots in class struggle.

As for a couple of Sallys comments. SHe was always neatly dressed. and yes there have to be standards but they should be more tolerant of transgender people.

My question is first who decides what constitutes neatly dressed? How did we arrive at this consensus?

And secondly I guess we will always need to have standards. I don't care if my chiropractor has a tie but I don't want him to have B.O. But why? Why have I bought into this idea? Just how many other standards aside from those having to do with gender ought be re examined.

In Lincolns time a beard was considered respectable. In Washingtons time long hair on men was respectable. A hundred years ago or so bras hadn't been invented but now a woman isn't considered dressed without one. My mother did not bathe in the winter-no indoor running water in the North Woods in the 30's. THis woudl be viewed with horror now. How have these things come to have such force of law so quickly.

Absaroka

This a very interesting thread.
I agree that both the burqua and mini skirts as well as the necktie are oppressive. I consider myself very lucky that I don't feel compelled to wear any of those things. I do know the power of clothing though. Especially after being involved with a crossdresser.

My own style of work dress has changed drastically over the past 15 years or so, mostly because of my climb up the ladder at work. There is a very definite difference in the level of respect you command when in a suit as opposed to being dressed down. I have felt it clearly even though I know my brain is the same and I am just as articulate when dressed down, I wear that suit to make sure I'm heard. I've had people I work with (those who have been in the same position for a long time and think they've been denied advancement) make comments that I think I'm so important and that I'm a big boss because I dress like an executive. I'm not a boss, don't really want to be a boss but I do want to work closely with the bosses and I want to contribute to the organization in a meaningful way and if a way to be allowed that opportunity is to dress professionally, I'll do it. Its not fair but since I'm aware of the rules, I'm playing along. I can wear my sweats on my offtime, no problem.

For clothing and gender. I'm not sure. We have several trans people in our organization. I've worked with the trans community a little around employment issues. I'm involved with a CD and its still a little confusing. Mixed gender queues are difficult to process.

As far as the issue of body odor... There are some body odors that are ok for me but really speaking generally, here in America, we equate BO with being unclean or ill. And unclean (and/or ill) equals bad. Everything is so sterilized and perfumed. Smells can be emotional too. There are smells that make me think about colors or places or generalized emotions. mixed smell queues are confusing too. A doctor who has BO? I dunno about that, would make me think twice about it too .

btw, just to try to make sure I don't fall into the same trap of trusting the down-dressed person less, myself, I keep an old fortune cookie message tacked to the wall next to my computer monitor at work that reads...
"Sometimes the wisest person is dressed in the rudest clothing."

Terri(SO) wrote:For clothing and gender. I'm not sure. We have several trans people in our organization. I've worked with the trans community a little around employment issues. I'm involved with a CD and its still a little confusing. Mixed gender queues are difficult to process.

Whilst I am still working in boy mode I do wear a substancial amount of jewellry to work. I also have long acrylic nails which are painted in darker colours, normally purple or black, and I also wear eyeliner and mascara to work on a daily basis. I have done so since starting this job just 2 months ago. My appearance is generally overlooked by those that I work with simply because I am good at what I do.

I am not too sure that mixed gender queues make a great deal of difference to people who are recieving value from your employment.True there are those that do not see my work or do not have the need for what I produce that may think I am a total wierdo, but with a friendly attitude and a willingness to listen to what they have to say I have won a lot of the more conservative characters over.

I must say though that I won this job with both my immediate boss and the executive director of the department, both of whom sat on the interview panel, in full knowledge that not only was I transgendered but also that I intended to transition on the job in the new year. Still I am not taking any chances and for the first time ever have joined a union and very closely examined the EEO policy as well as consulting with counsellors and my own shrink on "correct procedure" for transitioning on the job.

I am quite sure in my former role as a sales manager for a large wholesaler of electronics which involved a lot of direct contact with electrical contractors and the general public that my eccentricities would have been so eaily over looked.

I suppoe the moral of the story is that dress codes apply in direct relation to your exposure to the public and that publics expectations of you. Be good at what you do and be out of sight of the customers and all manner of out of the norm behaviour is tolerated.

Absaroka wrote:Dallas there is historically only one reason to wear clothing that restricts movement. It is to show that the wearer does not do physical labor and thus is a member of the upper class. This has become so ingrained in our (and many other) societies that a secondary issue of emotional comfort has set in. Witness the number of men who do not feel comfortable without a tie. Their comfort comes from hewing to percieved norms. The norms have their roots in class struggle.

Anne Hollander's excellent "Sex and Suits," which looks at men's and women's clothing since the Middle Ages, makes the following observation:

Anne Hollander wrote:Contrary to folklore, most changes are not rebellions against unbearable modes, but against all too bearable ones. Tedium in fashion is much more unbearable than any sort of physical discomfort, which is always an ambiguous matter anyway; a certain amount of trouble and effort is a defining element of dress, as it is of all art.

