Another question for CDers.

[Absaroka]

Georgia that makes perfect sense and the feeling of power from within with regard to your sexuality is something I sort of feel sometimes when I am dresssed en femme. I don't go for the "slut look" but there is something about some of the clothes. I also feel that sometimes they express something else that is harder to describe. I feeling of being emotionally cuddly and more feeling and sensual (look at all the posts about the wind in another thread) THese are feelings I strongly believe are appropriate to men and I feel them as a man also but when dressed up they feel a bit different. I feel as if I could be a nicer person.

All kind of silly since this is done privately so who am I being nicer to besides myself. BUt I would like to think that some of these feelings carry over into male mode.

As to how I feel in mens clothes of any particular style I will talk about that later as it is lunch time.

ANdrea

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Thanks for jumping Georgia, I'm also interested in the differences between male and female turn-ons. I definitely agree old adage about men give love to get sex and women give sex to get love is a reflection of outdated attitudes. Only a generation ago, the general wisdom was that women didn't even have sexual fantasies, until Nancy Friday showed otherwise. It's interesting how fast things have moved, in that Friday thought women would never have fantasies about two men (the mirror image to the popular male fantasy about two women together), but now I know a number of women who like that sort of thing.

That said, it does seem like hormones do play a role, judging by the experiences of both MTFs and FTMs who've gone on them. It's well-known that MTFs often lose their libido, while FTMs increase their's. Transman Raven Kaldera in his "Femininst on Testosterone" essay, has some interesting observations about this. Since it's a bit, um, detailed (although nothing explicit) I won't link to it directly, but if you're interested, googling on his name and the essay title will take you to it.

One of his more interesting observations was:

I also learned something chilling about my new sexuality - it was far, far more programmable than it used to be. Before T, my sexual interests were fairly static and increased slowly, one new thing at a time. If I didn't like something, I just didn't like it. After T, I discovered that if I could think about something heretofore not sexually interesting during approximately six [...] sessions, that item would become a turn-on in and of itself....no matter what it was. I could literally program myself in a Pavlovian manner to be aroused by whatever I wanted. I found this out by accident, after I inadvertently added a few new dishes to my arousal buffet without meaning to. When I realized this, I sort of sat in shock for a while, and then I said to myself, "Boy, you're going to have to be very, very careful from now on."

Which may be why males are more prone to fetishitic behavior -- although in another essay Kaldera points out he's observed "fetishitic TV" type behavior among females as well in the lesbian community and thinks females are just as capable of fetishitic behavior, if people will just admit that it can happen.

Of course, part of the difficulty is to what extent these changes are truly driven by hormonal changes and how much may be a placebo effect based on people's expectations about male/female sexuality.

But dressed to the nine's, whether they are *sexy* clothes or business clothes, that awareness of *sensuality* turns into an awareness of *sexuality*. It's a little grittier, and there is a lot of power in that feeling - not power *over* guys, but power from within myself. It's sort of the difference between being a *girl* and being a *woman*, sort of an awareness of owning my own sexuality.

To slide into to answering your question, this is very similar to the feeling I can get from being en femme -- and I think the "looking good/feeling sexy" feeling you describe is a major motivation for many CDs. (And I assume it's easy to see how this can slide into sluttiness -- at least appearance-wise for either gender. Certainly I've seen clubwear stores for GGs that have clothes that are just as exhibistionistic as anything seen on "dark side" CD sites.)

Do we get a similar charge out of being dressed-to-the-nines en homme? For most of us, I'd say probably not (whether CD or non-CD). Part of it is that too many of us truly look drab while en homme -- but a big part of that I think is the outside is unfortunately reflective of what we're feeling on the inside. Especially those us who are older grew up in an era where male beauty wasn't really acknowledged, let alone openly valued. A short example. When I was in college I was in the best shape of my life and very buffed out. Once I mentioned to my girlfriend that I'd like to dress sexy for her. She thought about it for awhile and said maybe I could wear a suit. Ummm... not exactly what I was thinking of.

