man enough

[Ralitsa]

It's sort of recurring theme, the problem of whether someone can be "man enough" when dressing as a woman. This is an issue that certain people have tried to put on me, and I just don't accept it, and I'm confident that many others have to deal with it in various ways.
So girls, post your thoughts on the subject.

When I graduated from high school my dad gave me a card that had printed on it Kiplings "If". To me that poem pretty much defines it, and it doesn't say anything about whether I can wear a cute dress and heels.
It does set some very high standards though, and I won't say that I meet them all. But to me that is a better metric than any other that I know of.

Then again, there is the whole question of whether we are deciding the answer for ourselves, or we need to meet the expectations of a SO or other interested party.
So I have my own answer, but I'm curious about your answers.

[Anthony Simon]

My idea of "being a man" is do you function when you absolutely have to - i.e. when the chips are down. I think that's not so far from the idea in "If" (which isn't so surprising given that I was brought up in the UK). But there are other ideas - to do with "bringing home the bacon" and stuff like that.

And then there's the kind of attitude of "being a man". When I walk about I see endless people who seem to adopt an "aggresive", "masculine", posture which seems to promise that these people can deliver when the chips are down. But to me the sense of it is always that it is just that - a posture. I think of it as a kind of male impersonation by men. So, on the one hand, I don't believe that dressing up like a woman makes much difference to my core functionality as a man - and on the other, that (what these people do) adopting the style of a man makes them able to deliver as men.

[Gillian]

So, what is a man? If the only criterion is a penis, has the standard been set to low? If you have to participate in all that macho stuff, has the standard been set to high, or something? By my SO's standard I am very manly, and yes she accepts all of my underdressing habits. She knows I will go farther on occasion. Personally I think that society needs to relook at what a man is. More needs to be said about being loving, caring and nurturing. A man needs to be a good father to his children. Maybe if more men put an effort into these things, the world might be a better place. A man should not be measured by his clothes, what he does, or how he thinks. A man should be measured by the type of impart that he has made in this world after he has left it.

[Paula G]

I have commented on this else where, but I am convinced that through my cross dressing, releasing, expressing, and getting comfortable with my feminine nature, I am able to express my masculine nature more fully. My idea of what a man is comes from my own father, a good provider, a first class sportsman, a loving husband, and a good father, in all a good man who embraced the ideas Kipling expressed in “If”, and yes we are English. He had served throughout the Second World War and had seen his father go through the Great War as well as the “General Strike” and the depression. He grew up during a challenging time in one of the less well off parts of London, saw plenty of violence and resisted getting sucked in but gained the respect of the gang members through his sport and his self control; inner city gangs are nothing new, it’s just that in the thirties they carried bike chains and cut throat razors rather than guns or knives.

I believe that one of the characteristics of being a man is self control, as much as self confidence. When I come across aggressiveness, particularly on the road, I tell myself that there is a man who thinks his penis is too small, these aggressive violent people may be male but they are not in my opinion men.

Walk quietly, be at peace with your self and your surroundings, love and cherish your family, act with authority not menace, know the difference between right and wrong, and have the courage to act on the knowledge. The peace I derive from my cross dressing allows me to get closer to these expressions of manhood, it allows me to be more self controlled, longer tempered, and generally more at peace.

So come on man up and put on that dress.

“Do you like Kipling”
“I don’t know, how do you kiple”

[Carolynn]

Ok, so we are getting an idea of what some of our members consider manly, but this place is a support for CDs who enjoy their "feminine side". So, what is your idea of femininity? Is it diametrically opposed to what it is to be a man? Or something else?

[Anthony Simon]

Ok, so we are getting an idea of what some of our members consider manly, but this place is a support for CDs who enjoy their "feminine side". So, what is your idea of femininity? Is it diametrically opposed to what it is to be a man? Or something else?

I think the standard narratives (like in that Gilmore extract I quoted) conceive of feminity as diametrically oppossed to masculinity in the sense that any admixture of "female" attributes to a man (or at least obvious ones) is going to tend to draw attacks asserting "unmasculinity".

But what does that mean about "femininity"? I know about "femininity" from the outside, from watching how women behave, how they look. On the other hand I feel there are particular qualities of character, the caring, holding, developmental aspects which have a home particularly among women. I don't think that's quite the same as feminity - but I do think that it is these characteristics that tend to differentiate women from men in a functional way (leaving aside the physical aspects). I'm not sure that's the same as what's meant by femininity.

This is obviously a complicated topic and I'm just wondering why you've introduced it into this thread. Why not start a new thread if that's what you want to talk about?

