Deception.

[Loretta Ann]

There are many different reasons why we are deceptive. The picture presented in some of the posts above does not apply to every one of us, who do not live in areas that have been described. However there are places with in every locality where folk of any strip can find, where they would not be welcomed, and might well end up looking like a Swiss steak.

The intent of this thread is not to justify the need for deception, but to acknowledge and accept it, and there by include it in the package we would need to sell to others in order to find acceptance. It is definitely not intended as a vehicle to cause any guilt to any of us. It may serve to bring a fuller understanding to our community.

Our SOs are a good mirror if you will, that probably portrays a fair representation of what it would be like to achieve full acceptance. Some just can’t handle it, even with the best intentions of their partner along with the help of forums such as this.

Having said that I would like to encourage the conversations that others have going here. I find them interesting to read. Please feel free to continue.

Darlene.

"Truth is, of course, something that no one person can know, for only

the most arrogant of men would refuse to acknowledge that he is

incapable of knowing everything about the universe. Nor can one claim

to know that something is true with absolute certainty, even on a purely

physical level. The greatest minds of all kind were the first to

recognize their own fallability. It is the role humanity, then, to seek

truth through observation.

[Anita]

Hi Darlene--
I'll try an analogy here. If I really enjoyed visiting France, and had done it several times, I might want to blend in better. So I'd learn more of the language, and I'd probably dress with some clothing that I'd seen French people wear on my other trips.

Say I go shopping, and I'm trying out my language skills at the local markets. Would each shopkeeper I talk to immediately ask me if I'm a foreigner? Some might, but many would not. They probably would know I'm not French, but they would have no need to ask me exactly who I was, or where I came from. We'd just talk about the item they had for sale, and we'd have a pleasant conversation. Since I'm talking their language, they probably would treat me more like a local, without even having to think about it.

Am I hurting them in any way? Is it deception to not precisely define exactly who I am? If they asked me, I would tell them I was American.
I've nothing to hide here, But I'm not going to volunteer the information to everyone I meet, either. Part of the fun of trying on new behavior of any kind is seeing how well you can blend in without having to explain and make excuses for yourself.


That's what my outings are like when I go out dressed as a woman. I have said in posts on here, "when I go out dressed as my version of a woman," because that's just what it is. I'm not a genetic woman, and I'm also not just a guy in a dress, because I take on more female behavior and mannerisms then that.

I want to blend in as well as possible, because that's what social beings of all types like to do. I get pleased when people react to me as they would a woman. Is it because I fooled them? Not likely. I'm pleased because they're letting me know that I'm doing a good job at what I set out to do. Maybe I'm even doing such a good job that they start to wonder if I might really be a woman, and not a man.

I don't feel that it's deceiving them to let them wonder. If they ask, I'll tell. Most people don't ask.

But you bring up a good point. Even with SRS, a transwoman still feels an obligation to tell prospective romantic partners that she is not what she appears to be-- she was not born a woman. And yet she has done as much as she can on her part to make it real.

[CJ]

Hi all,

Interesting thread.

I'll side with Celia and others who say that the very definition of "deception" cannot be understood without referring to the intent behind the act. Deception has much to do with appearance (either physical or as evidenced through behaviour) and, as we all know, we don't have much control over what others may feel or think about our appearance or behaviour. Although it may not be our intention to deceive when we crossdress, some may feel they've been deceived nonetheless.

Here's where a fundamental lack of understanding about the transgendered condition surfaces in the legislator's mind. For example, here in Montreal, what I do (crossdress in public) is illegal precisely because the deceptive nature of the act is considered impersonation, something associated (erroneously) with fraud or fraudulent behaviour. The truth is, impersonation (and hence crossdressing) is only illegal if it's done with the intent to commit fraud (or a criminal act). Authorities seem unable to see the issue as being one of mental health rather than of criminal justice.

The only real deception that matters, I think, is the one that occurs when we're dishonest with our mates. If we tell her we're being completely honest with her in regards to who we are and yet we hide from her the fact that we're crossdressers, we're being deceptive in a harmful way.

Again, great topic.

Love,
CJ

[Georgia(SO)]

Can an SO jump in on this thread?

I think ya'll have identified one of the major aspects of CDing that is hard for the SOs to deal with. We know that when we put on a pair of jeans, we are just putting on clothes that were originally worn primarily by men. We don't change our names, we don't wear our hair in a masculine style and we don't present as males. Even before women were generally allowed to wear male clothing, the women who chose to were pants still presented as 100% woman (think Katherine Hepburn in the 40s).

Deception, however, is a very strong word and implies some malevolent motives. I prefer *pretending*. When we put on jeans, we are not pretending to be a man.

