Crossdressers-Haven.com

I was sitting in one of my local coffee shops today when I suddenly started looking at what the women passing by were wearing. The coffee shop is in the middle of a shopping centre which also is part of a local transport hub and there's lots of people milling about. The general thing about the shopping centre is it's fine if you've got money (doesn't have to be that much, but some to spend in the shops, maybe). And although the area is kind of mixed (both relatively well-off people and relatively poor people), the vibe in the shopping centre is more upmarket (even if the people aren't).

There is a sense of being on display there. Partly that may be a London thing - I remember one conversation with a woman from East Europe who made a point of saying that women here always seemed to be trying to achieve some degree of "special occasion" look. Like everyone had to walk about like that. And that's certainly how it seemed to me with regard to the young women I saw - just about everyone I saw had made a serious effort to spark up their dress, so that attention would be drawn to them.

But, at the same time, it was generally done in somewhat stylish and understated way. It seemed that a lot of thought and effort gone into the detailing and the matching of items. Remarkably, about 80% of women I saw wore trousers of some sort (maybe 50% blue jeans, the rest slacks etc.). They didn't look genderless or masculine to my eyes though. I mean a woman's body in jeans looks like a woman's body, for a start - and it's quite obviously different (90% of the time) from a man's.

The other thing was that a very considerable number of the women wore tops and/or accessories that had a high "girly" quotient. These also carried a high percentage of the "display" element. I guess the mix - "sensible" bottom half and (to a degree) "display"/"feminine" top half matched what they were doing - shopping.

The older women generally had less of the "display" element. But there was generally still some there. Quite a high proportion of the people in that shopping centre had relatively elaborate makeup. Again this was less so for the older women, though this being early Saturday evening...

There were a few people in dresses. Not many, but they didn't stick out or anything. No-one was absolutely dressed up to the nines, but a few were only a little bit short. In terms of blending in (say for me), the problem would be to avoid really heavy makeup with eyecatching effects (which I go for in order to induce a feminine appearance). Some of the younger women had something close to that - but it was generally done with a lightness of touch and a stylishness. I don't think I saw any older women with those sorts of eyecatching effects - though you do see people with the sort of all-over foundation I need to wear in oder to feminize my face. I think there might have been one or two people in skirts - mini-skirts on youngish girls.

After that I went down to the river, where part of the celebration for the Queen's Jubilee has been going on. There the "display" element in the women was much reduced. There were a lot of people in "sensible". If you're tramping about in the dust on the river towpath, this makes perfect sense. I mean who wants to ruin a classy top when everyone's looking at the boats on the river anyway? The sort of look seemed to be basically "dressed down" (which often seems to be recommended for CDs who want to "pass"). But, as I got to the end of the towpath - and it stopped being dirt track and turned into metalled road - there were quite a few women in dresses and skirts and relatively dressy makeup.

And, it being Saturday night, this theme became more prominent when I got off the towpath and came home. I think I saw a couple of older women wearing the level of makeup I regularly wear when I dress up. But this was "special occasion" makeup.

Anthony? Just looking today? I never stop. I'm always critiquing and, in many cases, wishing...

Location does make a difference of how people dress. That's obvious in what stores are in the area. I think the "great equalizers" are places like grocery stores. I have been to San Fransisco a few times in my life time and I watched the lovely gowns coming out of the upscale playhouse to walk over to the hot dog stand. I have been to the Strathmore just outside of DC to watch a wonderful violin and saw people all spiffed up to some dressed for the weekend fun. I didn't see a single smirk or disgruntled look with all this variation in one event. had the event been downtown, I'm not sure if the weekend attire would have been ok. It would have been the same event -- just a different location.

Anywaaaayyyyy... I'm so glad to be a woman so I have the options.

Davita wrote:Anthony? Just looking today? I never stop. I'm always critiquing and, in many cases, wishing...

Aaaaarrrmgh...It was more or less "this time it's for real". Like I'm really seriously going to try to work out how women are looking and dressing so I can copy them. I think I was doing that before but without any sort of intent along the lines of " now I'm going to be a woman".

I mean I'm an observer so I'm always looking at stuff all the time about everything. Like I'm a machine for just soaking up stuff. But when I turn it on and suddenly I go into that thing where my mind is organising and clarifying while I'm looking then I've got really committed.

I have been doing the same as Anthony, and it has changed how I dress on occasion. I have found that I am much more likely to pass in most "casual" situations wearing jeans and a nice top than a fancy dress, in the recent very hot weather I wore a rather short sun dress with bare legs, that was fine because that was what all the women were wearing. If I want to pass I may wear gender inappropriate clothing but I need to wear age and occasion appropriate clothing, and I will only know what that is by watching.

I have no objection to watching women, I actually quite enjoy it, but it is now a much more informed learning activity.

Ah, British summer weather. Any thoughts of the hot weather Paula was talking about have been blotted out in the last few days. Particularly on Sunday (2nd). Then it was 13C, wet and miserable, just in time for the Queen's Jubilee (and of course in line with traditional weather on British holiday weekends).

We're pretty much in that mode at the moment. Today was less wet, cold and miserable, but only somewhat. Not really conducive to checking out the finer points of women's style. But, when the clouds disappeared, I decided I might look to see what women were doing with their scarves.

My interest is that I have an adam's apple that I want to cover up, but am aware that my way of doing it probably just says "look, here's something I want to cover up" - which is not much use. In general, it seemed to me that the way scarves were draped and knotted was in balance to the rest of the woman's body. It didn't seem to have much to do with head - though perhaps that would have looked different if it was still raining and women were wearing hoods or other head-gear.

