Just a little girl talk....

[Debbie Jean]

I really love this time of the year when the fall colors are at their peak. I went to a nearby city park to photograph some of the fall colors. Since the temp was very warm for mid-October in Minnesota, I decided to wear some 'summer stuff' for one last time before packing it away. I wore a black crop top with my little red school girl skirt. Since the fall colors photograph best (most vivid color) in bright sunshine, I sat on a park bench fiddling with my camera while waiting for the sun to come out from behind a cloud. A woman (total stranger) stepped off the walking path and sat down next to me on the park bench. Although I was dressed 'femme', it was very obvious that I was a guy. The conversation went like this:

She: I just had to come over and tell you how cute I think your little skirt is.
Me: Thank you. It is one of my favorites.
She: Where did you get it?
Me: I bought it online at (I'm not sure if I can name stores here, so if you really want to know, just PM me and I'll tell you where).
She: It's sinfully short, so be sure you have clean panties on when you wear that skirt.
Me: Right. My panties are fine, I looked just before I came down here.
She: What kind of panties are you wearing?
Me: Vanity Fair Ravissant nylon briefs. They are my favorite everyday panty.
She: What colors do you like?
Me: Any pastel colors. Not too keen on dark colors though. I prefer solid colors over prints, although I do have a couple pairs of prints.
She: Let me see.

Without bothering to ask me, she just lifted the hem on my skirt enough to reveal the pink "Ravs" that i was wearing. She said: "Cute", and then got up and wished me a good day as she went on her way.

Such a delightful experience, and yes her wish did come true because I did have a good rest of my day because of that experience. It just felt so natural, I didn't feel hit upon or threatened or uneasy in any way. Just having fun, just a little girl talk.

Thanks for reading.
XOXO
Debbie Jean

[Eileen (SO)]

You were sexually assaulted. Just because it might have been done by a 'woman' and you got pleasure, doesn't make it OK.
Women are not in the habit of lifting the hem on a stranger's skirt to view their panties.

Eileen

[Anthony Simon]

"It just felt so natural..."

Wiki definition:

Sexual assault is a sexual act in which a person is coerced or physically forced to engage against their will, or non-consensual sexual touching of a person]

I don't see how what happened can have been, in an underlying way, against Debbie Jean's will or non-consensual if "it just felt so natural."

[Eileen (SO)]

I really don't mean to spoil Debbie Jean's good feelings. I hope she has more positive exchanges in the future. Whether consensual or not, people do not randomly inspect each other's panties. This stranger saw Debbie dressed female, but "obvious that I was a guy" and decided to check out her genitalia. What it were a man doing this?
Wiki is not the best legal resource anyway. Naivety is no excuse for improper behavior.

Debbie Jean, when you are in public, dressing as one gender or the other would alleviate an impromptu panty check. Women do compliment each other on certain outfits and to find out where they were bought. Never in my life has anyone asked about my panties. You'll be taken more seriously if dressed as a woman, act like one. I hope in the future that you can get some great fall photos, a talent I don't have, and not be questioned about your gender.
I'm sure you felt good having this woman engage in conversation, that's fine. When the questions go toward panties, most women would walk away. Quickly. This exchange, however you might have enjoyed it, was not normal 'girl talk'.

I have a budding woman in our household as a husband and am very protective that her appearance in public should not raise any doubts.

Eileen

[Debbie Jean]

'Sexually assaulted' sounds a bit strong to me. Perhaps more the language of a hungry lawyer looking for a fight. Flirting? Definitely yes, and I would even go so far as to say 'sexual teasing', which in my book could be another name for flirting. That action may or may not be OK depending on whose standards are applied here, but let 'he who is without sin cast the first stone'. In other words all of us I imagine have been on either the 'sending and enjoying' or 'receiving and enjoying' end of a 'playful little flirt' at least once in our lives. Even so, nobody died as a result, can't be that big of a deal. Note that no names, phone numbers etc were exchanged, but rather she just took a quick peek then scooted off never to be seen again. It was just a chance encounter between two people wanting to have a little fun, and both of us were totally OK with every part of that encounter. I will probably never run into that woman again.

As to women being in the habit of lifting skirts, well as we saw here, some women yes and some women no.

Debbie Jean

[SilverLady(SO)]

'Sexually assaulted' sounds a bit strong to me. Perhaps more the language of a hungry lawyer looking for a fight.

[snip]

Even so, nobody died as a result, can't be that big of a deal.

Excuse me? My background - or anyone else's - aside, one does not need to be a 'hungry lawyer' in order to see things clearly, also known as reality, and truth.

Your comments prove that you are definitely a 'guy' talking, because we GGs will call it like it really is: sexual assault.