For the most part, it seems that ya'll are *pretending* to be women. Certainly those who have no desire to become a woman seem, at least from the outside looking in, to be pretending. For me, it is both the most confusing part - why would you want to pretend to be a woman when men make more money, have more power, etc? Or do you somehow see women as having more power?

It is *also* the part that makes it easier for me, with logic that runs along the lines of "I understand pretending. I used to play make believe when I was a kid. I understand that."

In general, I also think that taking on the personna of a woman, if you will, is what makes it difficult for society to accept CDers. We understand people who are what they look like they are. We understand uptight people, we understand the rogues, we understand butch women and fussy men. What we don't usually understand is someone who says her name is Ruth, who is wearing women's clothes and has boobs (fake or naturally enhanced by a really great bra), actually being a male named Bob underneath. Or a male named Bob who looks like and calls herself Ruth.

Standard disclaimer: I speak only from the knowledge of observing my guy and his female half and from hearing ya'll talk. No offense is intended, and if I have offended, please understand that it is unintentional.

Back to work...
georgia(so)

[Lydia]

I like Georgia's term for it: pretending. 'Deception' has so many negative connotations.

Besides, 'pretending' is more akin to what many of us do as crossdressers. So many of us dress only or primarily in private. That is not 'deception'. Is it really 'pretending'? When I come home, I almost immediately go en femme - even just partially. I am not fooling myself; I am not pretending; and certainly not deceiving myself. I am just feeling good and comfortable. Do I "feel" feminine? Perhaps. Not being female I don't really know. All I know is that I like it, and I need it.

I guess that if you feel it important to "pass" as a woman, then you are engaging in a form of deception. But I still think that word carries too much negative baggage, and 'pretending' is better.

Willy

[MelaniePeg]

On another forum called christianity.com there was a thread on crossdressing. Almost without exception the members of this board said we were attempting to deceive people when we crossdress in public. Obviously many CD's do not pass, and it is obvious to anyone that this is a man in a dress. I know many who have used this opportunity out in public to educate interested persons about our TG community. I have certainly done that many times over the years. There are times out in public with my wife or alone when I want to be seen as just another woman. In 2001 I spent 2 weeks with my wife as Melanie in Australia and New Zealand. Other than the time we spent with media persons and the TG groups in both countries, no one saw anything other than two women enjoying these countries. Most thought we were sisters and we played the part well. Was this deception? Yes, it was but we just wanted to be treated as two women.

Interesting topic!

Hugs,

Melanie

[Jamie Ann]

Deception, however, is a very strong word and implies some malevolent motives. I prefer “pretending.” [However, when women] put on jeans, we are not pretending to be a man.

For the most part, it seems that ya’ll are “pretending” to be women. Certainly those who have no desire to become a woman seem, at least from the outside looking in, to be pretending. For me, it is the most confusing part—why would you want to pretend to be a woman when men make more money, have more power, etc? Or do you somehow see women as having more power?

It is also the part that makes it easier for me, with logic that runs along the lines of “I understand pretending. I used to play make believe when I was a kid. I understand that.”

In general, I also think that taking on the persona of a woman, if you will, is what makes it difficult for society to accept CDers. We understand people who are what they look like they are. We understand uptight people, we understand the rogues, and we understand butch women and fussy men. What we don’t usually understand is someone who says her name is Ruth, who is wearing women’s clothes and has boobs (fake or naturally enhanced by a really great bra), actually being a male named Bob underneath. Or a male named Bob who looks like and calls herself Ruth.

To say that we are “pretending” to be women is true. After all, “pretending” simply means “behaving as if” and that seems undeniable. However, I think your very first sentence (in the quotation above) gets closer to the real issue, which is, “Why is a genetic male acting as if he were a woman?” Is he trying to gain some advantage? Is he trying to identify with the superior status or power of women? Is he trying to achieve a sexual turn-on? Is he just playing a child-like game? Or what? As you pointed out, women do not, on the average, make more money or have more power, so presumably we can rule that one out. As for being a sexual turn-on, that probably was true in the beginning, but let’s keep in mind that seeing a mannequin in a department store window can be a sexual turn-on for a pubescent male, so I think we can rule this one out as the main motivation for a continuing pattern of CDing—although there may be hard-core fetishists who are exceptions. For the most part, I think we can also rule out deception for the purpose of gaining some advantage. CDing is not a tactical presentation of self, aimed at out maneuvering an unsuspecting victim—at least not for most of us!

That leaves answer number four—playing a “game” of sorts—but playing a “game” of sorts still could have alternative motives. Video games are games, but for the most part I find them boring, and therefore I do not play them. Why is CDing interesting? When a child dresses up like a cowboy and seems to enjoy it immensely, it seems fair to say that this activity is allowing him to express feelings that he really does have. Why can’t we impute this same innocent motivation to a male named Bob who looks like and calls herself Ruth?