There was this one young woman who used the scarf as a kind of multiple accent thing, both as a balance for the body below, but also offsetting her hair in colour and style. There also seemed to be something going on between the way she knotted the scarf and the look of her face. The rest of her clothes were pretty simple - though the face was quite striking. I think you'd have to say the scarf was the central point of the whole ensemble.

Anthony,

A scarf is another way to cover up too much cleavage and in that way you can manage to do a bit of adam's apple covering...

Yeah, I can sort of see that, Davita. But, on the women I saw it, it may not just have been the boobs, but the body in general. Kind of "woman with dumpy body wears long, knotted gray scarf to suck the eye upward". So, therefore, I need heavier hips and bigger boobs to justify wearing a scarf...

Turtle neck sweaters and knit blouses were around, and they came and went in the 60s in what seemed like a flash. They'd be great for covering, but I don't see any women wearing them, do you?

I think turtlenecks and polo necks may the same thing. At least I see lots of polos in charity shops and chain stores here, and assume that a fair number of women must be wearing them from that. I do sometimes see women in them, like on the TV as well as out, so I've based my look on them. But they give a somewhat formal effect, so I'm trying to vary that...

Well I will tell you what, there is no way Carol Ann wants to be seen in public dressing like some of the women around. One! wearing shorts, flip flops, and a tank top is not my up bringing.

I grew up in the 50"s and my loveing mother told me if I want to dress like a girl you will be a proper young lady AT ALL TIMES. To this day I have never forgot those words and I try my best to be as fem as I can and look like a proper women.

Sorry if I stepped on someone's toes and sorry all you GG out there but women no longer try to look like a women.
Just my $.02 worth on the subject

Carol Ann wrote:Well I will tell you what, there is no way Carol Ann wants to be seen in public dressing like some of the women around. One! wearing shorts, flip flops, and a tank top is not my up bringing.

Well, this is like an attack on the "woman as slob" thing I see so much. But a girl in shorts can be pretty darn nice, and if you're going down the the beach (or similar) why not wear flip flops? Tank tops can be neat so long as they're stylishly worn.

I grew up in the 50"s and my loveing mother told me if I want to dress like a girl you will be a proper young lady AT ALL TIMES. To this day I have never forgot those words and I try my best to be as fem as I can and look like a proper women.

This is probably getting at the tendency for some CDs (and indeed drag queens) to end up presenting an image that is not a million miles from that of whore. But it's also what a lot of mothers would drum into their daughters anyway.

Sorry if I stepped on someone's toes and sorry all you GG out there but women no longer try to look like a women.
Just my $.02 worth on the subject

I think this is different again. It's very hard to make most women look like men (easier I think to get men to look like women - hard as that is for so many of us here). Generally the best you can do is some kind of androgynous look (I'm talking now about women CDs rather than FTM transsexuals when the whole range of surgical procedures, hormones etc come into play). I don't see many women like that, so actually I think that women still very, very largely look like women - whatever they're trying to do.

I know Carol Ann is saying that standards have dropped and morals have gone out of the window (and maybe I agree) and that has come out in the lowering of the standards of care women give to appearance. But I think this is all a bit broad brush.

TY Anthony for your honest reply, I do see your point of view and respeck it.

I see turtle necks and the "fake" turtle necks. I can't remember at the moment what they are called. I wear them because I like the fit that goes with them and hate turtle necks because of the feel and I don't need material rubbing off my makeup. Here's the thing with turtle necks -- they're winter wear or cold dreary day wear. As soon as the weather gets above 60; they are gone.

Back to the scarf. You don't have to knot it all up and wrap it around a bunch of times. Just get a small scarf and put it around the back of your neck and tuck it in the front of the top. I have seen women use a scarf under a jacket instead of a blouse when they wanted coverage for the day but not that evening. I'm kind of stumped on how to cover an adam's apple; I don't really have one.

Davita wrote:I see turtle necks and the "fake" turtle necks. I can't remember at the moment what they are called. I wear them because I like the fit that goes with them and hate turtle necks because of the feel and I don't need material rubbing off my makeup. Here's the thing with turtle necks -- they're winter wear or cold dreary day wear. As soon as the weather gets above 60; they are gone.

I agree with you about the makeup rubbing off, which can be a pain. I did actually see one today in the park. The woman was wearing it with one of those ski jacket type things, so that does fit with your idea of cool weather clothing (it got up to around 68 F today). There's a French woman journalist who I see on the box wearing them. She's got quite girlish features and it sort of gives a more efficient sense to her. In the drag movie "Outrageous" the heroine Liza (The hero's schizophrenic friend) often wears polos of one sort of another. There's a lot of stuff in freezing Canadian weather, so that goes to your point. But she also has fragile, very girlish features, so that fits with mine (like the fragility is offset by the polos).

Back to the scarf. You don't have to knot it all up and wrap it around a bunch of times. Just get a small scarf and put it around the back of your neck and tuck it in the front of the top. I have seen women use a scarf under a jacket instead of a blouse when they wanted coverage for the day but not that evening. I'm kind of stumped on how to cover an adam's apple; I don't really have one.

Well, I tried that and it works real well - so thanks for that, Davita (actually it was a longish scarf, but who's counting) - winding it around my neck where the Adam's apple is and then tucking the remainder into the top of a shirt cravate-style. Of course that is only after I got over draping it down the side of my boobs in order to draw attention in that direction (i.e. away from my neck). That was fun for a while...

You're pretty lucky (for these purposes anyway) not to have to worry about your Adam's apple. Mine makes me rather self-conscious when it comes to dressing up and is kinda restrictive on clothing choices.

Davita wrote:I see turtle necks and the "fake" turtle necks. I can't remember at the moment what they are called.

They are called Dickies. You might find some with zippers for less worry about makeup. Or if you're good enough, you can put in a zipper, or have a dry cleaning shop do it.