Crossdressers-Haven.com

Hi all and best of the season to you all...


I'm sitting here thinking about 'what else?' cding and thoughts of dressing with femme clothes etc. while portraying your male self. I enjoy dressing fully at times trying to look passable and when I am so dressed and made up feel like the girl in me can. I love it but I do not just dress up to be totally enfemme; I dress in femme clothes etc. as a guy because even though I am a male, I have a girl inside me who IMO deserves some daily satisfaction ( The male in me can't hog it all ) so I enjoy bringing femme attire with me even endrab, but I have a long desire to show some of this ( as scary as it can be ) especially the thought of dressing in mostly male clothes ( maybe girls jeans ) and putting on a pair of my spike heeled boots ( Mmmmm esp. my granny boots ) and just going about my affairs. I can't tell you how much this thought sits on my mind, but to go out obviously dressed as a guy ( basically) looks but wearing high heel boots or pumps ( the pumps would show my pantyhose be they beige,suntan or black etc. ) would be intimidating as I would wonder and worry how others might see me. I know most people would probably not or hardly notice or care, but it's that GREY ZONE that keeps me in fear ( as much of a turn on it would be ) I would love to imagine that maybe a lady would take interest in my crossing male/female attaire and make a beautuiful comment or ask a question on my shoes, boots etc. but I can't seem, to cross that line from dreaming of celebrating my femme side even endrab to doing it. Have you all ever done/do similar things and what kind of feelings did you all have and responses did you recieve... T.I.A.

Hi Lacey,

Yes, I've often done so (and still do). The trick is to wear femme clothing that verges on the unisex. People don't notice; those that do, don't really care, it seems to me. Living in a big city does that. (I imagine you'd have a harder time of it say, in Surrey or in North Van, than you would on Granville or Georgia streets.)

I've been out many times in drab, wearing women's clothing from neck to toe. I usually wear black dress slacks or women's cut jeans (no thong peek-a-booing for me, though!), various types of blouses (some provocatively sheer, considering I'm a man wearing a bra!), all the appropriate undies and hose, low heels (shoes in summer, boots in winter, and sandals but seldom--my glossy, crimson pretties being somewhat on the shy side), and, depending on the weather, an assortment of colourful windbreakers. No long coats for me--my sumptuous derrière is my best feature, I've been told.

I have had some people make comments. One woman, a cashier at a Tim Horton's donut shop, asked me if I played in a band or something (this was about four years ago, in Victoria, BC: I still had my ponytail back then and was also wearing a touch of makeup at the time). I looked her straight in the eye and simply said: "No, I'm a crossdresser. Can I have one more cream for my coffee, please?" She took it all in her stride and even laughed in a good-natured way. It was a pleasant encounter.

Of course, I do notice when people notice; I just don't care that much anymore. Let them think what they will. I mean, they will anyway, won't they? What I see is this: most women who do notice look at me with a frank and somewhat disarming curiosity and most men who notice get this look on their face as though they'd had rather not noticed. Let them play the ostrich, I say--I will remain myself.

I'm sure you must have plenty of awesome spots in Vancouver, Lacey, where you can safely "drab en femme." The Gay district, Stanley Park, and the Granville Island market come to mind. Check them out! Once you've gotten past the inevitable hurdle of anxiety--I do believe we're the only species on Earth with this awfully consistent propensity to visualize worst-case scenarios--you'll be fine, you'll see. Who knows? Next step might be showing the world Lacey in all her glory, somewhere down the road...

Love,
CJ

Hi all:

I think this is a very interesting thread. I haven't been out completely en femme yet (I plan to soon), but I think it would also be fun to do the sorts of things CJ mentions. I have been wearing a pearl necklace and various bracelets, and nobody has noticed. I also often wear pantyhose. In a few days I'm going with another CD to Tall Girls to buy some women's jeans and other items I can wear everyday. Just wearing something female-identified gives me a lot of satisfaction. For me, rather than being either enfemme (not possible at work) or endrab (my default option), why not be in-between as much as possible? Hmmm.

LOVE,

Laura

Hi Laura,

The "In-Betweeners," eh? Now there's a club I'd see myself becoming a member of. How do I apply?

