Stalemate ?

[Amanda Barber]

Amanda, what a great idea! I should pitch 24 years of marriage. Now if can just figure out how to make this all her fault. Tekla you are right this is not a good place to be. I hope younger TV/CD will not repeat the same dumb mistakes many of us older folks have. I'm still amazed that this went 23 years without me being caught or outing myself somehow. I wonder if it will ever be common for Trans of all types to be public? It feels like the last big taboo.

She doesn't accept you. You've lied for 23 years. what marriage is there to save? You have the right to be who you are in your own home. She doesn't have the right to stop that. She also has the right to know who is living in her home. Anything less is just roommates.

[SilverLady(SO)]

Chill out, girls, and relax.

Contrary to what you just said, Amanda, Jill's marriage may not be over, and it can be 'saved' . . . but both parties have to want to work together and reach that mutual goal. Not easy, but it is possible.

Also, the wife *does* have the right to not accept "Jill" in her home, and she *does* have the right to stop that . . . after all, that is her home, too, and don't you or anyone else ever forget that!! This is not "all about you, the CD" but, rather, "all about us . . . the GG, the GM, *and* the CD aspect." It is supposed to be a partnership, with mutual trust and honesty.


Jill, while it's going to be hard, you are going to have to give your wife time to accept this part of you . . . if she can accept this, that is. I would like to think that if the two of you were to stop, take a long hard look at where you are today in your marriage, and how you got there (through hard work and compromise by both parties), and what you both would like to see in the relationship and all its aspects (including 'Jill') in the future, that maybe you can start over, in a manner of speaking?

Although it might be extremely difficult, you and your wife need to sit down and have a heart-to-heart conversation. No yelling, no screaming - just talking. Both of you need to be openly and honestly talking about your thoughts and feelings. Talk with each other, not to each other, and actually listen to what the other person is saying. Hopefully you will be able to reach an amicable compromise, or boundaries, if you will, about what Jill can/cannot do, when, and where, and how. You both must remember that compromise is a 2-way street, with equal give-and-take from both parties. Do not - I repeat, do NOT issue any ultimatums, nor do you give in to any!! Hopefully, these boundaries can be amended as comfort zones increase. Remember our motto: Baby steps, honey, baby steps.

Above all, every CD must remember that the GG has the right to have their man present, too!! They have the right to not accept or even tolerate the CD aspect, in this case, Jill. The GG has the right to NOT feel guilty, ashamed, or even embarrassed because of their feelings. In addition, the CD does NOT have the right to make the GG feel guilty, or ashamed, or embarrassed for having those feelings, either, because the GG's feelings are very real. Not every GG is going to accept, tolerate, or even participate with their CD partner - and that is okay, too!!

Jill, I wish you and your wife the best of luck and hard work to save your marriage . . . if it is meant to be, then it will be.

Do keep us posted, hon.



- SL

[Lydia]

Hi Jill

Sage advice from Silver Lady. The only thing I can add to it is that we should all be optimistic. Judging from the tone of your original post in this thread, I really think there has been progress. A baby step, but in the right direction - the direction of mutual compromise. Good communication is another key.

"Don't give up the ship."

Hugs,

Lydia

[SilverLady(SO)]

I was in the process of editing my last post when Lydia posted . . . because I realized that Amanda was incorrectly presuming that Jill's marriage was "over" . . . and I also want to thank Lydia for her 'sage advice' comment, but I still want to say this:

As a reminder, this is what Jill originally posted:

... She absolutely does not want to see me in any women's cloths at all! I told her that I had been dressing when she was out of the house but was always careful about when she would be home. My question: is this a workable solution?

Jill, while it's going to be hard, you are going to have to give your wife time to accept this part of you . . . if she can accept this, that is . . . and it appears that she is trying to, and that is a very good thing.

You have been given some very excellent tips from almost everyone and what has, or has not, worked for them, and I expected nothing less.

Jill, I wish you and your wife the best of luck . . . continue with the compromises, and always be honest with her . . . and yourself.