[Davita]

Masculine... Feminine... is assigned to people at a given point in time based on some arbitrary standards defined at that time. These designations go right along with times that curvy women are sexy then later it's the skinny shapeless ones. Some characteristics tend to be universal and tend to span time, but why do we need to be labeled? I think someone else asked that too. Really, are we gauging our ability to beat up a friend when we are in a skirt? What are needing from the label? Boys and girls, men and women exhibit characteristics of the other sex or gender all the time.

If we are trying to decide is we pass, simply compare to yourself to the people you know. Add a little common sense and you should be okay with your estimate. Now let me add one thing that I understand between men and women. A good looking man not overly muscular with a nice looking face tends to make a nice looking woman. Another fun observation is that once you get to a certain age, you can pass for either sex and that's true of either sex.

[Wendae]

Death of the Knight
I don't know how to attach the location of this post but it pretty much covers how many of us feel!

[Carolynn]

Ok, so we are getting an idea of what some of our members consider manly, but this place is a support for CDs who enjoy their "feminine side". So, what is your idea of femininity? Is it diametrically opposed to what it is to be a man? Or something else?

This is obviously a complicated topic and I'm just wondering why you've introduced it into this thread. Why not start a new thread if that's what you want to talk about?

My point is that for a cder, the concepts of masculinity and femininity are or maybe should be and have been said to be the two sides of the same coin. If on the one hand you claim to be male and express your masculinity, how can you know what you are expressing unless you have a good concept of the feminine too? I suggest if you do not, you may be playing dress up without understanding the emotional and sociological aspects of the two roles in our society. If you claim to have a feminine side, does it extend beyond the clothes and makeup you wear?

I have seen male swaggers on cders in full make up and dresses at "BE-ALL 2009", and attitude and base voices to match, clearly nothing more than playing dressup. What does that say about them as human beings?

Much of what a woman knows to be true for her is based on biology, and growing up as a woman within a society dominated by males in business and in determining what is "right" and "wrong" or acceptable in socio/religious settings and roles. When you dress up and go out, do you do so with an inkling of why women behave as they do and believe as they do, and react to one another and toward males as they do, or are you just a man in a dress?

That's why I brought it up in this thread. Also, it was mentioned several times that manliness was defined or should be by caring, being a good parent, maybe a good "father" (what is a good father? does that mean a role model or what), and loving to spouse and kinder, all characteristics attributed to women as well (except the father part: I still don't know what a father is other than some kind of emotionally detached person like my own father). How do those attributes differ between men and women, or do they, and/or are they transferable between clothing defined roles?

I grew up a confused kid, neither completely a biological male nor female, though I had to try to project a sociologically male role (not very successfully). I learned what my contemporaries and elders thought of as being a man by rote, never really understanding, just knowing in what circumstances certain actions seemed to be appropriate. I became an actor at a young age. Female attitudes, female emotions, were more understandable to me, but lacking the proper biology, I really couldn't fully participate in those either, just empathize a lot more than with the male ilk because I knew who I was. I started growing breasts at the same time as most of my female classmates, and felt the stings of male disdain for my attiudes and interests, and body differences at an early age, and I had a sister and a few cousins who I saw go through most of growing up female and sometimes got them to talk about. There is considerable differences between men and women, in expectations, attitudes toward each other, and even in communication.

So I find the topic of manliness vs feminintiy among cders interesting, expecially the "feminine side". How can you "be" one without knowing anything about the other? Because the understanding does not automatically reside in the clothing each gender properly wears by flexible social definition, a feminine side would have to come from what? socialization or referent role models?. If you have a "feminine side", where did it come from and how linked to the fem clothing you wear and your prejudices and associations is it? I know some people like wearing fashions from the skin out from the '50s or other time periods, while others use modern fashions. Do those preferences make a difference in ones understanding of feminine vs masculine?

Just asking for some thoughts and your self insights into masculinity and the feminine side here.

Carolynn

[Paula G]

My understanding of this thread, was that there is a difference between being a Man and simple masculinity. Being masculine is a simple matter of physical gender, being a Man is how this is expressed, we recently had the concept of “New Man” as a caring sensitive soul, fully participating in all the traditional female roles of homemaking and child rearing. While this model of masculinity has informed our modern roles, it has failed because it does not address being a Man. This is something akin to the now rather outmoded idea of a “Gentleman” not by class or social standing but by behaviour.

