Crossdressers-Haven.com

     What are the ethics of passing as a woman?   Before I say another word, I should be clear about two things: (1) I have not done anything yet, so the key parts of this post are hypothetical, and (2) I am not certain that “passing as a woman” is anything more than a fantasy in my case. Most of the reason I raise the question, though, is that I am curious about whether persons who are likely to be critical and are at least somewhat perceptive can tell that I am not a genetic woman.

     But I am getting ahead of myself, so let me back up.   I created an America Online Web Profile in which I provided essentially accurate (but not too revealing) information about myself, but I said nothing whatsoever about sex or gender. Of course, my picture suggests a gender as does a name containing “Ann,” but I avoided any specific discussion of sex, gender, or crossing gender boundaries.

     My original purpose in creating this profile without any mention of gender or crossdressing was to cut down on the SPAM and other unwanted e-mail I too-often receive. (Various sorts of trolls, spammers, and scammers use the AOL search engine to identify screen names — and thus e-mail addresses — of persons who will later become targets of their attention.)

     When I was publishing my new “under the radar” profile, an AOL advertisement appeared telling me how quick and easy it would be to create a Love@AOL/Match.com profile, too.   As I read that advertisement, my first thought was that a computer dating system was of no interest to me, but then I wondered if others in Love@AOL/Match.com system would read me immediately, or if they would assume that I was a genetic woman and, in some cases, perhaps even reply to my profile.   This would be a strong test of how well I present myself, because those seeking a heterosexual date are going to be very careful and critical.   Although I remain curious about this, I also recognize that my actions would be an experiment with persons who were honestly looking for romance, and who were not intending to be subjects of research. What do you think? What are the ethics of passing as a woman?      

The best thing to do with suitors who think you're a GG is to decline their advances. If you let things go forward, you may quickly come to a point where the only decent thing to do is to correct their misperceptions. And that can have some decidedly unpleasant consequences.

-Celia

Celia wrote:The best thing to do with suitors who think you're a GG is to decline their advances. If you let things go forward, you may quickly come to a point where the only decent thing to do is to correct their misperceptions. And that can have some decidedly unpleasant consequences.

-Celia

     I think that is excellent advice, Celia.  I have heard of CD’s who actually have dated men without disclosing that they were genetically male. I have never done that and have no intention of doing so. As you said, that could have some very negative consequences. Besides wanting to avoid the potential for becoming a victim of retaliation, I would not do that because I have no interest in dating men.

     The scenario I had in mind was one of trying to test my own believability, seeing if the men who use an Internet dating service such as Match.com could easily “see through” a little charade by a CD — or, more precisely, a little charade by a CD with my level of “passability” (if that is a word). I would be curious as to whether I would pass under the relatively favorable circumstances of having to present only a posed photograph and answers to a set of questions. If I did get responses, I would politely decline any further contact. My only interest would be in whether (1) I was seen as a woman and received several positive inquiries, (2) I was largely ignored, but was not read as a crossdresser, or (3) I was read as a CD and informed of this in one or more replies.

     In Match.com profiles, I suspect that many people, both men and women, give a certain amount of self-serving, exaggerated, or downright false information. To what extent are such little charades ethical?  And if the more usual “little white lies” about one’s weight, age, etc., are ethically tolerable, how about a “little white lie” about one’s gender? If I were to carry out my little experiment (not leading anyone on beyond the point of their initial reply), would you think I had crossed the line on ethical behavior? Or would you consider my offense trivial?     

Jamie Ann,

You should check the membership agreement for whatever site you might try. They may have rules and regulations which address this situation.

Connie

Some personals sites have categories for people who wish to advertise themselves as TG. I don't plan to go that route myself, if for no other reason than to not expose myself to some of the less-savory persons who go for that type.

Hi Celia,

Very good point. If anyone values their life, they will let folks know they are TG'd upfront. A GM will not be too happy if you deceive him. It could get violent.

Please everyone follow Jamie Ann's advice and NEVER do that.

Great post!!