"Pretty boy" is still a bit of an insult and a man who shows too much skin is generally viewed as a bit sleazy -- think of the stereotypical lounge lizard with his shirt unbuttoned a bit too far.

Part of it may be a reflection of the differing tastes in what men and women find sexy. For example, I heard women often find a nice back attractive, which is something men don't focus on. So clothing may actually be flattering to our bodies and attractive to GGs, but we don't really realize it. But personally, I don't find men's clothing to be as "show-offy" as women's, and less likely to generate the sort of feelings you've described. This is particularly true when comes to lingerie -- the stuff for men often strikes me as silly looking, and in fact I think some of it is intentionally humourous, perhaps to diffuse uneasiness some GGs themselves feel over male sexuality.

That said, I've been a metrosexual long before the term was coined -- and I suspect my interest in being stylish and looking good is one thing that prompted my CDing (if I couldn't do it en homme, these feelings could be expressed en femme). And I'm also a big believer of trying to integrate your masculine and feminine aspects, so I've used some of the beauty lessons from being en femme to look better en homme.

I do think things are changing, among boys today there does seem to be more of an opportunity/expectation to look good and unfortunately they seem to be following girls into the unhealthy aspects of beauty culture. For example, I've heard that the steroid abuse among teen boys is more often driven by the feeling they need to look attractive than for sports-related reasons.

So back to your original question, when I'm dressed to the nine today, I do feel more of a sense of powerful sexuality now that I've allowed myself to accept that I can "look good/feel sexy" en homme -- but it's still not as strong a charge of raw sexuality that I can feel en femme.

[Loretta Ann]

Now, my question for ya'll is this - when you are dressed to the nine's in male clothes - got your power suit on, or your dancing shoes, or your Tony Lamas (if you're from Texas) and looking and smelling fine, do you get that sense of powerful sexuality? And do you think that non-CD males get it?

My answer is no, I get that sense when dressed to the nines in woman's apparel.

[Absaroka]

Georgia your question about how we feel in mens clothes is a great one and I can go a lot of places besides feeling sexy.

About 30 years ago while I was in college a girlfriend sent me flowers one day. I was very touched and happy. And among other reactions I wanted to show how I felt by dressing "up" so off went the blue jeans and teeshirt and I put on a nice pair of striped pants and a bright orange shirt (dating myself a lot there) I guess I wanted my clothes to be colorful, bright, happy, celebratory. The way I felt.

At one time being dressed up like that gave me a feeling of confidence to some small extent. It felt nice to think I probably looked good and that I had power over what I would wear and express. Back then I was younger and thinner and in good shape and in the summer what made me feel best was to wear a pair of cut offs and not much else. I don't know that I felt sexy but I felt good about my body and it was nice to feel that no one would grimace inwardly if they looked at me. My girlfriend said I was an exhibitionist but I felt that if you've got it don't feel you have to hide it.

Being dressed in a suit and tie no matter how good I may actually look makes me feel trapped by my clothes. You can't move around as easily and you get too warm to easily. But a lot of men I know feel emotionally comfortable in these clothes. It makes them feel as if they have made a statement about where they belong. I feel also that I am pretending to be someone I am not. Worst of all, I am doing something I do not want to do in order to satisfy someone else's expectations. Now if it's a funeral or something I'm okay with it because I am deciding to conform to be supportive of them. But a party....a suit and tie makes me feel like I've become societies punk, lost all my personal power and so forth. Not sexy at all. What is sexy about a cowardly lie?

I think that is a big issue for men with clothes. Our clothing identifies us by group, class, occupation, and sometimes even by race. We want to emphasize where it is we think we belong by our clothing. Cding says to many that we belong outside of the sexual rules which of course is very discomforting in that it makes us appear unpredictable. "He looks like a woman. Will he want to treat me the way a woman does but with male libido? who knows what he will do?" On the other hand most men feel women emulating men is sooooooooooo predictable. We are so wonderful that of course you secretly envy us our very being.

