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What does it feel like to be a woman?

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 6:25 am
by VickiCD
Hi All.

In recent light of my best friend (Steve) situation, I have taken much thought regarding this issue and I wanted to share my feelings with all of you.

What does it feel like to be a woman?

This is a question that should be of profound importance to the CD community, although I have never seen it discussed in any depth. It may seem self-evident that, as a man, I simply cannot know what a woman feels. It may even be true that, as an individual, I can never truly know what any other individual feels. Yet it is commonplace to hear CDs talking about their 'female persona', their 'feminine side', or the woman 'inside them'. I don't want to deny that all these men feel something but how do they know it is anything like what a woman would feel? How do we even know that women feel differently to men?

I think that a significant part of the pleasure of cross-dressing for me is that, in some strange way, it frees me to experience myself in a different way. I can be more sensual, more auto-erotic and I can feel things that I don't usually feel: like feeling feminine. The more I cross-dress, the more this experience of myself spills over into my 'drab' times but it is still strongly associated with the dressing. Is this experience anything like what a woman feels about herself? Is this even the same experience that other CDer’s feel when they cross-dress?

In the end, I believe we can never know the answer. However, I believe that this feeling of femininity or of being a woman is very real and that it even has a certain validity. While a man can never really know what it feels like to be a woman, I believe there are some aspects of the experience of femininity that we can share. In particular, it is a sensation of being physically attractive as a woman that CDer’s crave and seek, through cross-dressing, to achieve.

It is the feeling of presenting to ourselves and the world as an attractive female that we call femininity and I want to argue that this limited way of experiencing the female condition is at the heart of what it is to be a crossdresser and is also the source of much of the confusion about gender identity that afflicts us.

If crossdressers feel the same way that women feel, we would expect the way they describe their feelings to be similar. There are so many dimensions to this that it is hard to know where to start.

One of the most common self-reports from crossdresser’s is that they feel so "feminine" when dressed. Do women report the same thing? I think they do - not so often perhaps and only when they are really dressed up in something special - but I have heard it often enough to believe it. So what do women mean by it and do crossdresser’s mean the same thing?

Feeling "feminine" is not like feeling sexy, or handsome, or 'cool', or any of the other things a man normally feels when he dresses up in his own clothes. Probably the nearest feeling a man could have that is still more-or-less gender-appropriate would be to feel 'elegant' but this is still a long way from feminine.

Feeling feminine is a heady blend of feeling pretty, desirable, submissive, delicate, touchable. It is about seeing one's self as something that could be desired and cherished for its very vulnerability. About relishing and emphasising one's own attractiveness and desirability. It is also very much about having the physical attributes and appearance of a woman.
How do I know? Well, of course, I don't. I only know how I feel when I'm feeling feminine and that the way I describe it seems to coincide with how some women describe it.

Another very common self-report by crossdresser’s is that they feel so much more "natural" when dressed. In reading such reports one can almost feel the sense of relief, the draining away of a pent-up tension as the female persona supplants the male. So we need to ask ourselves whether real women also feel 'natural' when dressed in gender-appropriate ways.

I think the answer to this is not very clear. Although there are clearly many women who are comfortable in feminine clothes, I have often heard women state that they feel more comfortable and more relaxed in traditionally masculine clothing. Some have also told me they feel very uncomfortable, exposed and even unpleasantly vulnerable in particularly 'dressy' outfits of the kind I would die for.

The situation is complicated. Personally, I regard the feeling of 'naturalness' that comes with cross-dressing as, at least partly, a feeling of relief and relaxation such as any addict feels when their craving is at last satisfied. The rest of the feeling is the reduction in the constant tension we experience between our true physical appearance and the appearance our instincts tell us we should have and which we can approximate when dressed.

If crossdresser’s feel the same way that a women feel, we would expect behaviours that reflect their inner states to be the same as those of women who feel the same way. There is, for example, lots of evidence in the psychological literature that women and men really do feel things differently.