[Loretta Ann]

Thank you for your contribution Georgia(SO) (it is much appreciated) Yes SOs are most welcome to contribute to this thread. Thank you all to every one else for their contributions as well. Please feel free to continue as led to?

May I remind every one the intent of this thread is not so much to justify our need to pretend and/or deceive among ourselves, but is focused on justifying who and what we are to society in order to find acceptance.

Darlene.

[Celia]

A couple of thoughts here . . .

Of the things I typically wear to the office, the shoes I wear are women's, the socks are women's, the belt is a women's belt, the watch on my wrist is a women's watch, the underwear are women's, the pearl stud earrings . . . you make the call. The pants and shirt are men's, but that about covers that. Most of these things are androgynous, though the underwear is pretty unequivocal and the watch (which my long sleeve hides) is quite feminine. I haven't come out to my coworkers, no one refers to me as Celia, everyone refers to me by my given, masculine name, and, if I'm pretending, it's to no one but myself. This is pretty much my typical state of dress, and it is crossdressing. It's fairly rare for me to dress in a way that people would easily determine to be feminine, and even more rare for me to do so in public with hopes of passing.

Pretending is a little boy who would rather play with his sister's dolls than his action figures but goes ahead and plays with his GI Joe because doing what he would prefer to do makes daddy upset. Pretending is a man who talks football, baseball, and basketball because, although these have never interested him, people suggest he's kind of "soft" when he talks about the soaps he greatly prefers to watch. Gender is often a game of pretend, even when we don't cross boundaries.

-Celia

[Elizabeth]

Hi girls,

This is an interesting thread and I have given this subject condsiderable thought. First, I beleive that almost everyone commits deception every day. You don't see people at the check out line getting out thier creditcard and say "you realize I am in debt way over my head, I have no cash, and only make my minumum payments, I really should not be charging anything else".

Instead, people continue to live beyond thier means, make only minimum payments, and instead pretend they make way more money than they really do. They lease cars instead of buying them so they can drive a car that they would not be able to drive if they had to buy it.

These are just a few examples, but people decieve everyone around them about who they are on a continual basis about all kinds of things. They buy sports gear to make people beleive they partipate in sports they don't. They buy expensive running shoes to preseent a certain image. They pay insane amounts of money they don't really have to buy "Prada" when you could buy a product just as good for far less, just to decieve us abouit who they are.

People will go out in public or in tbe internet and lie about thier marrital status. They will lie about health conditions, or doing drugs. It would seem that no one is who they appear to be, so why should crossdressers be any different?

The biggest deception I ever did was going around in men's clothes pretending I was a typical male, when in reality I never felt like that on the inside. I was always acting, trying to pass myself off as a typical alpha male, when I knew all along I was transsexual and really wanted to be a woman. Continually worried I would be discovered.

So now I dress 24/7, but I am far from passable. I am clearly a man in a dress. But I do not see how being passible would change who I am, or my intentions. I feel that dressing en femme is being honest. It is telling the world "this is who I really am".

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Loretta Ann]

Elizabeth wrote;

So now I dress 24/7, but I am far from passable. I am clearly a man in a dress. But I do not see how being passable would change who I am, or my intentions. I feel that dressing en femme is being honest. It is telling the world "this is who I really am".

And I believe that is why you have less trouble being accepted than others. If more of us were like you I believe we would stand a better chance of being accepted. It is closer in line to what women have achieved. I do not see any attempt by you to pass yourself off as someone you are not by your actions. If I ever decide to dress in public it well need to be like you do it. I believe you are doing it right.

The rest of your post appears to be in direct conflict with the approach you have taken to your need to be who you are. I am unable to connect it with our situation. For example you would not see anyone at the check out line getting out their credit card and saying. "You realize who I am? I am in debt way over my head; I have no cash, and only make my minimum payments. Resulting in any chance of being taken out and being made to look like a Swiss steak.

Your approach to cross-dressing does not leave any room for that kind of thing to happen. It eliminates or lessens the element of fear which (I believe) is the driving force (for many) that causes some of us to attempt to misrepresent ourselves. It is like wise the driving force that keeps many of us in the closet.

As much as we may like to wish it were different the fact remains that we are not totally and never will be a woman. We are some where in between and that is reality like it or not. And a representation of anything other than that (to society) which by the way includes our SOs is deceitful. (It is not being honest.)

Darlene.

[Estefania]

As much as we may like to wish it were different the fact remains that we are not totally and never will be a woman. We are some where in between and that is reality like it or not. And a representation of anything other than that (to society) which by the way includes our SOs is deceitful. (It is not being honest.)

