Articulating the inarticulate

[Jessica_Karen]

Hi, Georgia (SO),

I was really pleased to see your response. I know none of us can really speak for everyone in our sex, but I was glad to see such a thoughtful response from your point of view. How cruel of your ex to turn away from you because of your weight. Yes, I imagine you do know how many of us feel when a loved one turns away. I think the parallel is an apt one.

I was struck, too, (as was Cathy) with another observation you made:

When he comes over to the female side, well, there's this lack of ... uh... balance in the room.

This makes a lot of sense to me...and helps explain the...for lack of a better word...instinctual drawing back that I have seen on my wife's face. (And, as I think I said earlier, this reaction has nothing to her seeing me dressed. She hasn't. She hasn't even seen any of my clothes. Nothing.) For her, it's just knowing about me that causes it...seeing me online at this forum... checking my email...(or even worse, chatting with someone in real time)...that's enough.

You say:

I am afraid that I am probably as guilty of closing my eyes, physically drawing back from my sweetie as Jessica-Karen's SO. And I try to hide it, just as she does, for my sweetie's sake...OTOH, I *am* trying because I *do* love him...That's gotta count for something in making him *feel* loved.

Yes, it does count for something...and I know that's what my wife is trying to do, too. I know it...but every time her face closes over, I sense what she is feeling. I sense the truth: that she is trying to love me...but she can't. And I don't know what hurts more: knowing that I am, in her eyes, unloveable, or knowing that I cause her so much pain.

I know that you have somehow reached the stage where you do not find your husband disgusting or deviant, rather that you are trying to find a comfortable way of relating to him "when he's wearing lipstick..." that it's a situation that leaves you feeling "slightly uneasy." I can certainly see how it would...because he looks like a different person. And somewhere in the back of your mind, there could well be the niggling thought (no matter how hard you try to suppress it) that maybe he is different. I am sure this is part of my wife's problem. I hid my CDing from her for many years...mostly because of a chance remark she made shortly after we were married. (I wanted to tell her, but feared her reaction. Remember, this was almost 30 years ago. There was no information. No internet support groups. Nothing...just a lingering memory of visits to a psychiatrist that left me feeling ashamed and guilty. So I kept quiet.) When I finally told her, I told her the truth as best I could, but it came out badly. Now she sees me as this different person...not the person she married. Well, I'm not a different person...but telling her that doesn't change her feelings. She feels I lied to her, so there is a sense that I have somehow violated a trust.

On the other hand, if not telling her about this was a lie, it was a lie of omission. Kept secret because I feared the very reaction I got. In fact, I feared much worse. I feared she would be so angry and so disgusted that not only would the marriage fall apart, but that she would take every opportunity to revenge herself on me by spreading my guilty and disgusting secret among all her friends. How better to avoid having to shoulder any of the blame for a failed marriage? No one would probe any deeper than the obvious: "Poor woman, married to a secret pervert all those years. Well, at least she got the house and half his pension. Serves him right, too. I hope he loses his job."

It could easily have happened that way. Frankly, I was surprised it didn't. So you can see why I kept the secret as long as I did. I don't think I am unusual in this, though as others will point out (quite rightly) the longer you keep the secret, the harder it is on your partner when it finally does come out.

So if I have violated her trust, I accept my share of the blame. But I wish she could understand that I kept this, the deepest, darkest and potentially the most damaging of my secrets, because she had not earned mine. And that is an issue that she will never acknowledge, and a truth, I would be prepared to guarantee, her friends will never hear.

I take comfort in Elizabeth's description of her relationship with Raven (SO). I know (in part) of the struggle she went through to get to this stage in her life. For me, I am still clinging to the hope that my own relationship can somehow be repaired. I know my wife wants this, too. But to bring this rambling letter back to the main point: I fear that there is something "hard wired" into her brain that simply won't let her accept me as I am, now that she knows. In fact, now that I think of it, maybe this inability to accept me as I am lays at the heart of the problems that have plagued the relationship from the beginning. Certainly she has never shied away from letting me know that I am a man of many shortcomings. Maybe that's why I never told her the whole truth. Maybe at some pre-conscious level, she suspected all along.

[Georgia(SO)]

Karen,

There just aren't any words that will help here, so I'm just sending you a big hug....

