Crossdressers-Haven.com

In the "Lost Interest" thread Anita said (amongst other things):

As much of a nuisance as our need can be, it can be unsettling when it [the need to dress] just "goes away," too. I'm sure that there are some members of this forum who were thankful for a break from the need to dress, though.

I have not experienced the compulsive side of it for a long time, but I know that when it was compulsive, I feel driven and trapped by it. Compulsive feelings of any kind make it so that I no longer feel like I have choices about how I'll behave, and I don't like that at all.

And earlier in the thread I'd said:

When I was 13 I used to get that sort of thing occasionally - like not have the desire to dress up (a kind of active absence) - and it was a great relief. Like I used to come back from school and have this intense desire to get into panties or whatever. But the whole thing was kind of driven and oppressive and not having that sort of constellation of feelings was a relief (as well as not having the guilt at masturbating afterwards). I remember at the time thinking it had something to do with (effectively) me being validated at school.

The reason that I'm starting (and possibly finishing) a new thread rather than replying in the old one is because I want to take my answer in a new direction. The thing is, because of my experience, I'm quite clear that there can be a less positive side to dressing up (and it seems Anita has experienced that too. But I'd like to take it wider if possible). Now that isn't really the case - partly because, perhaps, I'm able to read the signs and manage it.

The thing is, when one comes a group like this, I feel the (possible) negative side doesn't get much of look in. This is the obverse of the view in the outside world, where CDing is generally construed in negative terms. It's just my experience that if someone throws something negative at you in an argument and you turn it round on them because you understand the material better, you end up better off (as in Nietzsche: "Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger"). And it does seem like CDers are in an argument with the world about what we do means or its general value. So I want to suggest that, at least to some degree, it might be worth looking at the negative side of CDing.

Maybe this is a bad idea and the group would just be overwhelmed with horrible stuff. But at least I want to suggest it.

The bad side? well this is rather difficult, but yes of course the whole CD thing is a problem, otherwise we wouldn’t need this forum, and support groups. This is not an aspect of my life that I am particularly proud of and if I could take a magic pill so that it would all go away I would. I hope that hasn't offended too many, but since there is no magic pill and I am stuck with it I must make the most of the cards I have been dealt.

Yes I have been guaped at, and have overheard some "unflattering" remarks on my mode of dress, on one occasion I was chased in my car, and felt quite threatened, I have spent money I can't afford on clothes I have no need of, and make up that is, err, inappropriate. But the big down side is, the furtiveness and secrecy, not feeling able to tell people how I feel, what I am, and worst of all not enjoying the acceptance of the person I love most.

I have often quipped about the cost of cross dressing, referring to the money spent on clothes etc. however for some the real cost can be measured in broken relationships, in loneliness. I can understand how this could lead to depression, or other problems.

Paula you echoed a lot of my sentiments as well. The guilt, frustration, and the comments we sometimes endure in public. Costs as well, maintaining dual wardrobes can get quite costly, especially if you would like to look you best in both modes. Also the physiological roller coaster we ride on a daily basis. It can be an emotional drain on yourself as well as your love ones around you.
I completely agree that if there was a magic pill to make it go away I would take it without question. Also if there was a magic pill to make me the woman I wanted to become I would take that first!

A good topic, Anthony. It needs to be examined from time to time.

Since I did not deal with crossdressing for 30-some years, it had a fierce urgency when it did come back. That was where the compulsive side came in. I reasoned that like any other new relationship, the infatuation with this "new woman" would subside, and it did. It took about three months to settle down with it, to where it was manageable.

One member of the old CDDF forum complained that there was only so much time, and his need to dress took time away from his other hobbies and pursuits. He couldn't combine them in any meaningful way. (He used a male name on the forum, I believe)

That would be painful. One benefit of being out in public is that I can combine dressing with shopping for groceries or some other need-to-do activity. This appeals to the practical side of the girl.