If you or anyone else does not think that was the case, then I dare you to perform that same 'act' upon a GG stranger - as a guy - in the same/similar setting as you were in, and see what happens as a result.

Yeah, I didn't think you'd take me up on the dare, because you know what would happen to you: arrested for sexual assault and/or battery. Which is what it was in your case, and would be if you had done it to someone else.


Double standards, anyone?


- SL

[Diana Michelle]

Thank you SL and Eileen for jumping in here.

' Even so, nobody died as a result, can't be that big of a deal.
Debbie Jean

So if no one dies sexual assault is OK? Is that what you are trying to say here? Thankfully I have never been a victim if sexual assault however I know women, both TG and cisgender that have been. Am I to tell them you didn't get killed so it isn't that big of a deal?

Sexual assault is a real threat to both genders regardless of gender orientation. This is not a joking manner but rather a very serious and violating episode. Do you think just because it was a GG that lifted your skirt this action is acceptable? How would you have felt had been a man that lifted your skirt? How do you think your wife or your mother or daughter or your sister or a female friend would have felt had someone regardless of gender lifted their skirt to check out their panties? It doesn't matter the gender of the lifter this is a direct violation of their personal space. I believe I can speak for both Eileen and SL as well as women in general I would have gotten as far and as fast as I could from this situation long before it escalated to this level. Personally I would have placed a knee appropriately on the potential offender or worse. I cannot speak for other women however I have a feeling most would join me in that sentiment.

As to women being in the habit of lifting skirts, well as we saw here, some women yes and some women no.

Debbie Jean

I have been married twice and yes I have been at the sink or making the bed or doing something else around the house and one of them may have playfully come up behind me and lifted my skirt with a cute comment such as "And what are you wearing under that?" To be honest yes it is ego flattering and I most times I played along which led to additional flirting and sometimes well beyond. Now had one of them attempted to lift my skirt in public, which neither of them would have ever done, I would have at the very least smacked them and they would have deserved it and knew that. This is not acceptable behavior for anyone in public except sluts or ladies of the evening!

I have been wearing skirts more of my life than I haven't and I can never remember an incident even close to this violation even amongst my closest friends. Yes when women get together the discussion can encompass many subjects, some general and some quite personal. I cannot remember a conversation directly related to panties however they may have been. If there ever were such a discussion it may have related to styles or fabrics however I will testify on a stack of Bibles none ever turned into show and tell nor were there any implications that it should!

Debbie Jean whether you realize or want to accept you were sexually assaulted and you owe it everyone regardless of gender to report it. This is not cute or a game! There are sexual predators out there and whether you realize it you probably encounter one or more everyday. This is a bane on society and we must do everything within our power to see that it is eliminated making the streets safer for all of us!

[SilverLady(SO)]

Thank you, Diana!!


- SL

[Debbie Jean]

So I see that what we have here is a difference of opinion. This is good, debate is healthy as long as we all can agree to disagree without being disagreeable, which I think has been the case here for the most part. I originally planned to go the PM route with my replies, in order to keep our back-and-forth out of public view, however I decided to keep it public so that the visiting public can see the general level of maturity and respect for each other's opinions shown here. Good job folks!

Some say it's OK, some not OK. The fact is that men have been peeking (mental skirt lifting) long before any of us came on the scene, and will continue to do so long after all of us are dead and gone. I see that as being OK as long as 'looking' is as far as it goes, and that was as far as it went in the case of my original post. Now I think it would be hypocritical of me if I would condemn women who look up men's skirts or gym shorts, given my 'track record' in that area of life. It happens a lot, and not to just me but to a lot of men at the gym that I usually go to. Some women (and men too) who go to the gym do not necessarily go to work out. Remember that. I guess that if I were to give advice, I would say: If it bothers you, then don't give them the opportunity. In other words, cover up.

I don't want to ramble on too long, so I'll leave by saying: Thank you all for your input. My opinion is what it is, and yours is what it is. I don't think the purpose of this exchange has been to change anybody's viewpoints, but rather to give all of us an opportunity to increase our respect for those with differing viewpoints.

Thanks for reading.

Hugs,
Debbie Jean

[Martina Hall]

Careful, Debbie Jean, it sounds like she was a cop.

[Debbie Jean]

Hi Martina,
Thanks for the advice. I don't think she was a cop in this particular chance meeting, but then on the other hand one can never be 100% sure. Again thanks.

