Thanks Bernice, Danielle.
I understand your points. Its true in the protections in the law in California, its about pre and post-op trans and protecting someone who consistently presents in the gender of identification. It does not give carte blanche to drift between presentations.
Part of the initiative I'm working on, a pretty big part actually, is training of employers. Training from the top down (starting with our department heads). Danielle. Are you saying you would also fire someone if you felt they were too "out" about being trans? What about a client, how would you feel and act about it?
Crossdressing in the Workplace
Moderators: KimberlyS, CathyAnn
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Terri(SO)
- Miss Platinum Goddess
- Posts: 373
- Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 7:35 am
- Location: San Francisco
- Contact:
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Danielle La Belle
- Account Deactivated at Member's Request
- Posts: 994
- Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 9:49 am
- Location: SC
Hi Terri:
Let me tackle the “client” first.
I would never turn down a client that dresses differently than I. On the other hand, I am not you everyday person since I am TG. So, my answer is clearly being influenced by my own personal choices that are pro-TG.
I think most better educated individuals that manage to survive as consultants have both found a nitch area to work in and can be more flexible with change and cultural differences. It really depends of their present state of mind with regard to other factors such as financial solvency and just how badly they need the work as to weather they will accept or reject the client because they can.
Everyone on par aims for some form of retirement. To many this means not having to answer to anyone else for the most part. Not just staying at home but having the freedom to choose what they do everyday. Even that environment is tainted by the fact that if you are married there remains your life partner that wants to have a equal say as well on time and distribution of assets on a weekly basis.
So, yes, I would consider and work for someone that is different than me and have done so on the premise that their money is just as green as the next person’s. Not that I personally approve of their lifestyle, manner of dress or any other classical representation that you would choose to examine.
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Would I “fire” someone that appears different?
No. But I would expect them to be consistent in their presentation everyday. Hands down, they must demonstrate as I would my self, what we all might agree on would be a business-like appearance with the objective of earning their keep in the organization.
I have many friends in Corporate America. Some of these work at Chase Bank. The current policy at that institution is in favor of protecting TG people. On the other hand, they do expect that the person fit my paragraph one in this topic.
Ask any person of color about discrimination. Regardless of their education, they still find that there are those that will discriminate against them when and where possible. Unfortunately, good, bad or indifferent, Europe and the various Countries demonstrate this cultural situation as they do in Africa. Every continent is divided into Countries. Each having certain cultural traits and social behaviors that make them different. That set them apart and setup the social strife that we see when a handful are transplanted from their own culture to another. Race, religion, creed.
Companies are the same way. “Birds of a feather” as it were. Companies hire people that fit sometimes very narrow requirements. Other times the a specific group of employees all only fit a minimum requirement level.
The corporate world follows the CEO/CFO. They set the standards and the pace. I would arrange a meeting with them alone if possible to point-blank ask them if they are going to support the TG concepts that you are training in. Any answer other than 100% support tells you how it is going to go.
I speak from 10 years Federal Service, 20 years Aerospace, and 10 years as an independent consultant. I went through a half-dozen “programs,” that when instituted, sounded very good. Eventually, the people backing such efforts retired or simply disappeared from their position of authority and the program died with that disappearance.
“Zero Defects,” “Customer First,” “Total Quality Management,” “Positive Attitude Plan.”
With every new employee and every new manager/supervisor comes a new set of rules. When in fact, the only rule that needs to be applied every time is:
“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”
We keep trying to reinvent the wheel so we can basically bypass this all common, all encompassing rule that everyone knows about. It is too simple. We do not need to run out and hire a training staff or a new compliment of training books. When it comes to human interaction this rule stands out far and away from anything that man has come up with since.
Hugs
Danielle Marie
Let me tackle the “client” first.
I would never turn down a client that dresses differently than I. On the other hand, I am not you everyday person since I am TG. So, my answer is clearly being influenced by my own personal choices that are pro-TG.