Negatives to dressing? hummm... loss of spouse; possible repercussions at work; various chances to be humiliated in public; in the old days and still in some countries, you're break laws so you can be arrested; lost of family; and naturally the simple expense of maintaining two wardrobes (or more). The list goes on.

Did I ever dream of stopping? Not after the second attempt to purge my wardrobe. Am I happy I didn't give up on being myself? yep! Being happy with who I am out weighs all the negatives.

Hi all,

"Overwhelmed with horrible stuff," eh, Anthony? I doubt it. People here (and away from the forum) have spent years coming to grips, or trying to come to grips, with their own nature as "differently gendered" persons. If anything, many of us are now underwhelmed, not overwhelmed, by the downside of crossdressing.

The only magic pill that I know of that would help alleviate the distress of being a crossdresser--and, as we all know, distress there can be--is a combination of education and support. When I say "education,", I really mean "self-education." Obviously, this is no instant pain relief medication. It's more of a time-release capsule. And this is true of everyone, crossdresser or not; it takes time and patience and courage and determination to become the person we can be, without drowning in the process.

While it may be true, as Nietzsche said, that whatever doesn't kill us only makes us stronger, it can nevertheless also be the case that whatever doesn't kill us can also drive us mad. As it did poor ol' Fred, who may have gazed into the abyss far too long for his own good. Because, of course, and as he also said, when you gaze into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.

And I think this is why many people come to a forum such as this one; they need a respite from gazing into the abyss (and from having the abyss gaze into them). Places and spaces such as this one can act as beacons and lights in the darkness. And, yes, the darkness is there, always.

It's not easy being "differently gendered." Gender variance isn't held in very high esteem by the common man. But, then again, neither is intelligent discourse or social tolerance. So, to me, the common man's often ill-begotten opinions matter little.

But this doesn't take away the pain we feel inside. This pain--a result of the obssessive-compulsive nature of the drive at the root of our need to express our gender identity the way we do--is a faithful companion in the lives of most of us. And it's no secret that chronic pain (even, or especially, chronic mental pain) can lead to a whole concatenation of ills; loneliness, depression, self-alienation, unmanageable anger and bitterness, substance abuse, suicidal ideation, you name it. This is the combat we face. Every. Single. Day.

However, there is hope. I lie when I say the pain is due to the nature of the drive. It's really due to a combination of that, most assuredly, and the plain, simple fact of social intolerance. Even the psychiatric establishment is beginning (finally) to recognize--as it did for homosexuality, back in the 70s--that it's not the gender variance per se that causes a gender-variant person distress (in fact, quite to the contrary, the act of dressing--or expressing our gender identity--itself brings many of us pleasure) but, rather, the fact that most other people, our loved ones included, cannot tolerate this "freakish" eccentricity. Now, that smarts... especially given the essential harmlessness (and, to us, benefit) of gender variance. And, as people are wont to do when they feel uncomfortable, they turn gender variance into an object of derision. Thus, our very real suffering is played for laughs. But, you know what? I'd rather this than murder. It's surely the case that the Gwen Aurojos and Teena Brandons of the world would've preferred to be scoffed at rather than outright killed for the way in which they chose to express their gender identity.

Having said this, yes, there's still a downside to being who we are. Nobody wants to be a slave to their own drives. And nobody wants to be ostracized. So what do most of us do? We allow ourselves the guilty pleasure of becoming the slaves to our own drives alone and in the privacy of our own homes. But this just ain't gonna cut it for very long. Not for many of us, anyway. Why? Simply because the social element of any identity--including transgender identity--requires that we be seen, gazed upon, and acknowledged by others for who and what we are or feel ourselves to be. While the construction of our identity (and, as in the Tylenol television ad, this can be "whatever your normal is") is a personal, individual labour, the expression of that identity, on the other hand, is an eminently social act.