Love,
Christina

Christina, I think you and Lace are already members. (and I'm about to get my membership card) To me the thing is not just the dressing, but also the ability of some of us to 1) synthesize the masculine and feminine and 2) move back and forth across supposedly impermeable gender boundaries. I just took the COGIATI test and came up an "androgyne." The description read, in part: "In some cultures in history, you would be considered to be a third sex, independent of the polarities of masculine or feminine. Your gender issues are intrinsic to your construction, and you will most likely find your happiness playing with expressing both genders as you feel like it." I like that. I'm beginning to think of it as possibly a kind of mission to the larger culture. Crossdressers may be in the vanguard of a new kind of humanity emerging that puts partially breaks down and partially plays with gender boundaries. Or to put it more accurately, we are (or could be) doing for men what some cultural feminists have done for women: appropriating the other gender characteristics as their own.

I also think being in-between can be sexy. I'm not sure why. [Does it have something to do with Spirit breaking through finite human boundaries to Divine ecstasy?] This girl hasn't thought that one through, yet.

Love,

Laura

Well,
I haven't been out En femme, yet. But I do wear sexy underthings as much as possible. I also have in my vehicle my "Go" bag. In which i carry an assortment of things to wear on long drives. (I drive alot)

Hugs to all,
KyrA

So isn't going out as a guy wearing women's clothes the same as gals going out wearing men's clothes? If so then is that crossdressing?

Whether men wearing women's clothes as men is crossdressing depends on your definition of crossdressing.

Before I went full time, I used to do that for work. I carried a purse (they're much more practical than pockets!), and wore women's blouses, pants, and shoes. And of course panties. Have some amusing stories...

One of my favorite "shirts" was made of a material that was rather sheer. One of the women in the office complimented me on it (you'll find that happens a lot when you wear women's clothes as a guy, by the way). Then she said, "I wish women could wear things like that!" I almost burst out laughing of course.

Another time, a couple TS friends and I were out shopping; they dropped me off at work that day. One of them said, "you're going to work like that?" I said, "Every day." Very soon after, she stopped being full time at work, and just dresses androgynously. She says it's a lot easier. :-s

Hi all,

Rikki wrote: Whether men wearing women's clothes as men is crossdressing depends on your definition of crossdressing.

I agree wholheartedly. For many (but by no means all), a defining feature of crossdressing is the desire to actually pass as a member of the opposite sex. I think there's a difference between my wearing women's slacks, blouses, underwear, or shoes while in boy mode (I even keep a short beard most of the time) and dressing fully en femme. Yes, it's all women's clothing; however, the intent (and, hopefully, the result ) is completely different.

In one instance (fully en femme) I'm a crossdresser, because I've acknowledged the existence of an essentially feminine component in my psychological makeup (pun most definitely intended! ) and present accordingly. It's something I am. In the other (boy mode partial "dressing"), I'm a crossdresser, because I wear women's clothes even though I'm not necessarily trying to present as female. Wearing those clothes is something I do. Is there a difference between the two slightly different senses in which I use the word? Maybe.

I tend to make a distinction between being a "polygendered" person who, when en femme, dresses "across" traditional gender boundaries--a matter of [cross-]gender conformity-- and merely wearing women's clothes, while in boy mode, as a matter of preference, comfort, and convenience--a matter of gender rebellion.

For me, a big motivation in trying to "pass" is that I don't want to make it too obvious that I'm wearing gender-inappropriate clothing. The acrylic nails, the makeup, the long flowing hair, the delicate jewelry, the smooth skin and, yes, the pretty clothes, are all signifiers of femininity; in order not to have anyone doubt this femininity, many CDs are tempted to go to great lengths to emphasize these signifiers, with decidedly mixed results. We just as much wish to be taken for women because of the clothes and "accessories" we wear as we want to present the way we do (to pass, in other words) because it allows us to express our feminine side. It's a two-way street. In boy mode, that's a moot point; if I'm wearing women's clothes, well, it immediately becomes obvious to anyone who looks a little more closely that I am, indeed, wearing gender-inappropriate clothing. There's no possibility of "passing" as either a man or a woman if you're obviously a man wearing women's clothes. I think that, to some extent, this may bother people more than meeting a fully crossdressed gal because this gal is at least trying to fit in an accepted gender "box." (Something I think many SOs have an issue with.) Dress (and change your looks) in a more androgynous manner and, suddenly, you're outside the box, you become a "third term" (in Marjorie Garber's parlance). Now, that makes people squirm because they can't fit their brain around the idea of someone not being either a man or a woman. You have to be one or the other, culture dictates. Want to see what I mean? Look at the drawing below, and try to tell if the triangle is leaning toward or away from you. It's actually doing neither--it's just lines on a piece of (virtual) paper. However, our brain is constantly trying to jump from one to the other. It's a little bit like that when men and women play close to the gender fence. We're profoundly binary (yin-yang; up-down; light-dark; right-left; good-bad; girl-boy, etc.); we want clarity and contrast. But this is a soft-focus world.

