Why do we believe our gender is fully or partially Feminine

[Absaroka]

when I read about the "women being gentler, more caring, less agressive" I often think of the neighborhood I lived in some years ago. It was a mostly immigrant neighborhood made up of people from a variety of countries, all busy assimilating into American Black culture. Sometime in their teens girls became less agressive than boys, or maybe it was more the case that the boys aggresion increased till it was greater than that of the girls. But when they were age 8 or 9, the girls were tough. Their prevailing attitude towards boys was that they were there so that girls would have something to hit, and at that age a fight between a boy and a girl was considered a fair fight.

After adolescence girls mostly restricted their physical violence to other girls. But I remember my eldest daughter telling me in HS that the worst fights were usually between girls.

I have rather horrified memories of a gang fight a block from our house one summer evening. Baseball bats and the like, no automatic weaponry or fatalities. Two different groups of teenage girls from two different projects, and not a boy in sight.

So I guess middle class girls get a lot of socialization also, which is why we read all this stuff about the evil queen bee in junior high.

Zari

[Anthony Simon]

I know I've said this before, that I think there's a lot of woman in me, but why that is....? I think I have to own that some of it is just so. That that's my genetic inheritance. But part of it is also I wish I was a woman, which isn't the same. And part of it also is that I've become a woman in some sense. That is to say, I believe that the dressing up has enabled the development of a certain part of my personality into a female one. This has come about through me seeing bits of other women in the woman I become when I see her in the mirror - Playing about with that and then seeing the result migrate into the "real world" when I'm not dressed up....Which probably doesn't make any sense at all.

On what Michelle says. Of course I haven't been out dressed up, but still... It's logical to aggress back to other men when they confront you. I get a lot of confrontational stuff just walking about and that's the only way a lot of the time. But then there's the provocative type of male aggression, where they really want to tie you knots, get you lost in some sort of world of mutual fighting and fighting back - and that's completely useless.

On what Zari says - in that book "Self-made man", the (female) author says women always have to "play nice", like present as nice even though they don't feel that way. So all the aggression gets buried and comes out in insidious and devious ways. My construction is that sort of repression can make the violence, when it happens, even more vicious in its underhand way.

[Michelle Miller]

But then there's the provocative type of male aggression, where they really want to tie you knots, get you lost in some sort of world of mutual fighting and fighting back - and that's completely useless.

Honestly though, I try to be nice...until it's time to not be nice.

[ArleneMcCarthy]

I know that being Arlene has made me a kinder, more gentle person. So I think that I will continue to be her 24/7, or as often as possible.

[Paula G]

As usual a lot of what Anthony says chimes with me as true. I often observe that I am such a nice person because I played Rugby, and still play music, Rugby is all about control, self control, as much, or more so than game control. When a game is this aggressive, and border line violent it is only through control of aggression that it is possible to stay out of prison. Both Rugby and Music are (for me) team activities, neither are things that are satisfying one a sols basis. To a certain extent it is necessary to subsume your will to another's for the greater good, either winning the game or putting in a good performance.

Now when I engage in these activities I dress appropriately, this helps me to take on the persona of a Musician, a Rugby Forward etc. (I will dress differently for different work activities, again this not only puts the customer at ease but also allows me to take on the appropriate persona). It stands to reason that some of this rubs off, so some of each of these different personas makes the whole that is "him". Therefore yes, being Paula does bring out the feminine aspects of my personality, and when the clothes are put back in the box, some of the personality remains.

[KimberlyS]

On what Zari says - in that book "Self-made man", the (female) author says women always have to "play nice", like present as nice even though they don't feel that way. So all the aggression gets buried and comes out in insidious and devious ways. My construction is that sort of repression can make the violence, when it happens, even more vicious in its underhand way.

Ah that explains my ex.

[Dolores(GG)]

Absaroka wrote "I have a masculine side and a feminine side, just like everyone, but it is my masculine side that likes to wear women's clothes, precisely because I am not a woman."