I put this forth: we are not crossdressers or transsexuals if nobody else in the world but ourselves sees this to be the case. We are not transgressing anything whatsoever if nobody sees us. Ah, but CJ (you may say), whenever I'm home alone, fully dressed, and gazing at my reflection in the hallway mirror, I can see myself, so, in the end, I still know that I'm transgressing, that I'm a crossdresser. Not so, I'll argue. The person you see in the mirror, when dressed, is an Other. The girl you see in the mirror is the projected ideal of your own self. And your own self, the one still situated (imprisoned?) in your body, is the one gazing at the transgressive reflection in the mirror. In a way, we become jealous or envious of the "woman in the mirror" even though she and we are one. It's that very act of gazing upon the reflected woman that tells us or lets us know that we're transgressors, that we're crossdressers. And oh! how pine for the gaze of some Other upon us, some Other that isn't just our "imprisoned" self! That, too, brings pain. And a terrible loneliness.

A terrible loneliness.

Much of this loneliness can be, at least partially, evacuated when we come out of the closet, so to speak. When an Other--a wholly Other--sees us for who we are, it's as if dark clouds lift. We feel free and happy and content. For many, this can be achieved by coming to an online forum in order to share thoughts, feelings, and experiences with like-minded (or like-afflicted?) souls. For others, it requires taking a walk on the wild side in the "real" world. Either way, these are necessary steps on the road to both wholeness and wellness.

Be well and be whole. The best way to do this is to just be. The wagging tongues will eventually tie themselves in a knot and be silenced. It may take a while but we're heading that way.

Love,
CJ

Bravo CJ. Anne

Of course there is a dark side, and we all deal with it in our various ways. Before "that one" filed for divorce, I will really say that I was tormented by my desire and did struggle to repress it. She is the sort who thinks she is holier than everyone else, and tried to use it as leverage against me. In the interest of my kids I tried to do what I could to appease her. But in the end, I realized that she believed she held a weapon that she could use to get everything she wanted from me. And at that moment I called her bluff, so she filed for divorce.
CJ said,

So, to me, the common man's often ill-begotten opinions matter little.

And that is what I decided then. Despite, or maybe because of, her belief that she is better than everyone else, I don't consider her opinion to be valid. Her behaviour proved that she is no shining model. On the other hand, people whom I really and truly and geniunely respect, seem to have no problem at all accepting me as a cross dresser. Some of them were surprised and a little shocked maybe, but once they digested it were OK. So I've come to the conclusion that a persons reaction to me says more about them than it does about me.
But the problems: I can't wear a skirt or dress to work, and I really want to. I do wear what I want most other times, so I'm pretty lucky and not complaining.
My kids may suffer something from it. I don't think they personally care very much, except my son Daniel who thinks too much and too deeply for his own happiness, but other kids will likely torment them about it.
My kids and my work are the only things I care much about, and I fear this does have a direct impact on both of them. The rest of the world can go pound sand. But the rest of the world won't go pound sand, if they find that I am indifferent to their opinion, they will attack something else, like my kids or work, so there is always some danger.
On the other hand, I feel happier, freer, more comfortable and at ease than I ever did before. I've met several people who have become friends that are very encouraging. Young, beautiful women are much more likely to speak to me now, before they ran in fear at my approach.
There are costs, every time I see my credit card statement I count the cost, but on the whole I think the emotional fulfillment that I get outweighs the stress. I'm not a good example, I've always been pretty unconcerned about the opinions of others, and had a tendency to flout my independence, so I probably feel the pain of intolerance less than I should.
When it comes down to it, there is always a dark side to everything, and we all must choose somehow a balance for ourselves. Facing the dark side can help overcome it, or at least to put it in perspective. I wouldn't take a pill to make this go away, nor would I take a pill to become a woman. Struggling with this has made me stronger, and I hope it's given me the courage to take on my next challenge, which will be to start doing some work on my own, starting a business, and making becoming financially independent. And the thought of going it on my own scares me a lot more than the idea of walking down the street in a hot pink mini-skirt and sparkly crop top, showing more flesh than a Bankok waterfront dive.