Also when I was younger I would like to dress a bit like a teenage hood. Black tee shirt, blue jeans, boots was it back then. Only a little bit because I am not a hood. But I could look enough like one to intimidate the "citizens" but not look like too much of a wannabe to the real thing. How did it make me feel? Confident and powerful.

Dressed to the nines now is something I hate. Even my cding tends towards the informal.

So what do my favorite male clothes make me feel? Nothing at all. That's the point. they don't distract me. How do they portray me? What message do I like to think I send? Jeans, tees, and flannel shirts. That I am a nice guy, one you can feel comfortable with, but who isn't going to waste time and energy living up to who you think I should pretend to be. So there is still a bunch of pride there.

What makes me feel sexy? The same thing as always. Wearing not too much of anything but not in a sleazy way. A sort of innocent nakedness within the bounds of societal standards. With the belly I now have it doesn't really work but habit is hard and that is how I feel. Of course that mostly works when it is warm.

In the winter what makes me feel sexy is to feel cuddly. A nice warm wool sweater or flannel shirt.

Being dirty makes me feel masculine and sexy. Hard work and all that. I know it's a turn off but it reminds me of the physical power I have exerted by chopping wood or somesuch. Being freshly clean can feel sexy also in that it makes me fell cuddly.

So there are my two ways to feel sexy in male clothes. Scary and powerful or cuddly.

Andrea

[Georgia(SO)]

Andrea said

So there are my two ways to feel sexy in male clothes. Scary and powerful or cuddly

Works for me!

-g(so)

[DonnaT]

Now, my question for ya'll is this - when you are dressed to the nine's in male clothes - got your power suit on, or your dancing shoes, or your Tony Lamas (if you're from Texas) and looking and smelling fine, do you get that sense of powerful sexuality? And do you think that non-CD males get it?

Not at all, I hate ties, always have. I hated and still hate dressing to the nines as a guy. Now, in my younger days, it was muscle shirts that made me feel more sexually powerful, even though it didn't help any.

Short skirts, especially pleated skirts, and high heels make me feel sexy.

[Georgia(SO)]

Aha! Andrea nailed it -

I think that is a big issue for men with clothes. Our clothing identifies us by group, class, occupation, and sometimes even by race. We want to emphasize where it is we think we belong by our clothing. Cding says to many that we belong outside of the sexual rules which of course is very discomforting in that it makes us appear unpredictable.

Ya'll keep wondering what it is that makes people uneasy around CDs. For most reasonably open-minded people, it's not that a CD is perverted or wierd or anything else - It's this - it make you appear unpredictable. You look like a man, you look like a woman - in a world where gender is one of those givens that we don't have to think about often (sort of like gravity), this unpredictableness can be unnerving. As we all get used to it, I think there will be much less unpredictableness and therefore much less discomfort...

-g(so)

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

I agree Andrea made a great point.

this unpredictableness can be unnerving. As we all get used to it, I think there will be much less unpredictableness and therefore much less discomfort...

It's already happening. Admittedly, San Francisco is a pretty tolerant place -- and CD dressing to blend in looks fairly tame compared to some of the other folks in town. But when I've been out and about, I've been read and usually it's just a look held a little too long and then people go back to what they're doing.

And in close-up interactions, I'm sure people knew they were dealing with a guy in a dress and usually it's been no big deal. Granted most of these interactions were with sales clerks, waiters, etc. who had a financial motive for being tolerant, but there's a different between mere tolerance and friendliness, and a number of people seemed genuinely friendly. Granted, I'm sure they thought I was a very sedately-dressed/behaved drag queen, but that's another story.

[Loretta Ann]

Ya'll keep wondering what it is that makes people uneasy around CDs. For most reasonably open-minded people, it's not that a CD is perverted or wierd or anything else - It's this - it make you appear unpredictable. You look like a man, you look like a woman - in a world where gender is one of those givens that we don't have to think about often (sort of like gravity), this unpredictableness can be unnerving. As we all get used to it, I think there will be much less unpredictableness and therefore much less discomfort...