*Big Hugs*

- SL

[Amanda Barber]

Baby steps only enabe bigotry and justify discrimination by allowing the person with the problem to control how they will discriminate and how they will engage in controling and isolating behavior.

No one can force acceptance, but not accepting HAS to have concequenses, often the seperating oneself from the unhealthy infuences in ones life. Often non-accepting is a very nice word for a very ugly thing. discrimination against gender identity is no less than discrimination against race.

Above all, every CD must remember that the GG has the right to have their man present, too!!"

Sorry this is wrong and is very close to the opinion taken in "SO's bill of rights"

on the SO's bill of rights:


1: "we have the right to know about our husbands crossdressing."
Yes definatly

2: "we have the right to open and honest comunication with our husbands."
Yes definatly

3: "we have the right not to be pushed to "accept" things before we have had time to learn about them and get comfortable with them."
Here it is starting to go downhill. Read fast and its not about your comfort level. Sorry, you can't drag your feet learning until you are comfortable.

4: "We have a right to our husbands as men, the men we married".
Um, no.

5: "We have a right to our husbands masculine bodies."
This is so far out of line its hard to even start. You have "rights" to anothers human beings body?

6: "we have the right to support groups for ourselves that support our own well being."
Nothing wrong with that

7: "we have the right to support groups for our husbannds that encourage their feminine development without denigrating healthy masculinity."
Define denigrating, define healthy and their had better be lisenced mental health professionals and or councelors making those definitions.

8: "we have the right to not be mocked and demeaned by sexually explicit or otherwise offencive conversation, dress and behaviour at group meetings."
Absolutly, until any feminine clothing is deamed offencive, then its a issue.

9: "we have the right to not be pressured to attend group gathering at public places, nightclubs or other places that pose security risks."
The fact is that you have the right not to pressured to attend public gatherings without the additional modifiers.

10: "we have the right to our own personal clothes, shoes , makeup that you can't use or wear just because we are not at home."

#10 shouldn't even be needed. don't be a sneak theif.

11: "we have the right to our own personal time to get in touch with our own feminity, personal growth and persue creative projects."
Yup.

12: "we have the right to expect local, regional and national gender orginizations and conventions to fully support and promote these rights
in their programs and policies."
Um, no. Not until they are reexamined and rewritten.

[Jill S]

Wow ! I sure didn't mean to start all that. I do appreciate all the advice, even Amanda's. Opinions from the edge have a way of becoming main stream over time. I really don't think our marriage is falling apart. As for my keeping this secret I have no excuses. Oddly she has not said anything about the lie or trust broken. I think she is more scared than hateful over the whole thing. I have thought about telling her I'm dressing up for this annual Halloween party we always go to but her seeing me dressed and out in public at the same time may add to the stress for us both.

[Melyssa Anne]

Amanda--

I take issue with some of your comments and your general attitude. I may be reading your responses all wrong, but there seems to be a lot of bitterness in your comments.

I will respond to items 3, 4,and 5. Lets keep it non-emotional for a minute. Marriage is a contract. There are expectations and representations that are made at the marriage. If the cross-dressing was not in the open at that time - there could be what would be considered a degree of fraud in letting the wife know years afterwards that things aren't as they were represented. Items 3, 4, and 5 all would be affected by that.

Now when that happens in business, there are typically two outcomes -- one is a dissoultion of the relationship (which is evidently what you maintain these two should pursue) or there is a re-negotiation based on the reality -- which is what is being pursued at this point by them and along the lines that Silver Lady so eloquently provided advice. If you have had a good relationahip for many years in business (or in marriage), you don't automatically throw it away -- you try to work things out. And if you were the one that was being "fraudulent" then it is expected that you are the one that needs to bend more. And just like in business, that may involve taking things slowly--thus baby steps.

The position you have taken is very one-sided -- and does not allow for anything but selfish actions to be taken.

I hope I am misunderstanding your position -- becasue if that is truly your position, it leads to a lot of loneliness in the long run.

[CJ]

Hi all,

As Gracie used to say, "Is it me or is it getting a little hot in this room?"