CJ wrote:The only magic pill that I know of that would help alleviate the distress of being a crossdresser--and, as we all know, distress there can be--is a combination of education and support. When I say "education,", I really mean "self-education." Obviously, this is no instant pain relief medication. It's more of a time-release capsule. And this is true of everyone, crossdresser or not; it takes time and patience and courage and determination to become the person we can be, without drowning in the process.

Sure, it's a process and "process" is the key word, the process of finding myself (or my self). But it's finding your way to that process that's the difficult thing. I mean, for me, getting some sort of sense that the thing is going (don't care to where, just so long as it's going).

While it may be true, as Nietzsche said, that whatever doesn't kill us only makes us stronger, it can nevertheless also be the case that whatever doesn't kill us can also drive us mad. As it did poor ol' Fred, who may have gazed into the abyss far too long for his own good. Because, of course, and as he also said, when you gaze into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.

Yup, I know that.

And I think this is why many people come to a forum such as this one; they need a respite from gazing into the abyss (and from having the abyss gaze into them). Places and spaces such as this one can act as beacons and lights in the darkness. And, yes, the darkness is there, always.

I think for me, at the moment, it's more like ease the darkness. Like it's still basically dark but maybe you catch a hint of something beyond that.

It's not easy being "differently gendered." Gender variance isn't held in very high esteem by the common man.

Yeah, well, that's putting it mildly. Scares the living daylights out him, more like. I mean the whole social idea of "being a man" is constructed around lack of femininity in the character. So any idea of a functional male who presents as a female suggests all sorts of deep abysses for him (in my opinion. My God, I'm getting hot on this). Like the whole of his identity is built on a fallacy (or is that phallacy?).

If you're "sick" (or can anyway be labelled as such), then his problem goes away. Which is where I think a lot of the pathologizing of gender difference comes from.

But, then again, neither is intelligent discourse or social tolerance.

True and horrible it is.

So, to me, the common man's often ill-begotten opinions matter little.

Yeah, but...I guess I'm just one of those people who wants to live in the world and change it (a little). Dumb schmuck that I am, that means I'm obliged to deal with all this ugly stuff.

But this doesn't take away the pain we feel inside. This pain--a result of the obssessive-compulsive nature of the drive at the root of our need to express our gender identity the way we do--is a faithful companion in the lives of most of us. And it's no secret that chronic pain (even, or especially, chronic mental pain) can lead to a whole concatenation of ills; loneliness, depression, self-alienation, unmanageable anger and bitterness, substance abuse, suicidal ideation, you name it. This is the combat we face. Every. Single. Day.

Sure. I recognise that description, if not in its particulars at least in its essentials. I just kind of get fed up with facing it in just the kind of intensity that I do.

However, there is hope. I lie when I say the pain is due to the nature of the drive. It's really due to a combination of that, most assuredly, and the plain, simple fact of social intolerance. Even the psychiatric establishment is beginning (finally) to recognize--as it did for homosexuality, back in the 70s--that it's not the gender variance per se that causes a gender-variant person distress (in fact, quite to the contrary, the act of dressing--or expressing our gender identity--itself brings many of us pleasure) but, rather, the fact that most other people, our loved ones included, cannot tolerate this "freakish" eccentricity. Now, that smarts... especially given the essential harmlessness (and, to us, benefit) of gender variance. And, as people are wont to do when they feel uncomfortable, they turn gender variance into an object of derision. Thus, our very real suffering is played for laughs. But, you know what? I'd rather this than murder. It's surely the case that the Gwen Aurojos and Teena Brandons of the world would've preferred to be scoffed at rather than outright killed for the way in which they chose to express their gender identity.

I think it's a kind of war we're in the middle of - a multi-generational war fought out in Society about what the meaning of "Men" and the meaning of "Women" is. I mean that's what Teena Brandon was killed for (if you want to give it a meaning).

Having said this, yes, there's still a downside to being who we are. Nobody wants to be a slave to their own drives. And nobody wants to be ostracized. So what do most of us do? We allow ourselves the guilty pleasure of becoming the slaves to our own drives alone and in the privacy of our own homes.