I think most better educated individuals that manage to survive as consultants have both found a nitch area to work in and can be more flexible with change and cultural differences. It really depends of their present state of mind with regard to other factors such as financial solvency and just how badly they need the work as to weather they will accept or reject the client because they can.
Everyone on par aims for some form of retirement. To many this means not having to answer to anyone else for the most part. Not just staying at home but having the freedom to choose what they do everyday. Even that environment is tainted by the fact that if you are married there remains your life partner that wants to have a equal say as well on time and distribution of assets on a weekly basis.
So, yes, I would consider and work for someone that is different than me and have done so on the premise that their money is just as green as the next person’s. Not that I personally approve of their lifestyle, manner of dress or any other classical representation that you would choose to examine.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would I “fire” someone that appears different?
No. But I would expect them to be consistent in their presentation everyday. Hands down, they must demonstrate as I would my self, what we all might agree on would be a business-like appearance with the objective of earning their keep in the organization.
I have many friends in Corporate America. Some of these work at Chase Bank. The current policy at that institution is in favor of protecting TG people. On the other hand, they do expect that the person fit my paragraph one in this topic.
Ask any person of color about discrimination. Regardless of their education, they still find that there are those that will discriminate against them when and where possible. Unfortunately, good, bad or indifferent, Europe and the various Countries demonstrate this cultural situation as they do in Africa. Every continent is divided into Countries. Each having certain cultural traits and social behaviors that make them different. That set them apart and setup the social strife that we see when a handful are transplanted from their own culture to another. Race, religion, creed.
Companies are the same way. “Birds of a feather” as it were. Companies hire people that fit sometimes very narrow requirements. Other times the a specific group of employees all only fit a minimum requirement level.
The corporate world follows the CEO/CFO. They set the standards and the pace. I would arrange a meeting with them alone if possible to point-blank ask them if they are going to support the TG concepts that you are training in. Any answer other than 100% support tells you how it is going to go.
I speak from 10 years Federal Service, 20 years Aerospace, and 10 years as an independent consultant. I went through a half-dozen “programs,” that when instituted, sounded very good. Eventually, the people backing such efforts retired or simply disappeared from their position of authority and the program died with that disappearance.
“Zero Defects,” “Customer First,” “Total Quality Management,” “Positive Attitude Plan.”
With every new employee and every new manager/supervisor comes a new set of rules. When in fact, the only rule that needs to be applied every time is:
“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”
We keep trying to reinvent the wheel so we can basically bypass this all common, all encompassing rule that everyone knows about. It is too simple. We do not need to run out and hire a training staff or a new compliment of training books. When it comes to human interaction this rule stands out far and away from anything that man has come up with since.
Hugs
Danielle Marie
Make the most of every day!
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Chrissy
- Miss Crystal Goddess
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 4:34 pm
- Location: Maine
Hi allI havent posted in this forum for a long time; though Ive kept visiting from time to time and thought Id reply to this topic which is indeed near to my heart. I am in the begining of my transition, i applied as a TG woman as was hired as the by a local university here in Maine. I am currently living full time as a female, except for when i kick my old van with some lingering male "gusto" when it acts up....
anyway, over two years ago, I started HRT. This was self directed at the time, (ive since found a therapist, psych, and md that have diagnosed me with GID and are now involved with monitoring, prescribing hormones and of course therapy). After becomming "legal" with the medical community and myself in a sense, I came out to my wife, kids, siblings, and other important souls in my life....with those tidal waves sent out and slowly subsiding, the big missing part was employment as a female.
From close sources, i had heard that the University was very supportive of tg people and issues. I thought i might have a chance to find a position, even a starting "foot in the door" job, while not being glamours or what i eventually wish for, it might allow me to find employment as a woman, show that im a person just like they are, and allow me to go far above and beyond what they expect from an employee. In a way, i wanted to be a positive example of what a tg person is; hard working carring, friendly, helpful, just annother average person with an unaverage challenge.