Within a family the father and mother often have different roles, although both can participate in the other, as a general rule the mother would be the caring sensitive, emotional lead, as well as the “chief cook and bottle washer”; father would be the strength of the family, the ultimate authority the discipline and often the provider. In my own family this did not quite work out as my mother lacks in sympathy, and emotional generosity, fortunately my father had plenty of both. Mother was a good household manager and we were all well fed and healthy, but if we needed a hug we would go to Dad.

To me being a Man for my Wife and Daughter means that I am their example of masculinity, their strength (emotional as well as physical) and their comforter. I endeavour to walk quietly, speak with care, express strength and self control, not hostility and aggression. As a husband and father I am also the main provider, their protector, the giver of hugs, repairer of things broken, advisor on fashion, and source of transport, occasional source of wisdom and entertainment, cook and cleaner.

I have often been told that I am “in touch with me feminine side” by this I think people mean that I have the strength to show that I am sensitive to others emotions and needs, to me this is part of being a Man. I think that the feminine that I am more in touch with through dressing, is being aware of my own emotional needs, the ability to interact with others without competing, a different way of expressing my own beauty, and the freedom to enjoy attractiveness in other people and things.

Of course I also enjoy dressing up

[Anthony Simon]

I have replied to Carolynn herehttp://crossdressers-forum.com/forums/v ... 363#140363 (i.e. in new thread).

[Gillian]

There are some very interesting thoughts here. I believe that one of the problems with society is that we tend to make to many things all black, or all white. Living within this type of society shapes us into its mold. I don't fit into this male mold, and I never have. Another thread had a joke about the CD'ers meeting where the CD's were in the living room getting in touch with their feminine side while the women were in the kitchen working. Myself, I have no problem being in the kitchen. I think that we all have various degrees of both traits within us, the question is which one gets developed the most. Carolynn, you had some good points, I was reminded of my own emotionally distant father. PaulaG, I try to be like the father that you talked about. Male or female, we have to learn to be what we are, and stop trying to put a square peg into a round hole.

[Ralitsa]

So it seems there is more or less of a consensus that "male", "masculine", and "man" do not necessarily mean the same thing. And I guess that was my thought, a person who has a penis is "male" and may seem "masculine" by his macho swagger and attitude. But if he just knocks-up chicks and then runs off with a new babe, he isn't a Man, in the sense of functioning when the chips are down, as Anthony Simon put it.
I also agree with Paula that crossdressing helps me function better as a Man. It helps distinguish between what is just show and appearance and what is real. Obviously my clothes are just show and appearance, but my actions and the results of my deeds are real.
I'm sort of a troublemaker anyway, and I intentionally introduce seeming contradictions at times to illustrate things I believe are senseless. So a guy wearing a dress is a seeming contradiction that makes everyone ask questions.

[Absaroka]

Several thoughts. First is that often what we describe as manly really distinguishes us from boys, not woman. We are really talking about being an adult.

Second, it's a continuum, as agreed, and usually culturally defined to some extent.

Third is we can go to biology to some extent- the ability to impregnate vs the ability to be impregnated. Which of course leads to roles being assigned.

I started a thread on the a few years ago in the crossdresseers talk forum. I'll try to find it and resurrect it. It was on what being a woman meant to my grandmother. Some of the older members related it to their own grandmothers. But basically it said that women are the stronger sex. When all else fails, when the men have run off, been thrown in jail, drafted or killed in war, or whatever, when the children are dead, woman endures, finding a new man, raising new children, perpetuating the species. In isolation, a society with a hundred women and 5 men will have far better odds of survival than a society of a hundred men and 5 women. Of course the most likely outcome if the two exist side by side is that the society of a hundred men will kill the 5 other men and take the women, but that merely proves my point, the women will endure.

[Andrea Elise]

I am not sure I understand. I consider myself a human being above all else. As I don't fit well with either sexual definition mentally, what else can I go by?

I am much happier dressed in clothing that men are not supposed to wear. I prefer the way ladies clothing fits, feels and, most of all, how comfortable it is. I am more productive, creative and at peace dressed in the clothes I prefer. Adds meaning to the phrase "Clothes make the man."

Am I man enough? I get by with protective coloration. Most people treat me with respect and those that do not, I try to stay away from.

What does it feel like to be a woman? I only know what it feels like to be me. Does being myself make me any less of person? Does it degrade my humanity?

What does it feel like to be a man? This question is one I have always regarded with slight feelings of guilt. Because I wonder what it would be like to be a male with no desire (need) to wear women's clothing.

If I sound confused about this, it is because I am. I don't understand why I would have to be man enough dressed as a woman.

Andrea