I don't necessarily agree that dressing up means that I'm "a slave" to my TG drive - I mean, to me, it feels more like a negotiated position between that drive and the "me" that writes this stuff etc..

But this just ain't gonna cut it for very long. Not for many of us, anyway. Why? Simply because the social element of any identity--including transgender identity--requires that we be seen, gazed upon, and acknowledged by others for who and what we are or feel ourselves to be. While the construction of our identity (and, as in the Tylenol television ad, this can be "whatever your normal is") is a personal, individual labour, the expression of that identity, on the other hand, is an eminently social act.

Yup, because "No man [girl] is an island" (even if "[S]he's a peninsular" - drug induced Jefferson Airplane, After Bathing at Baxters insight).

I put this forth: we are not crossdressers or transsexuals if nobody else in the world but ourselves sees this to be the case. We are not transgressing anything whatsoever if nobody sees us. Ah, but CJ (you may say), whenever I'm home alone, fully dressed, and gazing at my reflection in the hallway mirror, I can see myself, so, in the end, I still know that I'm transgressing, that I'm a crossdresser. Not so, I'll argue. The person you see in the mirror, when dressed, is an Other. The girl you see in the mirror is the projected ideal of your own self. And your own self, the one still situated (imprisoned?) in your body, is the one gazing at the transgressive reflection in the mirror. In a way, we become jealous or envious of the "woman in the mirror" even though she and we are one.

It is an Other. I don't know who this person is. Certainly, in part it is a projected ideal. But then there's a part that seems to know stuff I don't know. Stuff I would really like to know and want to get to. That part I'd say I'm envious and jealous of because it's separate from me. There is a process I have to go to to find my way to "her".

It's that very act of gazing upon the reflected woman that tells us or lets us know that we're transgressors, that we're crossdressers. And oh! how pine for the gaze of some Other upon us, some Other that isn't just our "imprisoned" self! That, too, brings pain. And a terrible loneliness.

A terrible loneliness.

Much of this loneliness can be, at least partially, evacuated when we come out of the closet, so to speak. When an Other--a wholly Other--sees us for who we are, it's as if dark clouds lift. We feel free and happy and content. For many, this can be achieved by coming to an online forum in order to share thoughts, feelings, and experiences with like-minded (or like-afflicted?) souls. For others, it requires taking a walk on the wild side in the "real" world. Either way, these are necessary steps on the road to both wholeness and wellness.

Be well and be whole. The best way to do this is to just be. The wagging tongues will eventually tie themselves in a knot and be silenced. It may take a while but we're heading that way.

Love,
CJ

With me, I think there's a confusion between reorganising my identity in terms of what I do and it terms of how I do it. And in the moment (long moment) that I'm changing there is a lacuna - That is to say a period in my life in which I'm alone. It's not just loneliness, but it's really stuff I have to do alone. It's in that sense I talk about this place as easing my darkness. But maybe that'll change. Maybe it has to.

I think I'm basically coming to a time when the feminine, creative parts of me come to the surface and are the means through which I interact with the world - rather than, as it's been in the past, the masculine, analytic parts. I'm a pretty able person and need to get recognition for that. I think, in the end, the recognition I crave will come (or won't come) through a sublimated recognition of female side of me in things that I write - and like I sort of intimated above, the woman in the mirror knows stuff about that the male part doesn't know.

I know there is a resistance to me dressing up and going into the outside world as a woman. But I'm kind of easy about where I am now.

Hi CJ--
That's a great post, CJ. There is a lot in there to process.

When I say "education,", I really mean "self-education." Obviously, this is no instant pain relief medication. It's more of a time-release capsule. And this is true of everyone, crossdresser or not; it takes time and patience and courage and determination to become the person we can be, without drowning in the process.

The Internet is so important in this way. It used to be that we had no idea there was anyone else out there, and if they were out there, it was not easy to find them.