I however am no stranger to attempted entrapment. I say 'attempted' because two very attractive women tried to entrap me a few months ago at our local mall. They wanted to know if I wanted to 'have a little fun' at a local motel. By the way I was dressed in total male mode (drab) at the time. I declined their offer not because I suspected entrapment, but rather because I am married and intend to stay faithful to my wife "as long as you both shall live". I told them that, so then they realized that they weren't about to get me caught in their web. So as they started to walk away, I 'blew their cover', much to their chagrin I'm sure. I said: "Just wanted to let you know that your car, the one with the funny turn signal on the roof, is illegally parked out front. I had a good laugh off of that one.

have a good day,
Debbie Jean

[Eileen (SO)]

I think that Debbie Jean in her 'pink fog' enjoyed any personal exchange with a woman as complimentary. This is not a difference of opinion about what happened, it was an illegal act. Dressing as a woman in public is more than the clothing, you have to act the gender you portray. My Terri has had casual conversations when out. None ever about her panties. Outfits, yes, undies never.

As to women being in the habit of lifting skirts, well as we saw here, some women yes and some women no. Debbie Jean

Uh, no, women do not lift strangers skirts legally.

I hope you lose your naivety before something bad happens. As a woman, strangers should never mention your panties in public, ever. In all my 60 years of life, never have I had the urge to lift up some one's skirt. There was nothing 'natural' about it. This woman was checking out your genitalia. If that's not sexual assault, then nothing is up to rape.

Any of the assaults by Harvey Weinstain end in death? Nobody died, so it's OK?

Even cops don't do this, legally. There was no talk of money exchanged. Sexual assault, pure and simple.

Eileen

[Anthony Simon]

As a child I suffered a form of sexual abuse. It happened when my grandmother put me in a nightgown after I'd wet the bed. From that I always date my CDing - in that she woke up the feelings that I had inside me. From that moment I was in conflict about it - with the result that it was a torment.

[Diana Michelle]

Well put Eileen!

Debbie Jean you talk about this being a "difference of opinion". From what I see here it is about women telling you how the world is today. Opinions are about red or white wine, charcoal or saddle leather interior with your black car, nude or suntan pantyhose, CNN or Fox News, dress or skirt and blouse, chicken or fish for dinner, etc. The reactions posted here are not opinions! They are facts in an attempt to relate to you a sad fact of life that every woman faces every day of her life.

Is that guy sitting 2 tables over smiling at you while you have lunch with friends just flirting or does he have other thoughts? Is it coincidence that man came out the same door at the mall a few seconds after I did and is walking up the same aisle of the parking lot as I am or is he a predator? What about the woman whose car breaks down on the desolate stretch of highway? Is the guy who stops to see if he can help really there to help or scope out his next victim? Please don't even try to use the old tired line you can tell by looking, think of Ted Bundy. Yes these are extreme cases of potential sexual predators and abuse but what that women did by lifting your skirt is no less humiliating or violating, ergo sexual abuse through the eyes of a woman. Eileen is 100% correct when she told you if you present yourself as female in public you owe it to yourself and all others to act accordingly.

I would be willing to wager just about every woman has experienced some form of sexual assault from feeling some man rub his hand across her backside in a crowded elevator to sexual innuendos and beyond. No I am not a raging Women's Libber and do not consider a wolf whistle as one walks past the proverbial construction site sexual harassment though some women do. However shouts of "Shake it baby!" and "Looking hot mama!" certainly push the edge, don't you agree? This is what women experience every day. This is not about degrees of harassment or abuse although personally I would consider any stranger lifting or even attempting to lift my skirt a huge degree of abuse and would take appropriate actions instantly.

I have had the privilege of working with several girls as they wend their way through transition. Obviously they are full of questions and concerns and we have had long talks about the do's and don'ts. One of the first subjects I broach with any girl going through or even considering that step is about how different it is out there on the other side of the gender curtain and the potential dangers and predators out there.

In your most recent post you talk of being married. Have you discussed this incident with your wife? What was her reaction? If you are not out to her raise the subject in a generic manner or talk to another female you trust. I think you might discover the reactions here are tame in comparison to what they will say.

Debbie Jean none of us are trying to rain on your parade. Closets are for clothes and everyone deserves the right to live their life as they see fit within the confines of the law. What I and others are attempting to get through to you is this is not some "cute" experience or just how things are. I firmly believe if you were to ask 100 people, 50 men and 50 women, if the act of lifting a stranger's skirt were sexual abuse you would be hard pressed to find anyone who would say it wasn't. Gender does not matter here.

[Anthony Simon]

There are reasons that the experience of touching or whatever are different for men and women. One is the simple physical fact that women can be made pregnant if the experience were to go that far. IMO That threat must always be implicit in physical contact of this sort - so that, necessarily, women's control of their physical space is of key importance to them.

No such threat exists with men and, I would suggest, results in different reactions when they are touched by members of the other gender. Note that Debbie Jean stated she was quite clearly a man at the time of the incident.