I, for one, wouldn't want it any other way, though. I love the essential mystery (and "un-pin-down-ability") of who I am. I welcome my "Spirit breaking through finite human boundaries to Divine ecstasy."

Love,
Christina

Hi Christina:

Your post has clarified to me some important issues and raised some questions. As you say, when we try to jump over to the other side of the fence, so to speak, we remain in a gender box, just a different one. Dressing androgynously without trying to “pass” breaks down or erases the boundaries. I agree that it is more revolutionary. I also think it may be truer to our inner life—our essential mystery. And that makes me reconsider what my primary goal should be: a more realistic feminine presentation or mixing and matching and living androgrynously. Thanks for making me think again.

Two questions (for everyone):

--Is partial dressing as satisfying as going all the way? I’d be interested in hearing from Christina and others who have experiences? If it is not as satisfying to our feminine selves, then it becomes a mere social statement. On the other hand, if it is truer to our inner selves, it should be MORE satisfying.

--You mention that many SO’s have an issue with crossdressers trying to “pass.” I wonder how common that is among SO’s. I wonder whether more androgynous dressing would help keep marriages and other important relationships from disintegrating. Does anyone have experiences to report?

Dying to hear more,

Love,

Laura

Partial dressing:

It can be rewarding at times and also can be less fulfilling. It depends on my state of mind. There are certain articles of female clothing that interest me greatly, these are high heels ( shoes or boots ) pantyhose, and lingerie. I also can add short skirts. If endrab I shall wear these clothes in any combination, my femme self enjoys heightened arousal and sensitivity to herself. This is so even though I am a male in all respects.

Arousal also trips me into fantasy mode, and yes I am a great developer of sexual fantasies. I have a mind that is always on. Maybe these are such because for me as a crosdrsseer I have not had a lot of relationships with women. I have been married and now divorced and I have had a limited selection of girlfriends, but to me through most of my life esp. my developing adolencent years I was mixed up and confused about my sexuality. I am not gay ( not that there is anything wrong with that ) but I could not as I grew up figure myself out. So I fantasized, most were submissive and were bi-sexual. I would build in such with both males and females, generally having me submit and become a sissy. When I dress partially enfemme and my fantasy mind gets going I will become very aroused from this combination of partial dressing and fantasy.

I often think about pushing limits out in public with partial dressing, if only for the erotic turn on it may be. What I mean is wearing high heels, ladies jeans or slacks and maybe a blouse etc. I get too scared to do this as of yet, though I have come close. So partial dressing for me encompasses many things, from pleasure of wearing things that excite me, making me slip into femme mind, and to heighten my sexual fantasies.


Dressing enfemme:

I really become a different person when totally made up to look passable. It's as if my femme side takes the control over me. Once I complete my dressing with wig and makeup, I see a WOMAN and a fairly passable one. My demeanor changes and I emmulate ( quite naturally ) femine mannerisms. It can be such a special event for me to dress up to being passable. Lacey becomes me and I find an inner peace and relaxation that I never find when I am endrab. I rarely slip into wild fantasies when dressed fully, but the erotic side of such has lead to me have exciting sexual relations with my last GF ( who liked cders) These times were erotic and I felt very much like a lesbian and that was a real interesting mindset to slip into.

Dressing enfemme for me is another avenue to my total self-expression, I enjoy it but do not need it to only be happy as a cder. Whether partially dressed or all out I am in my mind a very complex person who at these times ( be they partial or full dress) am into various mindsets and erotic ideals. I can be thrilled slipping on a brand new pair of pantyhose and high heels, I can get excited to dress partial but slutty and become a submissive even sissyish, or I can dress fully and become an attractive woman.

I guess cders are maybe among the most complex beings out there as IMO we can truly get intouch with masculine and feminine thoughts and moods. I know I see the world very differently from most of my quote regular male friends. I know it as I hear the way they talk and think. Oh I can be as GUY LIKE as most in many ways, but I see GG's and femininity in really different ways than what I think most typical males do. For instance I can see an attractive GG and get all googly-eyed as any guy. I can imagine having a relationship with her including sexual, but if she is dressed in clothes I like I can also see her as a female might including wanting to wear her clothes. It's really quite wild and at times confusing.

My cding is at times a CURSE but at other times a BLESSING, I'm sure many of you will concur.

take care all

Hi Lacey,

Great thread!

I like the way you write. It's very engaging.