Amanda wrote: Baby steps only enable bigotry and justify discrimination by allowing the person with the problem to control how they will discriminate and how they will engage in controlling and isolating behavior.

Amanda, whatever else may be said of baby steps, I'm not sure that "enabling bigotry" and "justifying discrimination" are the only things they lead to. As Melyssa Anne (and others) pointed out, a relationship is a two-way street and I think it's definitely the case that an SO can also be made to feel isolated and controlled by the revelation that her DH is a crossdresser as well as by the behaviour of her DH once his "secret" is out in the open.

I understand, Amanda, your concerns about bigotry and discrimination. In fact, I most certainly share them. But are they justified in a case such as Jill's? I'm not so sure. Discrimination based on gender identity is an a priori thing; the bigotry is already there, in the mind of the person engaging (or about to engage) in discrimination. It's not something that develops suddenly as a result of changes in circumstance.

Let's use the example of race, just because you, yourself, brought it up. If, during all your married life, you assumed--nay, you knew-- that your wife was, say, African-American (regardless of your own ethnic background) and then, one fine day, she comes up to you and says, "Honey, I have a confession to make, a deep, dark secret I need to tell you..." as she proceeds to remove her African-American bodysuit, revealing that she's really, truly, essentially, Caucasian, continuing, "I'm not Black; I'm White... please don't hate me." Now, assuming you're not a bigot, Amanda, and assuming you are, indeed, taken aback by this turn of events, would your hesitation, anger, and disorientation stem from the fact that your wife is Caucasian rather than African-American or, rather, from the fact that she's somehow hidden her "true self" from you for so long? Here, you have to be careful how you answer because there are people out there who will jump at you with accusations of racism, discrimination, and bigotry if you manifest an attitude that is even a tiny shade less than total acceptance of your new situation. And, just to be clear about it, this is your new situation: you are suddenly partnered to a person different in some fundamental way from what you thought was the case when you wed her all those years ago. Set aside, for the moment, all the feelings of betrayal at having been lied to for all those years, all the anger, all the sorrow at the realization that you just spent so many years sharing your life with someone who, in the end, turns out to be more of a stranger than you can imagine. Set all this aside, because you must; you first have to focus on all the accusations suddenly flying in your direction regarding your inability or unwillingness to embrace this situation completely or wholeheartedly. Remember, we've already established that you're not a bigot. No, you simply just discovered that the person you married is really someone else. Rod Serling himself couldn't have come up with a more poignant plot for a Twilight Zone episode.

People might say to you, "well, it shouldn't matter; after all, it's your wife's heart and mind and soul that you've come to love and appreciate; her sense of humour; her way of falling in love with stray cats; her sometimes "cute," sometimes annoying diffidence; her habit of putting a little red heart sticker on the notes she leaves you; etc., etc.--none of this changes with the revelation that she's Caucasian." Well, the people that say this to you are somewhat naïve about certain emotional and psychological realities. In fact, from the moment you find out you've been lied to all this time, everything changes. No need to bring in racism and discrimination; your life is now not only different from what you thought it was, it's also different from what you formerly imagined it could be. If you vowed to spend the rest of your life (and even if you didn't) with Person A and discover some years later, well into that union, that Person A is really Person B, and if you have no desire to be railroaded by whomever says you should (including Person B) into accepting that new state of affairs (even though you may be willing to evaluate your options at your own pace and rhythm), then your skittishness is quite understandable and shouldn't be confused with discrimination on your part against people who share characteristics with Person B.

Having said this, I agree with you, Amanda, that there is a good reason to keep an eye out for discrimination against transgendered individuals. But we need to look for it in the public sphere: in the workplace; in bars, clubs, and restaurants; in the dealings of government agencies with ordinary citizens (because we are, after all, ordinary citizens, regardless of our gender identity); even in the streets, as we take our evening strolls.

But none of this is what Jill had in mind when she posted, I think. She wants to know what some of our own experiences were regarding the possibilities of an enhanced, more truthful and honest, relationship with an SO once that SO is "in the know." And that, of course, admits of many answers... including, possibly, separation. But separation isn't the only, nor the best, one. I think the "baby steps" approach is the one best suited to the discovery of those options. When it becomes clear that baby steps don't work for either partner, other, more drastic, courses of action may need to be considered. And there's nothing wrong with that, either.