I like that statement.

Personally, if I really think about it, saying we are half woman or half man is silly. And I say it, I feel more masculine than femme- however I think we believe that or speak that way precisely because we are working from within the framework of a society that expects femme to be weak and demure and male to be aggressive, go getting! I consider myself more aggressive, so I tend to relate to men, but really there is no reason to. Should I accept that I am simply an aggressive female- or even more importantly- I am just a aggressive person. Period. Why is gender a part of that at all? Probably because we are so used to talking about it that it becomes the focus. But think of how the real world actually works. There are moments where we are all aggressive, or scared, or nurturing. Both men and woman make art and fight. It is silly to ascribe modes of being, constellations of emotion, to something so "fixed" as our sex.

Maybe we are all just human. The same with endless degrees of variety between us. We all dream of a post-gender society and yet we base so much of ourselves on it. It is ironic, no?

I used to really hate gender distinctions, but after dressing boys up and enjoying it so damn much, I realized that gender distinctions were part of what made that so much fun, so desirable, and really, just a powerful act in it's own right. And really, I don't know where that leaves me sometimes.

[Anne Bonny]

I like Dolores' post, we are so screwed up, and have been on the inside trying to figure all of this out. Perhaps it helps to have somebody on the outside looking in to bring a fresh perspective and we need to be open to entertain new ideas. I like how you are looking at it - we are all human, and men and women think about the same things, enjoy beauty, are artistic, can be aggressive. Interesting....

[Absaroka]

If you think about the history of the arts, all of them from music to dance to poetry to painting to architecture, most of the important figures have been men. In areas like singing or dance women may achieve parity as performers because they can do certain things better than men, like sing soprano, or because in dance there is very much the female-male yin- yang of the partners. But in the theater for example at one time women were portrayed by boys because women weren't even allowed on stage. Women being in the arts was considered a diversion, something that upper class women did as dillettantes.

Much of this of course had to do with outright sexism. But that does not change the fact that a great many men have been very artistic, and had the depth of feeling, expressiveness, and appreciation of beauty to become successful artists. There have even been women like George Sand, Andre Norton or Billy Tipton who felt they must present as men in order to be accepted artistically, although in Billy Tipton's case it was probably more a matter of being TG and not having the option of surgery. Even Willie Mae Thornton in later life often presented somewhat as a man. (She was the woman who first made Hound Dog a hit, years before Elvis)

Zari

[Anthony Simon]

I used to really hate gender distinctions, but after dressing boys up and enjoying it so damn much, I realized that gender distinctions were part of what made that so much fun, so desirable, and really, just a powerful act in it's own right. And really, I don't know where that leaves me sometimes.

Maybe it's like magic. You wave your magic wand and K'Zam, Cinderalla will go the ball. Transforming one thing into another in a fun, powerful process - and consensual to boot. So maybe that leaves you a magician (gender-neutral, you notice).

[Anne Bonny]

Perhaps it is all a croc, and yet I still believe there is more to transgenderdness than just a vulnerable susceptability in our genetic make up, more than a switch being tripped. Addictions can be powerful. pleasure centers are stimulated by endorphins - hormones that when released (via exercise - runner's high, climax/orgasm, etc) are extremely powerful substances which give us euphoria, happiness, peacefulness, relaxation. Once tripped the switch as we have found cannot be untripped. Alcoholics are always alcoholics and must abstain. Cocaine addicts will forever crave cocaine.

Men and women's brains and hormones differ, we think and act differently, and tend to be better at certain tasks depending on our sex, mental and physical. How we arrive at solutions, our drive to interact with people differs too. True we all have the same love of beauty, asthetics, art but we think about them differently as well though we may arrive at the same level of appreciation. Some art and colors are more appreciated by one sex than another as well I would suppose.