An example I saw recently was the finding that men cry less than women, that men cry for different reasons than women (more often crying with happiness than with sadness for instance) and that women have more reasons to stop crying than men (for example, through being comforted). Of course, such differences might be learnt rather than innate but that doesn't matter. The point is that, truly to feel like a woman, the crossdresser would need to experience this different pattern of emotions. The fact is that we don’t.

I believe we cannot fully share the feeling of being a woman, not only because of the distinct differences in brain chemistry, hormonal make-up and physiology that nature handed us but also because of the very different lives that males and females experience. None of these things can be undone by dressing up and walking differently.

I believe we have many drives or urges that are part of the physiology of our brains. They make us social animals, they make us eat, they lead to sex and reproduction. Yet we experience these instinctive drives. They are not entirely subconscious. We feel hunger, we feel sexual arousal, we feel loneliness. Some of these feelings are integral to our gender identities as men or women. The drive that makes me competitive with other men, the urges that make me ogle women who pass in the street, the instincts that drive me to copulate, are all part of my identity as a man. To present to the world as an attractive female is, likewise, part of a woman’s gender identity.

As crossdresser’s, when we feel our inappropriate urge to present ourselves as an attractive female, we probably experience it in exactly the same way that women do—as something we—and they—would call femininity, or being attractive, or feeling like a woman. The fact that is only part of the full experience of being female escapes most of us and leads to confusions such as feeling that we are women "inside" while at the same time having primarily heterosexual desires.

Yet, our presented sexual self is such a big part of a human being’s identity, it is quite understandable how the confusion arises. Couple such a dysphoric instinct with below-average masculine drives in other areas (half the world is below average by definition!) and it is easy to see how many man would feel they were meant to have been women really and that their masculinity is some kind of horrible mistake.

So I have come back to the conclusion, at last. It is the actual sensation of presenting to ourselves and the world as an attractive female that we call femininity and this limited way of experiencing the female condition is both at the heart of what it is to be a crossdresser and also is the source of much of our confusion about gender identity.

I feel this to be of key importance to the whole experience of crossdressing and I hope you will share your own thoughts with me and the other ladies of this website.

Love

VickiCD

***()***

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 7:19 am
by Virginia
Vicki,
Very diplomatic, honey!
Unless one is "born in the worng body" which leads hopefully to SRS then as crossdressers = males, hetrosexuals, we can strive to look pretty, feminine and even to react as feminine, but to think.... well maybe marginally. I have used the example of my wife and a lot of other GG's.
" Hey, Hon, what time is it?" response " You know I saw where Radio Shack is having a sale on batteries, and if you had fixed that battery operated clock in the attic, perhpas we could clean it up and give it to Mary as she really needs something to spice up her kitchen, what with the new stove her husband just bought. I understand he got it on sale a Sears but it sure looks nice and Oh!by the way they have invited us over for supper next week to see the pictures of there trip to Hawaii. I think I will wear my new slacks, but I really don't have a top to go with it so I think I'll go down to Macy's an see if they have something to go with it.Bye dear, have a nice day!"
Feeling, Acticng and Thinking feminine: Well two out ot three ain't bad!
I am going to print off and read your post and may have more to say later and see what my sisters also have to say!
Love,
Deborah

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 7:26 am
by Estefania
Hello Vicki.

This is certainly a very interesting point. I don't think I can touch all of your ideas, so I will focus in just a few of them.

Feeling "Feminine" as you describe it: "Feeling feminine is a heady blend of feeling pretty, desirable, submissive, delicate, touchable. It is about seeing one's self as something that could be desired and cherished for its very vulnerability. About relishing and emphasising one's own attractiveness and desirability. It is also very much about having the physical attributes and appearance of a woman."

As I'm sure you are aware, this definintion of what it is to feel feminine is not going to be the same definition many others would describe as their own experience. For many, feeling feminine doesn't have anything to do with the perception of the rest of the world. For them, feeling feminine may be all about "feeling" the clothes. They can feel "feminine" wearing panties and their drabbies. They can feel feminine even though they would never be able to look anything like a woman.

