Crossdressers-Haven.com

Conventions are that men are not as women are and can only wear clothing that styles them in a certain way so that regardless of who they are inside or what they prefer they are only allowed to wear the rougher manly clothing of their sex and they are only allowed in spite of how they may feel internally to be within the limits of where men are the colors we are allowed, the mannerisms, the voice, the narrow confines of emotion men are limited to display, the role we are to live, and what we are allowed to desire and to like. These are all barriers constructed by and enforced by our society that are artificial which make no allowance for any who do not fit within these. Should they fall outside these limits from birth on we are subjected to conditioning, instruction, and shaming which are designed to make us feel insecure about ourselves psychologically should we admit that we desire what is only allowed to women. Step outside and not only is our conditioning designed to make us feel insecure but everyone around us are allowed to step in to punish us, and to shame us, and to prevent us from being able to proceed against their barriers.

But what of those both males and females who are not able to fit within the narrow confines allowed them. We either go on feeling frustrated, and distressed or we cast these conventions away. Society luckily really is beginning to make allowances for us, many disagree but in time their objections will die out. If we fail to seize our right to be who we are inside even if it is only a come-go sense within us...then that is our own damn fault! Our own fear...the fear is deeply ingrained and the conditioning in of deeply held insecurities within us are very real and very powerful. Our society has brainwashed us very well, they have done a number on us which for many has succeeded in ruining our lives. I am 61 and still dealing with them and am still insecure and afraid so deep are these conditioned within myself.

Get down to it...this sense of who I am is a simple factual reality for me, and when you think about it what is the big deal with my wearing clothing prescribed only for women by convention? There is none and because this is who I am and this is where I fit in there is no reason anymore to continue to hold myself within the confines of a place that I certainly do not fit and should never have been made to be.

True enough I sway back and forth...I am able to be my female self yet at other times swaying to my male I am also a man and no one can is allowed to use my inner female to shame or exclude me from being there. So, I really do and I really am part of a minority of people who fit within both the female and the male world.

So! Why can't we fit in where we fit in and be supported and welcomed by those who are as we are? I want to truly live as and be where I should be... Visit with and spend time talking to and working with and living and enjoy sharing in the experience of being who I am...personally there is sway and this dual world but men do not spend time together they are lone actors while women hang out. Men may talk but half of what they find of interest is beyond me...intensive detailed opinions and knowledge on sports is a huge yawn for me and I do not know much about that or hunting or auto mechanics of an advanced level...yet this is also true for me on the female side...needle work or any kind? most all to do with babies, children and biology I do not possess.... I do not fit perfectly either way being I am someone who is partly there in both ways. I do feel closer to women in many ways and much prefer being here. I do need my girl time and seems everyday if I am there and can get it.

Anne, I have asked you this before and I am going to do it again. You are generalizing and this is no good for you or good information for this forum. Society is changing but it is continued generalization like this post that do no good to expanding society views. If this is what you think of your situation I think you need to expand your views as much as the general society that you are generalizing.

Your statement of "they are only allowed to wear the rougher manly clothing of their sex" is way off. There are many more "male" clothes that are softer then they use to be. While I do not buy the higher end male clothes if you look into these you find a lot of the soft and comfy fabrics often in these. A while back I was trying on some jeans in Kohls and JCP, and I had to double check they were guy jeans. The jeans were stretchy like femme jeans and were a lower waist style. And there are many other examples out there in shirts, underwear, pants, socks.... I work on a college campus and see the clothing more and more guys are wearing is more feminine and more nicer fabrics and more bling. When you are in the stores you just need to shop for them and look for them instead of just buying your same old male clothes you have for years.

You can not expect society to change over night. But lets not continue to generalize and push the old society standards while change is happening. Change starts at home. If you expect society to change it's views maybe you need to change your views first.

kimberlys cd
joe in a skirt

Hi,

Society ,

When are people going to wake up, who is this society is----- is it a person or more than one or does it refer to 100, 1000 or 10, s 0f 1000.s well I m a member of all of those I,m an individual yet I can be part of all,

Society did not place on me what I was to be …..I. did that all by myself and the great thing is My Mom helped me to be who I am both then when she was alive and unbeknown at that time what I am now.
society did not shape me it did not dress me or feed me or teach me people I know helped me to be who I am they gave me tools to work with they gave me knowlage so I could work things out,,

Is any of this society,,,,,,,NO <<<<< society did not appear on our door step and say ,,,,I have to do this or that. what get,s me more than any thing is so many blame society what the hell for because they wont take charge of their own life .