In the past, stiffness, heaviness, constriction, problematic fastenings, precarious adornments and all similar difficulties in clothing would constantly remind privileged men and women that they were highly civilized beings, separated by exacting training, elaborate education and complex responsibilities from simple peons with simple pleasures, burdens and duties. Change in very elegant fashion usually meant exchanging one physical discomfort for another; the comfort of such clothes was in the head, a matter of honor and discipline and the proper maintenance of social degree.

Anyway, clothing is one more form of communication and you can't not communicate. And making snap judgements historically has had a lot of survival value -- i.e. is someone/something friend or foe -- which is why overcoming stereotyping can be tough. And in the case of crossdressing -- it's not necessarily that clothes that are disturbing to people as much as the message they're conveying, i.e. that the wearer is breaking conventions about gender.

Absaroka wrote:

Whatever happened to the idea that we don't judge someone by their clothing, be they gender variant or just plain smelly and dirty

I'd have to say this idea is more an ideal, and not a practice. Marlena's mention about snap judgement of 'friend or foe' is more the reality, followed by the second judgement, "Is this person suitable for mating?" These two questions are hard-wired in us, it seems to me. After the initial gut-level judgement, then we may choose to intellectually accept someone. But our initial evaluation is hard to shake.

Because lets face it, in a dress I look a lot more intirnsically disturbing and provide a lot more unsettling cues about how to interact with me than I do in dirty smelly guy clothes.

That dress is a female-cue piece of clothing, and if YOU wear it, it interferes with that second snap judgement. Some guy's DNA is telling him that you LOOK suitable as a mate, and his brain is screaming at him that you're totally unacceptable. It creates a little internal war that can upset men who encounter us. The best way around this is just to laugh at the survival mechanism kicking in, but Mother Nature does not like us laughing at survival techniques.

But--the original question is more about who made clothing such a hot-button item. I'd have to say that part of it has to do with keeping the genders as clearly marked as possible, so that mistakes in mating judgement don't happen.

Candy wrote:

If you are in the artistic world...the movie world, the computer world...or the fashion world...did i say art? You can wear what you like. And you will fit in. And show your artistic abilities.

A nice essay, and I chose to focus on this part of it. This is one big reason why my performing as a woman does not do much at all to advance our cause. People expect performers to be outside of the norm, and reward them for it, to varying degrees.

One night out shopping at Safeway as just another gal does a lot more to wake up people than countless nights performing on stages.

[

I guess basically what we are saying is not that we should get rid of the rules but just that we should change a couple of them that we personally don't like. Which is probably just as well.

I liked what Anita said about not judging folks by their clothes as an ideal rather than a practice. Every now and then however when I hear someone say that you shouldn't be judged by your appearance I have an urge to tell them to stop lying.

Absaroka

Hi all,

Anita wrote: Some guy's DNA is telling him that you LOOK suitable as a mate, and his brain is screaming at him that you're totally unacceptable. It creates a little internal war that can upset men who encounter us.

Of course, this applies to GG's as well. Our SO's (or potential SO's) see the man that we are while also seeing the female gender cues and this, too, "creates a little internal war" that can upset them.

For all the reasons (and more) mentioned in the posts above, society likes men to look like men and women to look like women. It simplifies things. Moreover, people will find a myriad ways to justify this state of affairs, ranging from biblical proscriptions to the dictates of evolutionary psychology. The problem with this, of course, is that such justifications are applied to social ideals (where conformity is the order of the day), not to individuals (where we find a quasi-infinite variety of individuals struggling to become the persons they are).

There will always be an element of shock or, at the very least, tremendous discomfort, in clashing gender cues within a single individual. But it goes even further than gender, of course. That element of shock would be there even in a "suitably" dressed man (pun intended) who chose to slum it with the homeless or in a raggedy "bag lady" who crashed a corporate meeting in a boardroom. This, regardless of who these two individuals really are.

Our dress codes, truly, are strictly-enforced rules governing the wearing of uniforms in social situations (and a social situation is any situation where there are at least two people involved). As crossdressers, we're often faced with thinly-veiled pleas (from our friends, families, SO's, etc.) to adhere to gender-appropriate dress codes; conversely, as human beings, as individuals (rather than merely as crossdressers), we often plead for a social leniency in dress codes that would allow us to blossom as sane and productive members of our communities.

Terri mentioned that, because she's aware of her workplace dress codes, she plays by them even though she may think them unfair or stifling. She agrees to wear the "uniform" lest other people refuse to work with her. While this is all well and good, it may be easier to play (or work) by those rules when you only have to do so from 9:00 to 5:00 on the weekdays. When there's a strong sense--sometimes, a screaming voice--in your soul that you always have to wear a--in our case, gender-inappropriate--uniform, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year, you tire and you grow sick and disenchanted with the world around you, especially given that it would be but a little thing for "society" to allow its members to express themselves in accordance with who they are and not with who they should be.

Well, enough of this. I gotta get to work. This morning, it's jeans and a handsome shirt. With rolled up sleeves. And sensible walking boots. No heels.

Love,
CJ