Now, the part I guess gives away the basic issue in your definition is the part about feeling "submissive". Why? Because it reveals (to me) how for you (and mostly, for everybody) the definition of what it is "feminine" is no more than a series of stereotypes. Who defines what it is "pretty"? or "desirable"? etc. Why should women be "submissive" to be "feminine"? Because that is what our society dictates. And funny how most of us, CD's, who claim to be some sort of "warriors" breaking away the social stereotypes by ignoring the rules of society about clothing, mostly seem to jump from the "what it is to be a man" mold only to fall for the "what it is to be feminine (by society standards)" mold. Same, why should only a feminine being look/be vulnerable?

Why couldn't a very feminine individual be strong, assertive, etc? Is that because most people will associate those qualities as masculine, and most CD's will try to deny or reject having those qualities?

Answering your initial question... I don't think anybody, but a woman, can really feel what it is to be a woman. Even the most successful, beautiful, etc. CD can only feel how it is like to be a man who may look like a pretty woman. No more.

And still, it all should be only a personal thing. I have seen many, many times, a very silly thing... Some CD telling others how she is "more feminine" because her favorite color has always been pink, or how she can walk on higher heels or any other dumb thing as those. As you can see, those are extreme manifestations of the same stereotypes of what we (in general) consider to be feminine.

I can't comment on your idea of "naturalness", because it is not something that I experience. At least not for many years. CDing may have been a way to relieve the stress, but only the stress created by the obsession of wanting to CD, in the first place. I think that people needs to be aware that if they use CDing to escape from reality, the results will be about the same as if they were using alcohol or drugs or shopping... reality will still be there, and may be even more opressive.

About what you said here... "I believe we cannot fully share the feeling of being a woman, not only because of the distinct differences in brain chemistry, hormonal make-up and physiology that nature handed us but also because of the very different lives that males and females experience. None of these things can be undone by dressing up and walking differently." ~~ I totally agree. Nothing to add.

However, I don't agree on what you said about how trying to look like a nice looking woman is an expression of a woman's gender identity only. People have different motivations to do things. There is no "one size fits all" in psychology.

I partially agree with your conclusioin. I don't like the generalization on how what you say should be "the heart of what it is to be a crossdresser". Becuase it is pretty much like saying that if anybody doesn't fit into what you said, that would mean they are not "authentic" CD's. And also, I don't think that all CD's have the same confusion about gender identity you talk about.

Lets see what others will be adding to this topic... It is rather interesting. :o)

Gaby

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:27 am
by Rebecca
Hi girls,

I have wondered about this myself on and off for.... ever.
The only input I can really add is how I feel myself. Since way back I had this longing to express myself differently to how I was being molded. When I was in my teens I wore hippy clothes, though they were becoming a bit dated. I liked the feel, colour, and to some degree how I looked. Yet if in expressing myself I used 'girlie' mannerisms, I would immediately be called a 'puff' by guys and girls. This being a blanket term used in those days for anything a bit softer than 'macho'. I believe one part of my character has always leaned towards effeminate, yet at other times I am very boisterous, not macho, just physical and excitable.
I look just like the average bloke in the street and this often hurts me. Inside I feel ... erm.. slinky as oppsosed to stocky. Rebecca and dressing helps me to realize that feeling.
If my personality was on a pendulum, then I was raised to keep it pretty much close to the uppermost swing of the arc. This pendulum is heavy and takes work to hold it there, I want to, it's time to let it go, relax and swing wherever it needs too.

Don't know if any of this helps, but it's the best description I can come up with at the moment

Love to all
Rebecca xxx

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 10:06 am
by CJ
Hi all,

Interesting thread, Vicki. 8)

I tend to agree with much of Gaby's assessment; we too often lock ourselves (our selves) into one or another set of stereotypes... to the point where even an alleged androgyny is itself fast becoming a stereotype.