Yes it can be a problem when we attempt to make or want everything to be predictable. Life is just not like that in spite of how much we would like it to be so. It can be freeing if one can get past that.

[Georgia(SO)]

It's interesting. I don't think anyone would actually *say* they want things predictable. And to a large extent, that's probably true. But it is also true that most people want *some* things predictable.

We don't want to have to think and analyze our way through everything, every day. We want gravity to work every single time we set something down, we want to be able to assume that the boss is in charge and that the workers will more or less do what he or she says, we want to be able to quickly size someone up based on the visual cues they are giving off and to have some quick idea of how to speak and interact with them appropriately.

Much of this is appropriate and conducive to easy social functioning - you might well speak and interact differently with a man wearing a conservative suit and lace up shoes than to a man wearing cutoffs, tank top and flip-flops. Especially if they were both at the same event. It wouldn't be terribly out of line to assume that suit-guy would be more formal and that you might approach him more formally than surfer-dude.

The "unpredictability" of a man dressed as a woman (or, of course a clear FTM), and the discomfort level that this unpredictability can cause both strangers and loved ones, however, speaks volumes about how the majority of us treat men and women differently. We all think that we don't do that - but if we treated them the same (or distinguished between them solely on the formality or casualness of their clothing), then it wouldn't really matter if one looked like the other, now would it?

Me? I'm just as guilty of it as the next guy...

-georgia(so)

[Beauty]

Hi Georgia,

You are so awesome. Thanks for posting your thoughts. A lot of the GGs got kind of busy, some got tired of being challenged by men on the forum for saying their feelings, and some.. got me?

I loved your question about feeling sexual when getting dressed in mens clothes. My answer would be yes I did. I loved it when I'd have girls focus on me because I was dressed the way they thought men should be. I love getting attention from women, so putting on the right clothes and being able to get close to them and dance, touch them, smell their perfume or hair was part of the stuff I wore. If it was a suit and tie, ok. If it was a pair of nice slacks and a shirt, cool! Whatever it took to get a girls attention or to be able to flirt with them is what I wore. When a girl reacted things happened downstairs. So to me that's sexual and I dressed to get that sexual attention.

I misunderstood the unpredictability thing you said at first. I thought you were saying the TG'd community relishes in their unpredictability. I was going to agree with you.

Darla,

I don't think it's cool to call sites where CD'rs where sexy things as the dark side. It makes me ill to the stomach looking at some men who put on a high heels and short dresses (there's more.. don't get upset yet) when they look like they should be dressed their age and don't do their best to look presentable. Or when I see something like the dress or what they are wearing shouldn't be so tight it shows their beer belly or broad shoulders or many other badly dressed things men who just get turned on by donning female clothing do and post, but it's not a dark side. I love them for who they are. I love them for expressing themselves because they seem so lonely or so proud of how they look. It's almost like art. Some art makes me want to puke too.

I've said it before here. This forum is for support and we don't talk about sexual stuff, but that's only because there are so many sites that do. We don't frown on the sexuality that surrounds CD'rs.

I forget who said that CD'ing sexually was the minority of dressers (was that you). I think you need to lay down and take your temperature, whoever it was. CD'ing is far more sexual than it is expression only. I wonder if by demonizing the sexual people CD'rs feel more secure that they aren't like "them" and they are expressing their femininity? I just know usually when I read where a woman hears a CDr express their feeling about femininity women go, "Nope.. that's not it. We don't feel that way. That's your spin on what you think we're thinking."

You're right about hormones though Darla. Since I've removed the majority of T from my system I really think differently. The good thing is I have no regrets about the way I felt with T in me. I just really underestimated it's power. It controls the mind a lot more than I thought.

This was a great read. Thanks everyone.