Love,
CJ

[Absaroka]

Jill started this post as a request for some sort of help in delaing with a difficult situation and it has deteriorated into a food fight about attitudes in general. Talk about self indulgence on the part of some folks here.

A professional marriage counselor would certainly not advise divorce on the strength of a few postings on a web site. True if someone posted about being in imminent physical danger they would advise that steps be taken for self preservation. But that is by no means the case here.

Maybe discussion of the SO bill off rights should have it's own thread.

To tell the truth although I have been happily married for 21 years I would not know how to begin to define what a good marriage is for someone else.

Absaroka

[ShamrockFaerie(SO)]

As an SO myself, I can only speak from that perspective.....

Amanda - you are simply wrong. For many of us (myself included), we have been lied to for the entirety of our relationships. We have very real love for our spouses. We have very real commitment to our families and children. We took vows and made promises that are very real to us. And then, all of a sudden, our worlds are turned upside down. We learn that the people we trusted the most in our lives have been lying to us. It may or may not be an issue about CDing that we have trouble accepting. For many of us, it is the LIES we have trouble accepting. Not only that, but because CDing often has sexual connotations, we feel sexually betrayed as well. Learning to accept lies and betrayal and letting one's love overcome those things is not bigotry or discrimination. It's a natural healing process that a couple MUST go through if they are to make their relationship work. Also, the "person with the problem" is the CDer. It's a problem when you are so ashamed about some aspect of your life that you lie and hide for years or decades, even from the person you supposedly love and trust the most. THAT is the underlying issue. A CDer has a lifetime to learn about and come to understand his (or her - however you want to look at it) feelings, desires, and needs. Most of the time, CDers try to use the excuse that they "thought they could control it" or they "thought it would go away" to justify not telling a spouse or partner from the beginning..... Well, if you've lived with this for years or decades and YOU still didn't fully understand or accept it, then how on God's green earth do you expect a spouse or SO to accept it immediately, before she has had time to learn about it herself? It's not fair. It's not right. And it's NOT bigotry. It's a learning curve. And I caution you, Amanda..... There are MANY forms of bigotry. Assuming that a person is prejudiced and calling them out before you know the details about what they feel and why is another form of bigotry. Calling a person "closed minded" or a bigot just because YOU don't personally understand where they are coming from is just as wrong as a person calling a CD a "faggot" or "queer". It's offensive. It's reactionary. And it's flat out wrong.

OK.... I feel a little better now.

In response to Jill's original post.... Continuing the cycle of hiding and lying is not the answer honey. If your SO does not want to participate in your CDing, that's her right, but don't go on trying to do it behind her back. It will only sow seeds of mistrust and you don't want that. Be honest about what you are doing. Do not let shame or guilt take over your life. Truthfully, there is nothing to feel shameful or guilty about, except for the lying and hiding. Your spouse has a right to know what is going on in her home, and she has a right to know what her husband is doing. Perhaps you have another "hobby" that she does not participate in.... a poker night, car repair, home remodeling.... When you want to do those things, she allows it, even if she does not participate. CDing can be the same (if you can respect her feelings about it). You would probably never insist that she assist you with car repairs or attend your poker night. Those are things you might do because you enjoy them, they make you happy, but she finds them utterly boring or uninteresting.... And that's OK. Everyone has things in their life that are just THEIRS..... But you would also never tell your wife you were going to the grocery store when you were really going out for poker night, because maybe you don't feel shame about poker night. You need to leave the shame and guilt at the door and start treating this as something about yourself that is YOURS. Own it. Be honest about it. The way YOU perceive this issue will shape and guide the way SHE sees it. If you continue to behave as though your CDing is shameful or wrong in some way, she will eventually equate it with something that causes pain, discomfort, and mistrust in your relationship. Most SOs can't live with something like that. So if she doesn't want to participate, accept that and move forward..... Find time to dress when she is not around (just like you might find time for poker night or car repairs or watching football or home remodeling or WHATEVER "your thing" is) but DON'T lie to her about it or go out of your way to hide it. And just like your spouse would want you to shower after working on the car BEFORE you greet her when she gets home, she will likely want your CDing to be done and over when she arrives. Ask for her help with this by letting her know that you'll be dressing while she's out and you'd like notice for when she'll be back so you can prepare for her arrival. This shows her that you are being considerate of her and that she won't walk into an uncomfortable situation when she gets home (like finding you covered in oil and grease from working on the car, for example).