So i applied for a position (actually 2, but a hiring freeze is temp. in place). With my resume, i included a cover letter and decided to state that i was transgendered. For some reason, i thought that might be the best way. I thought perhaps an employer might appreciate and value honesty. Maybe i didnt have to say anything legaly, but i did....
I got a call for an interview one day and i had only 2 hours to get there and get ready...i was 50 miles away and time was ticking away. As i wasnt overly hopefull for contact from them, i hadnt really thought of going to my interview as Christin...i was still at my home, mostly living in guy mode, but rapidly changing to a full time woman...so it was a quick and scarry decision to put on my blue business skirt, white blouse, and blue jacket and go to my first job interview as Christin.
I arrived and felt rather natural walking to the office for my interview...however my mind of course was spinning. "what would i say?, how would i say it?"...im still working on my voice for a more fem sounding way, so that was a concern too....
So i boldly went where "christopher (the old person that used to be me) wouldnt have dared venture....a job interview as a female...actually it went well...it was interesteing cause i had to rely on my guy job interviewing skills honed over 30 years of employment...all the while trying to be taken seriously as a female canidate for the job....i guess my survival skills kicked in and I just was myself, felt natural, and felt at ease...
THings went well, i was able to make them smile and laugh inspite of themselves....and generally felt good about how i did. I thought if nothing else, this experience is something that I couldnt buy to use as a training tool for myself...
So not just a few weeks went bye and i thought "well at least i tried, it was a good experience". I was delighted to recieve a call one monday telling me i was hired....
How wonderful!....How magical!.... Christin was accepted as a whole person worthy of a chance at a new job, given recognition as a woman (albeit transitioning), addressed as Christin, having the wonderful pleasure of being introduced to my coworkers as Christin, refered to as she, her.With that one chance i took, with that simple decision on my employers part that I am a person worthy of what everyone else should be allowed...a personal identity that fits whats inside, my life has taken a very special turn. I can go to classes free and will slowly pursue a degree so I can become a professor or an instructor in the future.
For now i still have many things ahead...ffs, voice training, eventual grs...and you know...just life like everyone else...the good and the bad...but life as a female now...
years ago, i saw this beautiful peak off in the distance...i wanted to climb it so badly it hurt. Each day it took small steps to arrive there...but i did...now i can see even more wonderous sights now that im above the static and mist of my old life....
Be well everyone...it can be done....just dont forget to breath along the way....
love
Christin
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Danielle La Belle
- Account Deactivated at Member's Request
- Posts: 994
- Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 9:49 am
- Location: SC
I am happy to hear that Christin was able to find an opportunity in a local college. Academia is by far more willing to accept and employ people with social and personal differences than the corporate world.
Academia in non-profit, government supported institutions is more open and supportive about avoiding discrimination. For-profit Universities (private Universities) are open but less willing in my experience as they are for-profit businesses.
Like most major magazines, we can always find a story to tell that is positive and successful. Christin’s venture is such a heart warming story. Unfortunately, it is just that. One story and I hesitate to be the bearer of bad tidings but, there are 1000’s of comparative stories that did not turn out so well.
Loose hope, no, not me. But, we live in a world where we are constantly being shown how well someone did, how rich they became etc, and then we notice that this is just one story. The comparative stories are not being shown. Girls, we cannot let our guard down on this matter. People openly discriminate everyday at will. It is a matter of reality that we can be warmed by Christin’s story and take heart in it. But, still, reality is what it is.
Our own openly observable perception, which changes daily as we read and interact with society and it’s “communications organs;” video, audio, and printed word. We become enamored with the idea that there is hope. There is, but on what scale? I bleed like everyone else, so I am not overly optimistic that everyone can be as fortunate as Christin.
On the other hand, here in Florida there are plenty of $ 8.00 - $10.00 /hr positions. Woman fill many of these positions which are categorized as administrative in the social sciences; medicine, education etc. But, can you really live on such a salary with today’s economy? Will you spend the rest of your days “kicking” that old van outside your apartment house or will you move on up the social ladder of success.