Beauty

Jamie Ann...I agree with the other posts and think this is something you should avoid in its entirety. You are extremely bright and intuitive and from what I've seen of your posts have a very good (and shall I say pretty) head on your shoulders. I've gone down that "road" before and the results were not good and thus I learned the hard way from experience. While your "experiment" may sound tempting in the laboratory, I'm afraid that even though you believe you'd end it at the exploratory stage, things sometimes have a way of getting out of hand...I'd avoid this at all costs. Lizzy

Jamie Ann, Honey if I read your post correctly, you want to "pass" by use of computer and picture. -forget it! Make yourself look pretty, get in you your car and go for a drive. When you are comfortable with that, go through a fastfood drive-thru. Then take a walk in a park where you feel comfortable, then (and this is my favorite, an afternoon movie matinee) after that, your self-confidence will soar and your on your own girl - go get 'em!
Love,
Deborah

Hi Jamie Ann--
I would say that it's not a very harmful deception, but it still is a deception. It seems sort of on the order of what I had to do when I was first in business--call my competitors and try to find out what kind of prices they were charging, without divulging that I was also a floor guy.

I could argue that that's what they do on the phone all day--answer calls from people who want some idea of price. And it wasn't like I was going to undercut them just because I knew their prices. But I did NOT like having to do this, and soon learned to how to call flooring businesses that were far enough out of my area that I could tell them, "Hey, I'm not a competitor--I just need to know what's going on out there."

So that's how I see you shaping your idea, Jamie Ann. The guys are going to be answering ads anyway, and they're going to get shot down by lots of the women anyway, so what's one more reply that never gets answered?

I can tell you right now that you'll pass, online. Your pictures are good, and your writing will draw men right in. Maybe you need to do that once or twice, but I think not being able to reply will get to you. But if you do reply, then you're almost immediately into hot water.

Expectations can be high, on the net. I'm not concerned about your safety, only dealing with online people. But I don't think you're going to be happy leaving these guys hanging. I agree with Lizzy that if you don't, though, it'll be even more of a problem. I'd leave that idea alone, JA.
A

Hi Jamie Ann,

To one who has spent most of her long life hiding behind closet doors, the idea sounds very tempting. I find I must agree with Anita, however. No matter how careful you may be, it does sound like something which could go way over your head very quickly and cause some repercussions. There are a lot of programs out there which can allow someone to trace the source of your computer and that would not be good. Stay away from it.

     Thanks to everyone who responded. Because your responses were so thoughtful, I want to acknowledge each of them with a short reply.

     Celia.—Although I was contemplating communications that would be strictly over the Internet, your advice certainly is on the mark. For CD’s (or anyone else, for that matter), it is easy to get caught up in situations. If some guy in a nightspot is flirting with someone he thinks is a GG, it probably is best for the CD to say, “Thank you for the compliment, but I’m happily married” (or whatever), and not risk becoming a statistic.

     Connie.—You make an excellent point that I had not considered. A service like Match.com probably has rules and regulations. If it became known that a person had used the service to “test their transgender passableness,” the owners might feel that their service had lost credibility and that their economic interests had been damaged. It would be a rude shock to find oneself the target of a lawsuit.

     Jaye.—I agree with you that for a TG who was interested in finding dates, they would have a better chance of finding a compatible partner if they said up-front that they were a TG, so that persons not interested in a TG could screen themselves out.  Since my purpose would be to “test my transgender passableness,” I would be defeating my purpose to admit that I was a male crossdresser. But for those who actually want to meet someone (which I do not), I think your point is persuasive.

     Beauty.—Thanks for taking a stand.  Anyone who thinks you are being overly cautious might consider visiting the Remembering Our Dead website. It is hard to know exactly how many of those murdered CD’s were killed by men who thought they had to “uphold their honor” after being misled, but certainly that was the situation in many of those tragic cases.

     Lizzy B.—Thanks for the compliment! You are right, I think, that it would be very easy to start with a limited plan, but then to follow your curiosity to the next step ... then to the next ... until thing were hopeless out of hand. That probably account for some of the statistics cited on the Remembering Our Dead website. Thank you.

     Deborah.—I like your spirit! You are right that “passing” on a website is a rather limited form of passing. Getting out to that movie matinée would be a lot more fun!

     Anita.—Your analogy with a business-person calling competitors, acting like a potential customer, so as to find out their prices, is an apt one. You said you did not feel good about engaging in these minor deceptions, even though they were not serious compared with (say) the fraud at Enron. Your point is a good one — we have to live with ourselves.