I suppose if we are transgendered then we would tend to have some of our mental processes in common with the opposite sex in our genetic make up. We know there are people who share physical characteristics of the opposite sex - the intersexed with ambiguous genitalia who may perhaps have labia and a cliterous, but a functioning penis. BUT! what is the frequency of this in the entire population? I suspect it would work out to less than a percent out of 100%. If we believe something similar occurs in our brain why would that be more frequent - say 10% of the population? I remember reading that the intersexed have understandable difficulty as their brains are probably intersexed as well, and they have trouble deciding if they want to stay as they are or have an operation to be male or female. They are a very extreme case in nature.

But Why are are we so fond of and want to experience being in someway like the opposite gender than our own? Most everyone who dresses in opposite gender clothing have any desire other than, in disgust, to discard such clothing and have put on clothing made specifically for their sex, and they feel no desire to share anything with the opposite sex, except perhaps mutual enjoyment of their differences and sexual attraction for the opposite sex. I believe Addiction is somehow different. Perhaps this is where environment comes into play - but I was not socialized in any way, no one attempted to feminize me. There are cases like the boy who had ambiguous genetalia, his mother took him to the doctor, his sex was changed to female surgically, and he was socialized or feminized in every way the belief was our gender is learned - but this was all proven wrong. The boy never wanted to wear dresses, did not like playing with dolls, never wanted to be a girl. When he reached adulthood he had his sex changed to male, met a woman and got married but he was so traumatized by his childhood that he committed suicide. THIS IS WHY I BELIEVE THERE IS MORE TO THIS THAN SOME ADDICTION!

I do believe we are transgendered therefore. There is more to this than environment, for environment to work we must have a strong internal desire to dress and to be like the opposite gender - therefore there is something in our genetics which is more important than environmental influences. So in the end I believe I truly was born this way, that I am as I am, God made me like this.

[Dolores(GG)]

I was making breakfast and really thinking about the whole male brain vs female brain thing, how we talk about genetics having to be the culprit for whatever it is we want it to be, whether its CD, or trans, or gay- whatever.

I'll start by saying that I do not believe in any way that there are things one sex can naturally do over the other. Men/women do not possess a monopoly on a specific learned skill. What? Math? Lifting heavy things? I'm sure there are body building female accountants somewhere. I think that idea only reinforces stereotypes that men do important things like being an architect and building things and women are the best at changing diapers!

Now, are our brains different? Well, obviously hormones are pumped in and out at different times, at varying levels- but there is no "I want to wear a dress" hormone that is given to little girls and accidentally given to men sometimes. Did you know that fat (adipose tissue) produces hormones? Estrogen. That's why overweight males get less body hair and boobies. But, despite the physical changes, I don't think they start wanting to do "girlie things". So I don't think that's exactly the key. It's so much more complex than that.

We are talking about our natural wiring and the environment we grow up in. So often we pick and choose where one ends and one begins. I don't think you can do that. Of all the articles and studies I have read on neurology and social conditioning and such- they can stick you in an MRI and you brain is making choices way before your conscious mind is even aware of it. You say, oh, I picked this. I have control of this. I don't think we fathom just how influenced we are by external cues and the ways our subconscious mind is processing them.

Whats the point of all this? Being bi for what feels my whole life, I can say I don't think I was born this way nor did I feel it was a choice. It is something that became. Why do we want to argue that it's genetic? I think it is fear or shame. We want to justify to others that we are powerless against it. Damn that. I am proud of who I am and how I have lived. I enjoy it and embrace it. I wont apologize by trying to compartmentalizing it. I like women and I like boys that look like women and I don't try to pick out the roots one by one to try to validate it because I don't think the true answer is available to us.

Anne said "Most everyone who dresses in opposite gender clothing have any desire other than, in disgust, to discard such clothing and have put on clothing made specifically for their sex, and they feel no desire to share anything with the opposite sex, except perhaps mutual enjoyment of their differences and sexual attraction for the opposite sex."