I was the one who walked down the road and told every one what I was going to do I did not hire someone else to do my dirty work I did it I went and got off my bloody backside and spoke to people I knew and other.s by the 10,s of 1000,s nation wide ,

We have our Maori and Polynesian people have a look at what they wear get an insight to them as a people you may find its not about society its about each person .

so men can only wear the rough clothing sorry that's not true in fact its so far from the truth, its a lie silk shirt,s or blouse,s are worn by men and are the same fabric as womens, no different only the style and shape to fit us, other than that no different,


men and women have worn the same clothes in other country,s for 1000,s of years, if your using western idea,s of fashon how many does that cover 350 years or go to England 1400,s and on look at mens clothes then rethink your thinking your letting your country over rule what went on 100,s of years before. my people go back to 1225 German , Prussian , Scottisch and i,ll concead englisch.

convention to hell with it i dont abide with it as i keep saying i,ll wear what i bloody well wear and how i wear it does not matter, if i join a group i.ll wear the dress code i dont mind at all and at other do,s i,ll wear some thing nice for that. and at other times well what ever,

Women wore pants long before the 2 nd WW and then women were in uniform men have been wearing skirts since long before we did = Scots long before 1225 go back to Roman times and further.

Much of what you have writen this time is a put down and you belive it i dont accept it, you allow others to condistion you to belive lie,s. my people were never shamed or made us feel insecure and no we were not punished we did not have barriers in front of us, and dare i say it look beyound the english lie.s because thats all they are,, society never did any of this.

a few people did for thier own gain remember that miner point, because that is where it all started,

if what is being said is about clothes and only clothes most women who have an understanding of history will not have an issue .

It,s when men try to be act or live like a woman and try and ...FOOL... others into thinking they are are deluding them selfs in the process with lie apon lie then this is where women get antiy and do not accept men for doing this, that is the issue and the problem.look at it from our side of the coin ,

How would you feel would you just say oh,,,, no big deal you know no probs i dont belive or accept that because you would not accept it or if your wife said i,m going to be a man now after 40 - 50 years and married, you see men only see what they wont to when it changes all hell comes out all different then . see it from a womans perspective and dont blame society and say society wont accepet...i am part of society and live in and am a member of and i see what goes on and i know people to well and they tell me how they feel about all this and what talked about.

Try this get dressed in womens clothes and go join a group or 2 and more go talk with them get involved and i ...MEAN ...get involved do things help the others join both men and women groups get down to the nity grity. and then try and live in our world of women and find out first hand not 2nd hand as that wont work or be of value to you you have to do it your self .

and dont look at myself because that wont work or say i,m a woman any way - female yes i know i am ....yet ....i had to do what other females have had to be accepted it was no easy,er just because i,m a female i still had to grow and be accepted on my own standing it was not given to me on a silver plate i still had to work at it to be accepted, though i was trained in other fields i still had to learn,in many way,s was a lot harder , and thats well known.

...noeleena...

A message to a couple of my GG girl friends I have been sharing and sending pictures...but then I have thought about going on and on about it all may seem like some crazed exhibitionist! ....I should realize I don't go on and on posting and talking about the less exciting other part of who I am...It's boring. It's true feeling the freedom to come out and be more open is exciting for me. I am able to just enjoy living. To be able to express who I am free of constraint. I can manage it with my comfort level as my guide, if I am ready to share it with someone or to go out or not, it's the best outcome. And I will over time. But realize I should stop messaging as if I am an exhibitionist. I'm not...I am just finally happy with it...it's a new feeling and hard not to share it with those I am able to share it with. SORRY....

It takes time...and sometimes you have to step back and think about it all as if you were a third person objectively. It is reasonable that I am finally very pleased happy and excited to be where I am. Yes, I have been dressing probably 6 or more hours every day this week, see no reason not to continue it is just up to me! I wake up and shortly find a very real connection into my female self and so I move there and am perfectly happy being able to live my mornings as a woman free of everything but the satisfaction and the joy of being able to be who I am inside openly and freely. It is the most amazing and wonderful thing and my gg girlfriends are there fully supportive. It is enough to just know I have BFF's and am also accepted. There is no need to message them they are there for me every bit as much as my BFF's here are here for me. I am able to be! We are all just wanting to be free to be who we are and to live our lives and I am really doing it!
There is hope that I really will find someone who really does love me and all of who I am...it is a real hope.

Kimberly, I see it, I did try panty briefs but found they tended to wear out in the front while regular briefs tend to last but I should buy more. I am not really into casual I suppose my guy side is kind of a stick in the mud comfortable presenting a classic guy casual that is dressy with a bit of style and I do bling...wedding band, a man's jewelry watch, my necklace with the gold anchor, but shy away from ear rings and bracelet so I am not over the top giving too much away. There are softer stretchy and comfortable guy things available and being someone who expresses both sides should be more open to such. Thing is I am listening and I am growing, I believe I am moving past all of this. There is hope for me yet my friend!

Noleena...I think I have made progress and have moved past my original post on this thread. I am feeling so much better.
but you say..."It,s when men try to be act or live like a woman and try and ...FOOL... others into thinking they are are deluding them selfs in the process with lie apon lie then this is where women get antiy and do not accept men for doing this, that is the issue and the problem.look at it from our side of the coin ,"

I hope you are not trying to say that I am not who I am on the inside... after having to have to live with this inside myself over my entire life. I am not trying to act or to live like a woman and I am certainly not trying to FOOL anyone into thinking that I am. I am not deluding myself what am I supposed to do have a lobotomy to excise whatever it is that makes me as I am? or have ECT until I am numb brained and can not remember who I am?