I kind of feel that cross-dressing en drabbe is one of the things CD'rs don't talk about enough.

Dressing when not en femme for me is just as important as dressing en femme. I just mean for those of us who dress more it's kind of part of the norm to come home take off your slacks and walk around in hose and a shirt.
I love that look with white socks.

Again Lacey, thanks for posting this thread I think it's very important. I hope more people give feedback.

Beauty

Hi all,

Laura,

I should clarify: it's not that SOs have an issue with their sweetie trying to pass. Rather, it's with the fact that their mates seem unwilling (or incapable) of blending their feminine inclinations in with their male persona. A couple of weeks ago, Lorna wrote, "I don't believe I can get used to it , I like his gentleness and helpfulness that seems to emerge when he dresses up, but he could be more like this anyway." This is what I mean. I've spent a lot of time in school with feminist women (I was the lone male for the last half of a year-long course in Women's Studies--Christina was sweating, I tell you!!!) and the subject of gender transgression often came up. Almost universally, the women in the course panned the idea of a man having to pretend to be a woman in order to express his femininity (and, of course, vice versa). They were very much in favour of a more relaxed "code" of gender-appropriate behaviour, one where a man could feel free to express feminine elements of his personality without fear of ridicule and where a woman could express masculine character traits without fear of being considered anything other than a woman. Idealistic, I know, but a noble aim nonetheless, I think.

As to satisfaction, yes, partial dressing is maybe more of a social statement for me than going fully femme. When I dress partially, I'm not trying to express femininity, I'm just wearing clothes not traditionally associated with my gender. When I "do" Christina in all her glory and beauty, it's so that a deep, feminine part of my soul can emerge and take a few breaths before heading back down into the depths. She's never really too far below the surface, though. Many of the qualities I possess as a person in the "normal" world I can attribute to my hidden femininity. Like Lacey, there are times when I find I don't quite fit into the world of "regular" guys and neither do I fit into, it goes without saying, the world of "regular" gals. My entire life, I've had to create my own world.

Of course, there are times when wearing women's clothes is merely and purely a sexual thing--a tactile and visual, very erotic, delight. And it's almost, but not quite, beyond me how women aren't continuously aware of the pleasure such clothing produces. The richness, variety, sensuousness, and "second-skinness" of the various textures and fabrics are a veritable feast for the skin and the eyes. Being wrapped in silks and satins is like moving through fragrant oils. What's not to like?

As far as partial, or more androgynous, dressing being a possibly relationship-saving compromise, well, I can't really say. I've never really been in a relationship where my SO wasn't accepting of my crossdressing (some even encouraged it, to some extent). So, again, I think it's a case by case situation.

Beauty,

I can totally picture your looking so cute as you pad around the house in your shirt, white socks, and hose!

Love,
CJ


Lacey,

CJ wrote: As far as partial, or more androgynous, dressing being a possibly relationship-saving compromise, well, I can't really say. I've never really been in a relationship where my SO wasn't accepting of my crossdressing (some even encouraged it, to some extent). So, again, I think it's a case by case situation.

Not to deny your "case-by-case" statement, this is actually a sentiment I think I could agree with.

Just tonight, my SO and I discussed some of her 'issues' of my CD'ing. (I keep most of my clothes at a friends house, and she has never seen me completely dressed)

And while she does not accept my dressing, she has allowed me to wear lingerie full time; wear women's jeans; wear women's shorts; I have a couple of pair of women's pants I wear to work; and I even wear pajamas to bed. All of these she allows, without any comment to the contrary. (I tried a simple pullover top, last spring, and that failed miserably. Hoping to try a little different style this year. )

Sorry to be so long-winded in getting to my point...but , for the most part, all I am really getting to do - for about the last 8 months - is partially dress, and I find that this does fulfill quite a large need within me. However, I will not go so far to say that there are still not days where I want to run out, throw on a skirt/blouse, make-up, wig, heels, and all and head out shopping. But I think it is easier to get through those days when I'm not given the opportunity to dress up completely.

Did any of that make sense? I'm having an 'issues' crisis. I have another post I want to make, and....I'm running on. NM.

Hugs.

Hi all,

Marilyn,

What you say makes perfect sense. If even partial dressing both sates a need in you and is acceptable to your SO, then that seems like the way to go, doesn't it? Trying to understand, here: does the "issues" crisis you mention have anything to do with a "boundary" negotiation with your SO? Are you trying to find ways to accept that there are things she finds unacceptable? Is this what you're struggling with, Marilyn?

Love,
CJ