[Virginia]

How we feel in different wardrobes?? That made me really think. I am a crossdresser, I enjoy wearing "women's" clothing, but as I have said before and Dr. Cathy Anderson's treatist has confirmed for Virginia (not speaking for anyone else) but I am (if you will excuse the definition) wallowing in the third stage of my "Magical Mystery Tour" That being that I have moved beyond the "necessity" to dress up. The dressing is great, I do love it, I do it as often as I can, but it is now simply, to me. viewed as a tool to enhance the emotional balance that I am trying my damnest to achieve between my male (anima) and female aspects.
I went to court Wednesday - clothing? I pulled from the back of my closet a very expensive suit, medium gray, with again a very expensive pair of lace up shoes (only the second time in maybe ten years that I have worn them) a long sleeve white shirt. a subdued "power tie." Did I feel sexy, or manly? I have really thought about that and the answer is NO! I have always been told that you should dress your best in court for any number of reasons, one of which it shows respect to the very foundation upon which our country is founded "of laws and not of men!" Needless to say I have some skirts, blouses and heels that would have served the same foundation of respect but................ you have got to be kidding!!!!!
Just loving my "Magical Mystery Tour!"
Virginia

[Absaroka]

Gracie maybe this is another thread but now that the testosterone is mostly gone how do you think and feel differently? To me that gets to the heart of a lot of the discussions here.

Andrea

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

I don't think it's cool to call sites where CD'rs where sexy things as the dark side.

I'm still on Vicodin so I'll be the first to admit I'm not thinking as clearly as I'd like to. Just dressing sexy isn't what I was meant to refer to. I was thinking more of the home pages I've seen of CDs who are looking for quickies and dress the part of the ho -- neither of which in itself is necessarily a problem, but what's problematic is usually either they're married or their partners are. An acquaintance of mine went through this and other self-destructive behavior, which she refers to her "dark side" period and the phrase sprang to mind when I was looking for an example of a more exhibionistic CD.

I wonder if by demonizing the sexual people CD'rs feel more secure that they aren't like "them" and they are expressing their femininity?

I'm sure many "respectable" CDs do feel that way. But it's hardly unique to the TG community. The gay/lesbian community has struggled with the issue of "sexuality vs. respectability" for years. Like it or not, it's an issue. For example, during the controversy over gay marriage here in San Francisco, the opponents didn't show footage of happy couples, they showed footage of the more "adventurous" parts of the Gay Pride parade as an example of "who those people really are."

Frankly I don't care what someone does in their bedroom, nor do I think we need to be puritanical. The "no sex please, we're transgendered" stance of several TG/CD organizations strikes me as not only silly, but counterproductive, for the reasons you mentioned. And as I mentioned earlier, dressing is sometimes sexual for me personally. But we do need to acknowledge that acts in public do have consequences. The irony is I suspect many of the CDs I'm referring to would be horrified if their wife or daughter posted similar pictures because of the impact it was have on their family's image.

[Beauty]

Hi Darla,

We are pretty close in our thinking. I just don't think it's cool to talk about anyone in a negative light that I don't know their situation.

There are far more hetero men who are cheating online than CDrs. Men who have sexual pictures of themselves online. I just don't want to judge anyone, TG'd, gay or straight who is being who they want to be.

Without a doubt some are cheating, some are deviants, some are lonely in their marriages or relationships, but that spans the whole sexual community. It doesn't just lie in our TG'd community.

I'm not jumping up and down and doing cartwheels when I accidentally visit a site that I think is going to have good info or I'm just looking at other transgendered people and find one that makes me want to puke. I wish that everyone could look like and be as classy as Stef, for instance, but that's just not going to happen all time.

I'm agreeing with you more than I'm disagreeing with you, but I just didn't think it was fair to call another lifestyle the dark side. I'm sure lots of people think of the entire TG'd umbrella as the dark side and we know lots of good people. There are good people in almost all the scenes out there. (not anything that involves abuse though)

Thanks for explaining more. I hope your leg is doing fine btw.

Andrea. I've decided not to discuss my TS path on the board, but I'd be happy to talk to you about in a PM.