While it may be true, as Nietzsche said, that whatever doesn't kill us only makes us stronger, it can nevertheless also be the case that whatever doesn't kill us can also drive us mad. As it did poor ol' Fred, who may have gazed into the abyss far too long for his own good. Because, of course, and as he also said, when you gaze into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.

I never read the quote about "the abyss also gazes into you," but I'm glad to have learned about it. It always comes back to processing. We're all exposed to traumatic or stressful experiences; no one escapes that. I wish there were better methods of erasing these experiences entirely, exactly the way we delete old files that are no longer needed on our computers.

I know this brings up issues of abuse of such methods--wiping out memories in movies like "Total Recall," or "the Manchurian Candidate."
But the horror stories are a diversion--I'm going to make a strong statement and say that we'll all be better off if we can learn to delete whole sections of our memories.

It's not easy being "differently gendered." Gender variance isn't held in very high esteem by the common man.

No, in spite of all the talk of how the Indians respected the two-spirited people, there's not much evidence of that in our societies.

...it's no secret that chronic pain (even, or especially, chronic mental pain) can lead to a whole concatenation of ills; loneliness, depression, self-alienation, unmanageable anger and bitterness, substance abuse, suicidal ideation, you name it. This is the combat we face. Every. Single. Day.

Which comes back to the fact that when we come out, others around us are shocked and upset by our "sudden" change. But what they can't experience is that we've had to live with it for years on end, facing it every day. It's news to them, whereas it's just another day in a 30 or 40 year war, for us.

... it's not the gender variance per se that causes a gender-variant person distress (in fact, quite to the contrary, the act of dressing--or expressing our gender identity--itself brings many of us pleasure) but, rather, the fact that most other people, our loved ones included, cannot tolerate this "freakish" eccentricity. Now, that smarts... especially given the essential harmlessness (and, to us, benefit) of gender variance

.

There is benefit in it, which needs to be acknowledged even in a post about the dark sides of it.

Anything that sets us apart from our social setting usually brings us pain, even the simplest of things. This is especially true when we're children--other children are relentless in their pursuit of differences to notice and ridicule.

We allow ourselves the guilty pleasure of becoming the slaves to our own drives alone and in the privacy of our own homes. But this just ain't gonna cut it for very long. Not for many of us, anyway. Why? Simply because the social element of any identity--including transgender identity--requires that we be seen, gazed upon, and acknowledged by others for who and what we are or feel ourselves to be.

This is true, and it's painful to acknowledge that it's true. It was this truth that hit me at the same time as my need to dress again. At 49, I could see that it would never be enough to experience this new gender in private. It would have to be public, or not at all. And not doing it at all was killing me. The logic of this was inescapable; I was going to have to go out, if I wanted to dress.

While the construction of our identity (and, as in the Tylenol television ad, this can be "whatever your normal is") is a personal, individual labour, the expression of that identity, on the other hand, is an eminently social act.

I've also said that we're artists, too, and like any artists, we want to show off our creations. Of course people can be shy, but who really wants to hide their paintings or their poems? We like to see what other people think and feel when they encounter our work.

And oh! how pine for the gaze of some Other upon us, some Other that isn't just our "imprisoned" self! That, too, brings pain. And a terrible loneliness.

As much pain as this quote may cause for many here, it needs to be said.
It may be a reminder that we need to do something differently if we're going to change our experience of this.

Be well and be whole. The best way to do this is to just be. The wagging tongues will eventually tie themselves in a knot and be silenced. It may take a while but we're heading that way.

In line with the hopefulness of this closing quote, I will say what I've said at other times. I was prepared to pay a high price for what I do, going out in the world as a woman. I was pleasantly shocked to find out that I didn't have to pay a high price at all. In my case, the benefits far outweighed any price that did have to be paid. I've already talked of my dark side days, so I can put that positive note in this reply.

'Nita

Hi all,

This is quite the thoughtful thread. Lots of material to digest.

Anita,

He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.

Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil, Aphorism 146

Love,
CJ

Anthony it's a great topic, and there are some incredibly thoughtful and wonderful replies here.

It seems that there are two types of negatives. One is all the societal reaction and all the stuff we internalizes. Societal rejection, spousal rejection, our own feelings of being rejectable. That gets talked about a lot here and is a big issue.

The other is something you touched on and gets refered to here sometimes. The idea that crossdressing can feel like a compulsion. It gets expressed when people ask is crossdressing addictive and that sort of thing.

Addiction is an enemy of life. So it's pretty easy to see why something like drug addiction is an addiction. It gets more difficult when we talk about things like compulsive eating, where the source of life (food) becomes and enemy of life (morbid obesity) I'd put crossdressing in that later category. Merely liking to wear womens clothes is not automatcially destructive. Inconvenient perhaps, and subject to a lot of destructive reactions by society. But when we start organizing our lives around dressing, neglecting other things we want to do because of our dressing, we need to ask is there something inside ourselves that is out of balance.

Once more this is a topic for the crossdresser, and not the transexual for whom crossdressing is really just wearing the correct c lothes.

I really liked CJs comment about the person we see in the mirror. There is something there, something in the man I am that likes to wear womens clothing, that is good, and it's something I don't really know how to put into words. Perhaps I came closest when we were doing the girl autobiographies.

Zari

Girl autobiographies? I think that must be something before my time, but sounds interesting.

Paula, I realy enjoyed the girl autobiographes. Here is the link http://crossdressers-haven.com/forums/v ... hp?t=10837

You might want to have some time to read them as they go for 13 pages.

Leeza

Ralitsa wrote:Of course there is a dark side, and we all deal with it in our various ways. Before "that one" filed for divorce, I will really say that I was tormented by my desire and did struggle to repress it. She is the sort who thinks she is holier than everyone else, and tried to use it as leverage against me. In the interest of my kids I tried to do what I could to appease her. But in the end, I realized that she believed she held a weapon that she could use to get everything she wanted from me. And at that moment I called her bluff, so she filed for divorce.

I don't know how useful this is going to be, but Ralitsa's statement does bring up stuff. When I was young (4), coming back from my grandmother after being put in a nightgown, I have a memory of dressing up in a slip in front of my mother. She seemed to like it, but later on I got the sense she was trying to kind of impale me with my feminine desires. Like every day, when I came back from school from when I was 6 till when I was 9, she use to get into this self-righteous haranguing mode and really make mince-meat of me. Somewhere it was like she was saying "You effeminate little git, it's because of you my life is ruined." There wasn't anything explicit, but that was the definite message. And it went on and on (and on) for 3 years. So that's like really the darkest period of my life.

I could never work out just why or how what I was (or had done) had had that sort of effect on her, but the conviction with which she did all this stuff carried a terrible weight. In the end, I came to the conclusion that she was just winding herself up into a state and then convincing herself (and me) of her rectitude. To me what Ralitsa describes and what I went through sound like they come from people doing similar things, people who enjoy the power of their own emotional rectitude.

The message was I was a feminised=emasculated=useless male and so impotent as a person. This puts my Cding at the centre of my existence, amongst other things. She kept trying to tell me it was. But the thing is I don't think it is at the centre of my existence. My reading of CJs post is also that this is where I differ from her, in how central the Cding is for me. So, for me, it's much closer to Zari's position - as something that I have to get in balance with the rest of my life - or the rest of me.

When I was in my twenties I got rejected by just about everyone and everything - and that point the Cding fantasies became so relentless and oppressive I thought I was going to go mad. Like my life was so empty that, in desperation, my unconscious was trying to fill the gap with the CDing - something that it just wasn't up to. So again, this is like saying that, important as the CDing is, it still couldn't address the absolutely central issues in my life (at least not then).

So really the moral of this post is I have experienced dark stuff to do with the Cding which actually originates elsewhere. But I do agree with Zari about the dark side of the drive.