-g

[Loretta Ann]

It is our choice how we choose to let society mold us. We can say that society says this, or says that, but society is just an illusion. I mean, who is society? It is a bunch of people just like you and me, who go home to thier homes every night, eat dinner and complain about how rude everyone else is. Society is just something in our heads and we can respond to it any way we choose.

Me, Raven(SO), my children, my friends, my children's friends, all seem to be able to realize that one can just ignore what we percieve as society's judgements. That is the whole key to being "out". If someone stares are me, I stare back until they are embarassed and have to look away. It changes the entire dichotomy when we ignore society's unwritten rules.

In the end, if one uses good judgement, there is really nothing society can do you and all anyone else can do, is to not like you. My feeling on this is simple. Anyone who does not like me, or someone who accepts me how I am, just because of what I am, is probably not the kind of person I want to call a friend anyway. Anyone else? Well, their feelings come first, right after mine.

Very very well said Elizabeth. You have come a very long ways girl.

[Beauty]

Hi Karen,

Your post was so beautiful. I really feel for you and I think you are wonderful for expressing how you feel about the turmoil you are going through.

I wish you the best. I think your wife has a beautiful husband. I'm totally floored by your last post.

[Virginia]

Karen,
You know that we, you and I, are going through pretty much the same thing and I know that you know that Georgia is a shining exception to the rule. I guess from my brief history in dealing with crossdressing, one of the great truths that stand out is: "GG's just don't get it." Now that being said there are always exceptions, as I said Georgia is one and there are other GG's on this forum - however, even Georgia continues to struggle with it. I would not even begin to put words in Elizabeth's mouth as to how and why she and Raven seem to have such a great relatinship!
Yes you are right about not telling the SO at first they feel totlally betrayed that you had a secret - almost any secret that you refused to share with them, then comes the questions, about transistioning, or are you gay, then once past that - comes the 2x4 right between the eyes! MY GOD MY husband wears women's clothes and and and enjoys it! After that reality sets in the individual GG's whole life "up bringing" begins to consider this new, totally unknown, alien aspect that has been thrust into her life and how she will handle it will be (my considered opinion) from her and her alone. Now she may or may not seek outside input, but everything she has ever known or been taught has now been confronted with soMething that none of her "education" to this point in her life prepared her for (in most instances). If and it is the biggest IF, she is willing to open her mind at least to trying to learn about it shows one or two things or both and if both you have a real treasure in her. One, she loves you enough to want to learn and hopefully share in this previously unknown aspect of her "man," and Two: she subscribes to my favorite Bible verse: "Wisdom is the principle thing - therefore get wisdom, BUT with all thy getting GET UNDERSTANDING!"
My wife - unfortunately, took the other path - no desire to learn, ask questions, share, nothing, just divorce.
So each of us lives with our gift as best we can, shared or kept in a closet, it matters little in the end to virtully anyone but us individually. We must all take that fateful step, we all know that in the end we are responsible for our own happiness. Once a crossdresser always a crossdresser, but when push comes to shove, each of us have to stand in front of that big mirror look at that woman looking back at us and make the ultimate determination: "Just how important is SHE in your life?"
Good luck to those of my sisters who have yet to face that! I can only hope and pray for you that you make the right decision for you!
Love you all,
Virginia

[Jessica_Karen]

Oh, Virginia, you write with such power and understanding! How my heart goes out to you! You seem to have such strength in yourself...I am simply in awe. I don't know if I have that in me or not. (Maybe because my wife has not forced the issue quite the same way as yours has? I don't know.)

I do know that yours is a difficult and painful journey...no, that's not quite right...I want to say ours is a difficult and painful journey, made all the more difficult by the realization that it must be travelled alone, without the person we most value in our lives by our side. Worse than that, it is a journey we must travel while the person we love turns against us, becomes our enemy, and who may seek to hurt us in any way she can. She will tell her friends. She will take the house, the pension, and most especially, if she can, the children and turn them against us, too.

And what will we be left with? A life in tatters. A half life, lived in shadow and shame, and poverty. This is the life I see before me, even though my every instinct tells me that leaving this relationship behind is the thing that I must do. Those who have walked this path before us (and they are legion) tell us that their lives are the better for it. For both our sakes, I hope you can find the courage. For both our sakes, I hope what they say is true.