Will the “powers to be” permit your ascension into the higher sphere of their culture or will you be forever cast into the current role as secretary, filing clerk etc? Discrimination is alive and well girls in the corporate world and no doubt in the academic world as well. Change takes time. Thus we see Shakespeare dressed in that funny little collar speaking with middle English and his verbs at the end of every sentence. It is no wonder that we find this form funny or unusual and difficult to understand and translate into meaningful concepts of today.
Devils advocate; YES. Controversial, yes! I for one want equality not in name, not in law or gesture, I want it to be a reality that comes from an honest judgment of and by others that I meet everyday. “Liar Liar ---- pants on fire,” infamous indeed as I have met with people behind closed doors to decided the fate of fellow employees over the years in management.
Salt in the wound, YES. It should sting! Just like those that have met you face-to-face and lied to you about what they really think! Oh, to be a fly-on-the-wall, with an ability to read minds! What dastardly thoughts would I hear! Not words of wisdom but heart retching hurtful words that break my heart to think that those words are their true thoughts. People have gone wanting because of my corporate decisions that saved the ship, but let drown those that did contribute so willingly for as many years.
Weep not for this corporate sinner of human resources and management, I am that I am and will not ask that of you. Ye hear me well, march on with vigor and stamina, take pride in your day as a woman!
Hugs
Danielle Marie
.
Academia in non-profit, government supported institutions is more open and supportive about avoiding discrimination. For-profit Universities (private Universities) are open but less willing in my experience as they are for-profit businesses.
Like most major magazines, we can always find a story to tell that is positive and successful. Christin’s venture is such a heart warming story. Unfortunately, it is just that. One story and I hesitate to be the bearer of bad tidings but, there are 1000’s of comparative stories that did not turn out so well.
Loose hope, no, not me. But, we live in a world where we are constantly being shown how well someone did, how rich they became etc, and then we notice that this is just one story. The comparative stories are not being shown. Girls, we cannot let our guard down on this matter. People openly discriminate everyday at will. It is a matter of reality that we can be warmed by Christin’s story and take heart in it. But, still, reality is what it is.
Our own openly observable perception, which changes daily as we read and interact with society and it’s “communications organs;” video, audio, and printed word. We become enamored with the idea that there is hope. There is, but on what scale? I bleed like everyone else, so I am not overly optimistic that everyone can be as fortunate as Christin.
On the other hand, here in Florida there are plenty of $ 8.00 - $10.00 /hr positions. Woman fill many of these positions which are categorized as administrative in the social sciences; medicine, education etc. But, can you really live on such a salary with today’s economy? Will you spend the rest of your days “kicking” that old van outside your apartment house or will you move on up the social ladder of success.
Will the “powers to be” permit your ascension into the higher sphere of their culture or will you be forever cast into the current role as secretary, filing clerk etc? Discrimination is alive and well girls in the corporate world and no doubt in the academic world as well. Change takes time. Thus we see Shakespeare dressed in that funny little collar speaking with middle English and his verbs at the end of every sentence. It is no wonder that we find this form funny or unusual and difficult to understand and translate into meaningful concepts of today.
Devils advocate; YES. Controversial, yes! I for one want equality not in name, not in law or gesture, I want it to be a reality that comes from an honest judgment of and by others that I meet everyday. “Liar Liar ---- pants on fire,” infamous indeed as I have met with people behind closed doors to decided the fate of fellow employees over the years in management.
Salt in the wound, YES. It should sting! Just like those that have met you face-to-face and lied to you about what they really think! Oh, to be a fly-on-the-wall, with an ability to read minds! What dastardly thoughts would I hear! Not words of wisdom but heart retching hurtful words that break my heart to think that those words are their true thoughts. People have gone wanting because of my corporate decisions that saved the ship, but let drown those that did contribute so willingly for as many years.
Weep not for this corporate sinner of human resources and management, I am that I am and will not ask that of you. Ye hear me well, march on with vigor and stamina, take pride in your day as a woman!
Hugs
Danielle Marie
.
Make the most of every day!