     Josey.—I have gotten e-mail SPAM offering to sell me products that supposedly would allow me to trace electronic information to its source. I know the FBI can trace information sent over the Internet, because they track down the sources of computer viruses and the like. Whether any Match.com clients would be likely to have those capabilities is anyone’s guess, but the caution you offer is well worth taking into account. Thank you!

     And thanks again to everyone!  I have decided not to pursue my “Can I pass?” experiment. It would not be worth the possible problems it might cause.

As usual, I post too late to be much help. But since some very wise individuals beat me to it, all I can do now is agree that, based on your avatar, you can definitely pass in digital pictures, and, based on your writing style and clarity, your writing can pass also. So, as already agreed, your experiment would have been pointless. The number one thing I observe here is that you thought about this experiment carefully enough to be considerate of other's feelings. That makes you the kind of person I would like to have as a friend, regardless of gender.

Hugs,

Bernice

Jamie Ann,
I agree with what Bernice, my neighbor in Kansas, told you. You are
beautiful in picture, thought and deeds.

Don't do what you propose. I don't fully understand your want for men to
see you as a woman. If you only wish to be able to pass safely to be able
to go out and enjoy mixing in with the world a bit, do as Deborah said.
That's what I have done over a 10 year period, doing much more
exploration this past two years.

(If I am not mistaken, I thought you were married.) Seeking male dates,
I don't think is ethical unless you were serious in achieving such a
relationship. The positive feed back I have been getting has only given
me more confidence to be who I am, a man in a skirt and blouse who
loves the feelings I have expressing my fem self. The better I feel
about myself the better the response from strangers.

I started by stepping out the door at night. Then I took walks near a
retirement home at 8 to 10 at night. A few people were always out taking
a walk. I didn't look out of place and met people face to face on the walk.
I never went to parks because strange activities
near or in parks draws phone calls from people overlooking the park.
My wife's mother does this all the time if some one looks out of place
to her. Then I went on to fast food drive through. Then I went in to
eat inside a couple times to gage people's reactions. Since, I have
shopped in a couple stores dressed. Monday I asked a sales woman
to help me find a matching blouse for a skirt I had picked and asked to
try them on. It was the greatest. She was kind, friendly and helpful.
I was dressed in my male clothes.

Dip your pretty toes in the cool water. I know you will love the time
as Jamie Anne. You are who you think you are.

I feel wonderful to be able to talk to you about my positive experiences.
You too have written me and helped me through my depressions, self
doubt and terrible feelings of guilt over wearing woman's clothes.
Your picture had been an inspiration to me to survive and flower.
You look so happy and confident. I wish you the best in whatever your
pursuits may be.

Hugs,
Kersten

I feel lucky to have such a great neighbor!

Hugs,

Bernice

Hi Jamie,

Well, here's my one cent's worth, and late as usual too! I see no harm in not advertising one's true gender until it comes to intimacy or events that would lead to it. For instance, when I'm having a good day and some guy at the bar buys me a drink unnanounced, I accept it BUT when he comes over to my table I make sure he understands that I am a pre-op! If he offers to buy me one face-to-face I decline. If he pushes it(which usually means he's desperate, nearly blind, or nearly drunk if he's hitting on soneone with MY looks)then I expalin things and tell him I am NOT looking to 'do it' with him or anyone else, I'm just being myself, and he can feel free to stay or leave on those terms. On a few occasions this has brought me some delightful times from real gentlemen who treated me like a real lady. And at other times it has brought a lot of embarassment to them, but they left soon enough so that nobody else noticed so no harm was done. For me, I see my birthsex as not anyone's business till then. In public otherwise I do not answer that question if asked unless I want to.

Anita opined that it probably wasn't harmful to be a bit deceptive, but I think not. Read what happened to Gwen Araujo. Her murderer's fates are now in the hands of a jury because she was outed with the wrong people at the wrong time in the wrong setting. And she'd passed so well there so many times before that she even had anal sex with two of them; with them never knowing she was pre-op!(as stupid as this seems, it was admitted to by one of these guys, and testified to by observers for the other guy! The truth can be so strange sometimes...) Purposeful deception can have potentially fatal results so think it over well before going there.

I like to know where I stand at all times, and to do that I must also know that those who it matters to know where we both stand. It's no fun outing myself, but I'm not out to see anyone hurt, especially ME, so I feel it is the best policy when somebody wants to become intimate with me. Till then, it really doesn't matter; if they wish to treat me like a lady then so be it. I like it!

Penny T.