I'm sending you my love. May it be, like Galadriel's gift to Frodo, a light for you in dark places.

Karen

[Virginia]

Karen, Honey that is exactly what "the Gift" is about. Care and concern for our fellow human beings. As I think I posted somewhere else on this forum. I tried once more, last week to get her to come back, since she had another seizure and it is not (in my opinion) fair to her 80+ old parents to have to drive her around town - (If you had ever seen her father drive - that in itself is one of the scariest things I have witnessed!) Anyway, she basically said she just can not deal with the crossdressing, which leads me to believe that granted she may not be able to deal with it, but then she would have to deal with the humilitation she would endure (as I am sure she has told everyone she knows as her father a retired minister is on call for at least three churches in the area). She fears everyone saying "Unbelievable, she took that crossdressing freak back! - can you believe it!" I think that is where she is at, that coupled with the fact that when she was born they never cut the umbilical cord. I have never seen anyone as close to their mother is she is to hers! Anyway, in my round about way what I am saying is that as I sit here visiting with you and my sisters, I smell the faint trace of "White Diamonds" perfume, I see my pink finger nails pounding on these keys, I see the lip stick on my coffee cup, my bracelets gently scraping the desk. I feel the slight tightness of my skirt and pantyhose and my whole being is just totally at peace with the world!
Love you girls!
Virginia

[Loretta Ann]

Hi Karen,

I have gone through this thread and collected different things you have said that have caught my eye. They are as follows:

Yet it is hard to tear apart a relationship that has lasted more than half our lives,

You are right it is the the hardest you might go through.

I don't know what hurts more knowing that I am, in her eyes, unlovable, or knowing that I cause her so much pain.

Good grief... what does that say for ones self worth?

"Poor woman, married to a secret pervert all those years. Well, at least she got the house and half his pension. Serves him right, too. I hope he loses his job.

So you allow that to keep you prisoner? Completely at her mercy?

Certainly she has never shied away from letting me know that I am a man of many shortcomings. Maybe that's why I never told her the whole truth. Maybe at some preconscious level, she suspected all along.

Perhaps the reason for that is because she needs to be the one who is in control.

I want to say ours is a difficult and painful journey, made all the more difficult by the realization that it must be travelled alone, without the person we most value in our lives by our side. Worse than that, it is a journey we must travel while the person we love turns against us, becomes our enemy, and who may seek to hurt us in any way she can. She will tell her friends. She will take the house, the pension, and most especially, if she can, the children and turn them against us, too.
And what will we be left with? A life in tatters. A half life, lived in shadow and shame, and poverty. This is the life I see before me, even though my every instinct tells me that leaving this relationship behind is the thing that I must do.

You are poor now (being forced to) live a half life as it is.

Those who have walked this path before us (and they are legion) tell us that their lives are the better for it. For both our sakes, I hope you can find the courage. For both our sakes, I hope what they say is true.

You have stated somewhere in this thread that you hope your relationship can be repaired. That is the kind of thinking that has kept you where you are for so long. Restored to what? It never was as it should be, do you mean you want more of what you have had? More of the same? What you need is something new; whether that includes your wife or not. The old has not brought you happiness, that is why people like Elizabeth and myself have found something better. That we would not be willing to exchange for the life we once had.

And you are the only one who can take charge of that happening. Your mind set needs to be that something new has to happen. That is what will drive you to a better life. And like I said that may or may not include your wife, family, friends etc. Therapy may help you achieve that.

All the best.

[Loretta Ann]

Hi Cathy,

Because the male projects his inner femaleness onto the woman, and when her behavior or appearance does not correspond to his projection, he places his projection elsewhere and becomes interested in that.

Is that implying that crossdressers are applying their projection of their inner femaleness upon themselves? Or that they might be (by passing) projecting it upon society?

[CJ]

Hi all,

Jessica,

Most excellent posts! Very articulate and deeply moving. I wish you a belated welcome to the forum.

Your main concern: I fear that there is something "hard wired" into her brain that simply won't let her accept me as I am, now that she knows. And you believe this hard-wired "something" is at the source of her expression of thinly-veiled disgust. Well, you might be on to something, here.