And you never know. When Joe and I first started dating, I hated football..... Joe is an absolute football fanatic. I started watching games with him (originally just so we could spend time together on Sunday nights!), and he started explaining the game to me. Now I anxiously look forward to opening day, I dissect defensive strategy and keep up with my favorite players. It has become something we really enjoy doing together. I even play fantasy football. There's no reason why your SO can't LEARN to love and accept CDing in the same way.... It's just going to take some time before she can completely understand and embrace it. Only YOU can teach her about this aspect of you, so your attitude about it is crucial. Teach her the "formations and plays" slowly and patiently when she asks (and she WILL eventually ask questions about your CDing), and you may find that you have a "born again" CDing "fan" on your hands. Just take your time and be honest. It's always the best policy.

-Tiffany

[Emily Ann Brown]

At the risk of keeping this food fight going, we as CDs/TGs seldom understand ourselves fully, and most of us took years to accept and love all of our self........so why do we think that an SO will understand in one hour? Or one day? Or one week? Give me a break !!!!!!!!!

My EX was 100% negative and "quit or get out" from minute one. If your SO shows ANY willingness at all to tolerate this part of you, then I say you are one lucky girl and keep the lines of communication open. It ain't hopeless. Look for solutions acceptable to BOTH of you.

Emily Ann

[Sarah]

Well said Emily!

[KathyB]

If you start out with the truth you never have to go through this.

Tekla, I certainly agree with your statement, but my wife is a perfect example of it not working. I told her before we ever got intimate, she accepted it right up until we started discussing marriage. Suddenly, she didn't want a crossdresser for a husband. She thought things would change after we were married. We all know she was completely wrong.

So, I'll add a slight caveat to your original statement, while keeping the intent:

If you start out telling the truth, you should never have to go through this.

[CJ]

Hi all,

Tiffany, your post ought to be required reading for everyone! Most excellent! Thank you.

Kathy,

I'm in the same boat and I agree with you. She was okay (well, somewhat okay) with my CD'ing up until the point where things got a little more serious. It's tough.

Love,
CJ

[Valerie]

Hi Jill S. I have somewhat the same problem with my wife. She has seen me, though, at times. We talked a couple of years ago and her response at that time was she was not throwing away our time together, which had been 30 years at that time. She had found out about me quite a few years ago (15 years ago,half way in our marriage?) ,but I think she took the "out of site,out of mind" approach. Always seems to bother her,even if she said ok ( I always ask before dressing). I have thought about talking with someone (therapist maybe) but never have yet. I am not sure she would go, but it would be ok for me to go in her opinion. It is my problem to deal with. At times it can get hard to deal with and I have Valium that I take occasionally when the need arises. I have it to help with dealing with other things happening in my life,didn't start it for the CDing tho. I also have a few books on the subject that she knows about, but is still not ready to set down and talk about it. Like I said,"out of sight,out of mind". For me, I just try to deal with it the best I can and when it gets to me real bad, take a nerve pill to calm down. Not that I'm saying that is right for anybody else here, but this works for me,if only somewhat. The desire is still there along with the anxiety of it all.

To Silverlady, thanks for your post. Really to the point and makes one think about the situation.

To ShamrockFaerie(SO), thanks to you also. I found your post helpful because my wife and I have not set down to have a good talk. It was nice to hear what the "other half" has to say about our desire to cross genders. I just wish at times that she would take some time to try and understand me better. Maybe we can learn about this desire together.