No my friend... No. I know I am not a woman certainly not physically and I have never claimed to be, even surgery would not change that. But inside my brain something female is there, I cannot help that the only way to stop that in my head would be death. There are indeed a very large number of women who have a problem but their problem exists because they do not understand us or who we are or why we are as we are. There exists something within myself that is very like any other woman, and there are ways in which I am not as other men. I am not faking it, I am not deluding myself, and I am certainly not attempting to fool anyone! I can't help who I am If I were otherwise I would not be this way but I have never had any choice about any of this other than my having to come to terms with it, to find acceptance, and to finally be happy and at peace. If women have a problem with it, or men it is because they have no experience with this because they have never felt they are anything else but 100% male or female and being so they deny who we are as being possible. Well, I am sorry but they are simply wrong. We have always existed all through history...just as various sexual orientations have. Because you are only able to read what I have written I want to make clear I see you as a friend and hope you do not interpret this as anger rather than my providing what I have lived with and know based on that. I am not one to pose or to fake feminine mannerisms or vocalization. I do not pretend and that is playing pretend. who I happen to be I am.

Society is everybody who surrounds us from our parents, siblings extended family friends bosses co workers to people in our town etc...society. Maybe the puritanical United States is different but socialization conditioning and shaming and outright punishment are used in our society. What blanket do little girls get? usually some fluffy thing with pink in it or pale pastels. little boys get something blue. Girls are treated more gently than boys and from the differences in toys to clothing on up to deny that is to be blind it is there and it happens. that is conditioning. girls help mom while boys tend to help dad in the yard. In school physical education is segregated or was when I was in school. In sports and finally in career paths...and marriage and on and on and on. I certainly was teased I had a shirt that was not a dark red people commented on my pink shirt! Pink is a girl's color. Was it successful? Well shopping if asked to hold my purse it makes a boy feel very self conscious and insecure he has to make sure everyone knows it's definitely not his purse! to deny that socialization conditioning shaming and even punishment do not happen from the cradle and on up into adulthood who lives in the United States would be in serious denial. Yes this is a fact there is no debate and look it up there are numerous research articles on all of this.

Yes as I was growing up inside part of myself was suppressed because it definitely wasn't male.

Hi ,

Sometimes I do see differences between countrys and you have pointed many out over the time we have been nattering for us in NZ pink if we look at 40,s through 60.s is a boys colour and blue girls .
I did bring up one of our teachers wore pink at school and as you know was gay.. not that had any thing to do with it yet it did come in over the next few years that was interesting.

Feminine .

I know some guys who will be called known as and are quite feminine , some are gay and I know a few, I do have some gay friends as far as I,m concerened they are ...just... my friends like other people I know I don't put them in a box I really don't care . friends are friends to me.

Now I also know some are === my friends ….. are very feminine I wont say in every aspect of who they are, yet I will say they are more feminine than I am now that does not say much for me does it and they could dress as women and look lovely you see what I,m saying they would put me to shame oh well I can wear it tough life ...a... yet they are not women and don't wont to be .

in their makeup there is that little part that makes them that way and really it,s nice. and they are just who they are,

Yes I do understand people and I know its very hard for some to just be them selfs. you and other,s here included, for myself I,m a nutcase and push buttons pull lever,s and say get lost and don't try and tell me what to do because I will react . okay I wont stand on a sliding peace of ground or that slippery slope because I was not brought up to just accept what I was told in fact one of the best teachers I had in the 60,s at school said to me if you don't understand then ask......so I did and what he said was ask and keep on asking till you get it......search look and dig and don't stop.. and don't take no for an answer or be fobbed off so I took his advice and I have found out so much and learned.

In your makeup part of what makes you ...you was there at conception ,,,, okay....and you have done detail on that, what the issue is you need to take that and act on what you know feel see in your self what drives you..and what you …….mean to you...….the biggest issue is fear , fear of other,s fear of what some will say and how do you know what they will say no proving yet what you need to do is set a time frame of ………

THIS IS WHAT IM GOING TO DO. then cast all >>> ( and what does fear mean , total nothing it does not exist… you have made it exsit and you allow it to stop you dead in your tracks and this applys in so much of our lives, ) >>> fear out...…

Will you look back and say …..why oh why did I not just listen and get on and do what I needed to do.

If I thought you were trying to fool others I would not waste my time writing . and I,m not .
I also know you have progressed and had to work through a lot of issues, I just think well know its sad when people can not just be them self,s one reason I have and do help people ,

I also know its not allways in writing that is the best way to talk I much prefer to be face to face, any way I know we are limited to this form and carry on .


...noeleena...