Given that the two primary concerns of SO's when they find out about their mate's CD'ing are usually 1) Is he gay? and 2) Does he want to get a sex change operation? it stands to reason that the underlying suspicion, for our SO's, is that there's a likelihood "there's a woman in there somewhere." And she's screaming, or maybe just whimpering, to come out. And this is where who you are meets the hard-wired brain of your spouse. She's (presumably) as heterosexual as you are. If it's true (and the issue is still contentious) that our sexual orientation is hard-wired, then it also stands to reason that she's not particularly enthusiastic about being in a relationship with "another woman"--however "hidden" this woman be.

In your response to Georgia's hearfelt post, you mention more than once the fact that a CD'ing husband is still the same person, thus completely bypassing Georgia's admission that this is not as much of interest to her as is the fact that her husband is a man. Yes, that man is, to be sure, a person but, in relation to her being a woman, Georgia's hubby is, first and foremost, a man.

You state that Georgia's trying to find a comfortable way of relating to him "when he's wearing lipstick..." that it's a situation that leaves [her] feeling "slightly uneasy," and that you can certainly see how it would...because he looks like a different person.

Further, you say that your wife sees you as this different person...not the person she married.

I think it's not so much because Georgia's mate (and, potentially, you) look like different persons when crossdressed as it is that you look like women that women (again, presumably hard-wired, heterosexual women) will have, shall we say, negative reactions. Apparently, even the suspicion that their man wants to be (or to look like) a woman is enough to trigger this reaction... no actual transgender behaviour necessary.

An erstwhile member of this forum, a GG who was once a moderator, performed an interesting experiment last year on Halloween. She crossdressed, fully and completely (including facial hair and, uh, "equipment"), planning to spend the evening thus attired with her husband. Needless to say, that went over like a lead balloon. Within the hour, given his horrified reaction, she was forced to change back into her "womanly" self. The case can be made that his reaction is just as hard-wired as is your wife's, Jessica.

I don't know that this helps any. As usual, I take my brain under my arm and just run with it, not always knowing in which part of the field it'll land. But, I have to say, your post was a pure joy to read, Jessica, even though some of the feelings behind it are dark indeed. I only wish I could express my emotions so plainly as you do.

I also wish you the best of luck should you decide to implement some of the suggestions my sisters have made, here in this thread. Although it may very well be true that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, I think it's also true that, if we love something, we ought to set it free.

Love,
CJ

[Absaroka]

I love the story about the woman CDing as a man.

Andrea

[Georgia(SO)]

As usual, CJ nails it right on the head. She said

it stands to reason that the underlying suspicion, for our SO's, is that there's a likelihood "there's a woman in there somewhere." And she's screaming, or maybe just whimpering, to come out...then it also stands to reason that she's not particularly enthusiastic about being in a relationship with "another woman"--however "hidden" this woman be..

CJ is so fully right, except that she is assuming that the SOs are not interested in having a relationship with another woman because the SOs are hetero - I speak for myself, but fear of a relationship with a woman isn't the problem... For reasons I can't begin to explain (believe me, I've tried to explain them to myself, let alone to anyone else)...this "woman in there somewhere" feels like my guy is cheating on me. I know it isn't logical, so I'll make another run at trying to explain this ridiculous gut feeling. It *feels* like there is another woman in this relationship. It *feels* like he is having this hot affair with this other woman - who also, by the way, happens to be him. Again, I know this is stupid, illogical, makes no sense, etc., etc., etc. But somehow, because he sometimes seems to have more fun *being* her than being *with* me, and because, yes, she sometimes is screaming to get out, well...ya know...it just doesn't thrill me when she does get out. And so, when I see him gearing up for some time as her, I quietly close my eyes and try to regain control of this screaming jealousy that is building up inside of me.

I swear to God, the feelings are the same feelings I get when I see something his ex-wife or a previous girlfriend gave him. And I know from talking to the other SOs that many of them have the same feelings. So what we do is close our eyes, take deep breaths and try not to say something stupid since we are all deeply aware that we are being jealous of ... what?

I have thought about this part of my reaction more than I care to, because, quite frankly, it bothers me that I am jealous of ... what? Well, in my own defense, my guy tends to get all wrapped up in himself when he's en femme. The clothes, the strut, the flippy walk, the trappings, the chat rooms - all of that sucks up all his attention at that point. I feel superfulous, even though I know I mean the world to him. And I feel, like Helen Boyd said, - like his dumpy kid sister instead of his red hot lover." And I feel - uh... like I'm in the way - for good reason. If I weren't there he would dress to the teeth and spend the evening with someone else.