Darlene, taking things uder that perspective, and to that extreme, if it is deceitful.... so be it.

I still don't see how going out and wanting to be seen as any other woman against wanting to be accepted as a man wearing women's clothes is hurting ourselves. But I guess that it would depend on what is your motivation to CD in the first place. For those who CD and would like to be accepted by who they really are, maybe you are right, and their own "sucess" in being accepted as females (not being one) can hurt their own purpose. (Unless they really believe they are females, which would be a case for TS folks) But at least personally, when I go out, I want to be accepted for what I represent, not for who I am, and that is totally different. I assume the role of a woman, I don't become one. My acceptance means that I'm good representing my role, both in appareance and in 'performance'. And that is satisfactory enough for me. (Just notice that this is really disecting my view on going out and such, taking away emotions).

You mentioned again acceptance. Yes, lots of folks would love to have that acceptance. (of being able to be accepted as CD's by society). But that is not the kind of acceptance everybody wants. You mention time and time again our "effort to sell that package to society". You may be mistaking the means with the goal itself. (The goal being about to experience simple things in life as a "normal" woman would, with the means needed to do so as in having to look as a "normal" woman)

Jan... Can I change what I said from "There are no points or scales to measure how much of a CD you are" to "There are no points or scales to measure how REAL of a CD you are". ? There are no better CD's or worse CD's based on how far have you taken your CDing. (In other words, a CD who may be out and about is not a better CD than one who is just planning his first outing)

[Jan W]

Jan... Can I change what I said from "There are no points or scales to measure how much of a CD you are" to "There are no points or scales to measure how REAL of a CD you are". ? There are no better CD's or worse CD's based on how far have you taken your CDing. (In other words, a CD who may be out and about is not a better CD than one who is just planning his first outing)

Yes Gaby, this is exactly how I feel things to be. While there is varying lengths we can go to regarding our dressing/presenting we are all similar in our desire to acknowledge our feminine side.

Do I feel I am being deceitful when presenting as a woman in public? - no I don't but some could argue that I am attempting to deceive those around me into believing I am something I am not. By this definition deceit does come into play but if no one is hurt by this deceit what is the problem?

[Dixie Darling]

Darlene,

Is it REALLY deception? When women dress in what used to be traditionally men's clothing, most of them will tell you that they do so for comfort. True, they aren't trying to pass themselves off as the opposite gender and as a general rule most will be wearing some degree of makeup. Sometimes it's little more than nail polish, a slight amount of eye makeup, maybe even a near-neutral shade of lipstick, but it's still there. And (sometimes due to necessity) most will be wearing a bra, so it's obvious that they are females. The thing here is that they are females and they're not trying to disguise that fact. But the MAIN point here is that they have no need to be embarrassed by the fact that they're wearing what was once considered to be clothing that is of the male persuasion.

On the other hand - and in my opinion this is the primary reason that crossdressers tend to pass themselves off as female - crossdressing is so blatently misunderstood by society that there is still the stigma out there that any man who wants to dress in feminine clothes is gay. And even though gays are somewhat accepted by some of the public at this point in time, there are those who disapprove and will take any opportunity to ridicule a gay person if the opportunity presents itself. Hence the heterosexual crossdresser attempts to be convincing as a female to avoid any such confrontations and possibly eve violent reactions.

Getting back to the comfort issue, just as many females are comfortable in male oriented clothing, so are crossdressers in female attire. The difference is that a female doensn't have to be on the alert for someone poking fun of her or making leud remarks simply because she's wearing clothes that obviously aren't feminine in nature. The opposite is true for the average crossdresser so he must take care to pass as well as he possibly can to "blend in" with the people on the street. Now there are, of course, those who don't even ATTEMPT to pass in public and they do so by their own choosing. These are the brave souls out there who are pioneering the way for men's right to wear whatever they find to be comfortable just like the women's movement did in past years.

This isn't meant to contest your post, but rather to offer my own opinion as to why crossdressers try to pass in public. The way I see it, it's not to decieve, but rather to avoid un-necessary confrontations that serve no purpose other than an attempt to ridicule or embarrass them.

Dixie

[Allena]

Perhaps these pages fit with this conversation
http://www.annelawrence.com/agfaqs.html
http://www.annelawrence.com/newintroagp.html

I recently discoved these and have found them very interesting and valuable to me, although I suppose there are some here who have already read this.

Well, I'm not understanding how to post links.
I click the 'URL' button once,
I get [ url ] with my curser on the LEFT side of it.
I move my cursor to the right side and past in the url,
then I click the *URL button once more to close the tags.
With all this I do not get live link
Can someone fix that for me?
Thanks

Never mind!
I just figured out I had BBcode switched off!