There might be disgust, but your ignoring the most important facets of this.
As Anthony said, Cinderella can go to the ball. The ability to change and present an idealized persona is a powerful and universal theme. It doesn't have to be an addiction, it is simply human nature and we all find ways of expressing that desire. You see cute little shy girls walking around on Halloween in slutty angel costumes. It's a thrill, it's socially sanctioned suddenly to do and act like you want. I have read many posts on here that say "When I am dressed, I am calmer, more patient...that transfers over to when I am not." Your femme persona is an outlet. We all have those outlets. It neither values or devalues it, it simply is. If anything, I am sure it makes it stronger. The fact that I do not see my partner dressed often, makes the obsession even stronger.

The fact that society has not come to fully accept it, does not change the joys of that particular expression- just complicates it with other desires. Desires to fit in, desires to play the roles we feel are assigned to us, etc. We as humans are driven by our needs to eat, sleep, procreate, socialize, and those needs clash and weave against each other in unpredictable ways.

I think people with ambiguous genitalia are dealing with several factors. Yes, the hormones. But I as a girl didn't want to dress in dresses, hated dolls...where's the explanation for that? I think that they express themselves as any other child might but the difference is that one day they don't start to grow breasts, or menstruate like everyone around them, essentially morph into what has been expected. I can see why that could drive a person to feel that their path was incorrect and change it.

*Uff* Sorry this is so long.

Finally- Anne responds to me with "To Dolores, I noted as in the responce by Anthony - if such feminizing play was consensual? (can children consent? They cannot) But children do play dress up on occasion. But Froced feminization, or feminine play is wrong. But we all know there are boys who secretly relish such play - I was one of them, and therefore I do not object discussing this if a son is caught crossdressed, they can be told it is ok, and can even be encouraged and provided feminin clothing if they desire such or merely want to explore this and knowing that you are perfectly willing to allow them to be girls is alright, where forcing or feminization are not."

Umm, I am not entirely sure what you are asking. Was the feminization I described personally consensual? Well, mine was done when I was a bit older with consenting partners. (Except for the time the little boy downstairs wanted to play house with me and asked to be the girl. I put make-up on him and even at 6 I understood the taboo and resulting thrill of it.) I disagree that children cannot consent. Obviously not in matters of sex, but I give them some credit in knowing what they want or wont do. I believe you are talking about it as a punishment? Maybe it is a bit outdated as such, since I don't hear of that happening much as a disciplinary action by parents against children anymore. Are you talking about it as when little girls beat down a little boy and drag him into a dress? How is that wrong? How is it more wrong than anything that little kids do to each other when they play? Please clarify.

[Anne Bonny]

I am reasoning as best I can from what I know and speculating, most of us here do. I do not know who is qualified - people with education, and credentials like physicians, nurses - depends on their level of education and specilization, phychiatrists, psychologists, those involved in research. So I am stating my personal beliefs and this explanation satisfies me, others are perfectly free to have their own beliefs as you do Dolores, I have no problem with that.

[Dolores(GG)]

Sorry Anne, but I think I didn't understand you, or you I. I never brought up child abuse in any context and I don't know how you got it from me.
Looking again, you asked "...if such feminizing play was consensual? (can children consent? They cannot)" I have no idea why you would assume I would abuse little boys to begin with. I said boys, ok, but in no way thought anyone would take it as my running around dressing small children to torture them. That wasn't part of the conversation, so I was confused as to how that figured in.

Secondly, I just asked you to clarify your question but I also answered that all my CD activities were with consenting partners.

[Anne Bonny]

Gosh, Dolores...I am sorry and hope you accept my apology and glad to know all is well. With the internet do we really know who we are talking to? Because our anonymity is high, and we feel safe I have always spoken freely, honestly, perhaps foolishly. My antenna went up but with the acknowledgement that I do not have enough detail, and am glad to know I misunderstood. Anne

I always like to think the best of those I am posting with, and have always been thrilled when it is a GG.