So, yes, I do get jealous. But, I am also aware that I would not be jealous if, say, he became that immersed in some other activity - say working on the car, or fishing, or collecting stamps or something. I might be annoyed that he wasn't listening to me, but I wouldn't be jealous. So why *jealous* about this, rather than simply annoyed?

I think there are a couple of reasons. First, my brain knows what to do when another woman threatens my relationship with my guy. My brain knows how to catalogue that, and what emotions go along with it. Ergo, when my guy's girl threatens my relationship with my guy, bingo - the brain sends out the little green jealous vibes. (Emotions are rarely discriminating...and *my* emotions have a hard time getting the hang of her is him).

Secondly, it's hard to be jealous of a thing - like a car. This other person who lives inside him is a real, live breathing person who intrudes on our relationship sometimes.

Third, I know that when he is en femme, he prefers men. I'm not guessing - he's told me. So, yes, I am jealous that he may well find someone else to play with. It's not about whether he's bi or gay or whatever you want to call it - it's about whether he will want someone else besides me. And the only time he does that is when he's being her. Or she's being him. Or whatever. As for those of you who are totally hetero, dressed or not, you often wonder if your SOs keep wondering whether you are really gay? Well, you are probably right. They probably do wonder that - for whatever reason, some of us have a hard time getting our brains around the concept that you want to dress and act like women, but you still are attracted to women.

Unfortunately, Virginia was right. Many of us "just don't get it." The trick here is to realize that I don't have to "get it." I don't have to understand it. I don't know that I ever will understand it. I just have to accept it. See, accepting it means this to me = "I don't understand why you like to do this, and I don't particularly enjoy it. But I accept that you do need to do this, for whatever reason, and I am not going to allow my reactions to your dressing to ruin our relationship. I'm not going to leave you for it and I'm not going to ask you to change."

I suspect that Jessica_Karen's SO's behavior of closing her eyes and breathing deeply is born of trying to cope with emotions she doesn't know what to do with. Because she has never seen her guy dressed, she can't quite even imagine what it would look like. I rarely see my guy dressed - he doesn't dress much in front of me. Not that I asked him not to - he is not comfortable with it.

But I'll tell you a secret. I was on his computer one time (working - with his permission) and I went to insert the company logo in a document. Windows is ever so helpful and when I clicked "insert image", it offered up the latest image file that had been used. It was him fully decked out. I must tell you that I stared at it for a long time. I needed to get used to it - I needed to look at it long enough that I could see *him* in there. I needed to look at it long enough that I wasn't startled by what I saw. I needed to stare at it without hurting his feelings. It helped. A lot. But yes. I still feel jealous inside. I just have enough sense not to say so!

As usual, I have run on too long. Standard disclaimer - I speak only for myself....etc., etc.

-g

[Elizabeth]

Hi girls

I must say I was totally blown away by that last post by Georgia(SO). Never before have I had this explained to me in such a way that I could truly grasp it. That was a very forthright post that showed her heartfelt feelings about something that is so hard to describe.

Georgia,

I wish that I was able to describe to you how it feels on the other side of this issue, as well as you decribed your side. I wish there was a way to show you that you have nothing to fear from the "other woman". Even though you may see your fears as being irrational, they are real fears. And while I may not be able to put into words what your SO if feeling, perhaps by telling you what I have felt, just as you did, I may shed some light on this.

The "other woman" that resides in me is not the "other woman" at all. And while I know that because I am transsexual and desire to be a woman that makes me quite different than other crossdressers, I do beleive what we feel inside is the same, at least about the "other woman" The "other woman" is me. Just as you have many sides to your personality, the "other woman" is a side of me.

I used to have all these people that I had to be. I had to put on one face to my ex-wife, another face to my children(my true self), another face to friends and family, another face to employers and employees and yet plenty of other faces for aquaintences and strangers.

But even with all there faces, mostly invented to deal with people and situations where I could not deal with them as my true self, Elizabeth was always there. She was not the "other woman" at all. She is/was an engrained part of who and what I am. When I put on female clothes Elizabeth does not come to life. She is always there. However, she is acknowledged. This acknowledgement is important in accepting who and what we are. It is my beleif that this is why as crossdressers get older, the need to acknowledge thier inner woman becomes overwhelming. I beleive this is also why crossdressing is progressive.

The more closely one can look like what they feel inside, the more they are finally able to acknowledge what it is they have been feeling all these years. That is why there is such a "high" to crossdressing. It is a validaton of what we knew all along, she was in there. It is very hard to put into words what this feeling is like, but if you have ever had a child and know that wonderful feeling when it arrives, the feelings if very similar. Releif, and incredible joy and release of the anxiety of the wait.

The "other woman" is not someone your husband spends time with. She is one of his facets that needs validation. He validates this part of himself by acknolwedging her existance and accepting her. Taking off the clothes will not make her go away so it is academic whether or not one is able to quit dressing.

This has been a great thread so far. Some of the best I have ever seen our membership offer up. Well done ladies.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Virginia]

I have got to say AMEN to Elizabeth's acceptance of what Georgia has written, it has helped me more to understand the feminine perspective of what you deal with in trying to understand/accept us. My wife, unfortunately was one that, as you know did not want to know,learn, or deal with it. Something in her socio-economic or religious background simply said it was evil and get away from it ASAP!
I furthur agree with Elizabeth that as we = CD'ers learn to balance the male/female aspect of our existenance, it can and should be a furthur enhancement to our relationship with our SO, but I guess for some it will never quite reach that level. I can only speak for myself here, but the dressing is nice and I have to admit I love to do it, but and it is a big BUT, for me is only now seems to enhance the desire to further develop the feminine characterics that I find so appealing, love, empathy, caring, gentleness, etc.
Georgia you are a real treasure to us, I hope you know that - THANKS!
Love,
Virginia

[Georgia(SO)]

Virginia - Thank you so much (blushing...). I'm glad to know that you appreciate what I have to offer this group. Sometimes I wonder if I'm intruding - sticking in my thoughts where they aren't entirely wanted...
I'm sorry that your wife had such issues with this side of you. It's of little comfort, I'm certain, but having been divorced twice over commonplace issues like blown trust, I know it's really hard. Divorce sucks, regardless of the *issue* involved, and regardless of whether you are the one who wanted it or the one who didn't want it. I'm sorry you are hurting...

Elizabeth - Thanks for your input. I really do understand that there is nothing to fear in my guy's other side - and that she's really a part of him, not some other woman making the moves on him. So it amazes me to recognize these feelings within myself. I think that as young girls, we learned how to process some other woman in our guy's lives. Most of us, however, were never exposed to, and therefore never learned how to process, this other woman in his soul. Therefore, our emotional responses automatically go to the default of "OTHER WOMAN" - ergo, we feel jealous, as if she was a separate entity with a mind of her own and designs on our fellow. Logic and emotion are not the same thing...

And I have to tell you all thanks for letting me sit in on your discussions. My guy doesn't want me talking about this with anyone, and is somewhat embarrassed if I try to talk to him about it, so being able to ask stupid questions, being able to think my way through this on this site, being able to be around ya'll keeps me from feeling like I'm the only one who feels the things I feel. I gotta tell ya'll - you are some of the most accepting, understanding, genuine folks I've run into in a long time. thanks...

The other thing that strikes me so forcefully is how much you all love and cherish your SOs. See, back in the dark ages when I was learning what boys were like, all us girls thought that guys don't hurt like we do, guys don't feel all the romantic feelings that we do, guys don't treasure like we do. Us girls would get together (think 7th grade) and endlessly discuss how much we loved (insert name of cute guy in math class) and endlessly discuss how heartbroken we were when he dumped us. We never saw guys do this. Now, I have no idea whether guys actually do this or not (perhaps in some dark corner of the locker room or while cruising the main drag?), but we certainly weren't privy to it. So, no matter how grown up I get, no matter that I have a bunch of male friends who have had their hearts broken, no matter that I have 4 sons who have had their hearts broken, I still default to "guys don't hurt like we do". And it's a crock. It really is. Still, when I hear the anguish in your posts about an SO that is making you hurt, it is tangible proof that yes, guys hurt as much as we do, they love as much as we do, they need us as much as we need them... It means that if ya'll love your ladies as much as you do, there's a distinct chance that my guy loves me that much too! Thanks for letting me see into your hearts...

-g