In the end, your question is very much a philosophical conundrum. Of course, a man will never know what it's like to be a woman nor will a woman ever know what it's like to be a man. Although presentation of self is, by all means, a public affair, identity remains a private thing. So much so, in fact, that even a woman can't really tell what it's like for another woman to be a woman. Biological and psychological imperatives, though common to all, shape each human being, each human life, in a different way.

Ultimately, I can only say what it's like to be me. The hard part (and it seems that three out of every four posts on this forum try to deal with this) is how to tell others who I am in such a way that they'll understand.

If you could get Marie Curie, Amelia Earhart, Winnie Mandela, Anaïs Nin, k.d. lang, Benazir Bhuto, and Marilyn Monroe to post, here, their take on what it's like to be a woman, you'd get seven very different answers.

I'm very curious to see what some of the others think about this. It would be fun to have SO input also.

Again, Vicki, great topic idea. Thanks!

Love,
CJ

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 11:17 am
by Kathy
As others have said, I can only speak to what it feels like to be me. I agree with much of what both Gaby and CJ stated so I won't try to elaborate on that.

I can only say that, although I enjoy the look and feel of feminine clothing, I have never identified myself in any way as a female other than the name I use here in the forum. Unlike others here, my personality doesn't change depending on how I'm dressed. But, I still consider myself to be a crossdresser.

Some may make the arguement that, since I have never done the full makeover with makeup, wig, jewelry, etc., I don't understand what it really feels like. I would accept the validity of that arguement as I really don't understand what that feels like. But the fact remains that I have never, do not now and probably never will feel the need to do that.

But I still face the same social stigma that everyone else here feels. I still get lumped into the same stereotype. I still face the same internal struggle of self-acceptance and self-identification.

So, just because I don't "feel like a woman" doesn't necessarily mean that I am not a crossdresser. It simply means I am different.

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 12:23 pm
by Loretta Ann
Hi all,

I to am closer in line with what Gabby and CJ have stated. The presentation of myself to the world as an attractive female that we call femininity has nothing to do with me experiencing the female condition, and is not at the heart of what it is to be a cross-dresser for me.

I do feel far more at home when cross-dressed according to the way I think is right for me at any given time. In other words it does feel so right, enabling me to be far more comfortable, than has ever been possible for me dressed in male clothing.

I am not so sure that I really want, or need to know what it feels like to be a woman, I think instead I just need to feel right about who I am, what ever that may be. I think wanting to be a woman confuses the issue and is probably more of a hindrance than a blessing.

While that may not true for all, it is true in my situation.

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 4:50 pm
by Elizabeth
Hi girls,

I am not so certain that this has anything to do with feeling feminine since I do not now know, nor can I ever know what it is to feel feminine. I have heard my wife and other women say that having a child is what makes them feel feminine. Doing that, that only a women can do.

I consider how we dress as an expression of who we are. More to ourselves than to others. Our way of saying "this is who I want to be". I have never really considered whether or not I feel feminine when dressed, or have makeup on, or when I come here.

I don't know why I put those first pair of panties on. It was like they becconed me. But as soon as I did, it felt great. Not just the sexual impulses that are triggered by such an experience at such a young age, but feeling good. It made me feel good. That has always been my reason to crossdress.

I don't know that I know what it feels like to be masculine or not, I know what makes me feel good. I guess that is my standard. I don't really care a whole lot about whether or not something is classified by society as masculine or feminine. My standard is what makes me feel good or bad. There are many things considered to be masculine that not only don't make me feel good, they make me feel bad. Being violent makes me feel bad, killing animals makes me feel bad, holding a gun scares me, driving fast scares me, talking about women in a degrading way to show dominance over them makes me feel bad. Also with all my children, me and my wife took turns getting up at night to feed the babies and change them and comfort them.
Even though I worked and she did not, I felt compelled to do this. And as A result I bonded with my kids at a very young age in a way that most men do not. I am not a motorhead and am not interested in working on cars or trucks. I bought a Full size blazer and instead of getting it lifted and putting loud exhaust on it, I bought one that was customized for the dealers wife, who traded it in. Running boards, electric seats, vanity mirrors everywhere.

For me crossdressing is not about dressing, it is about what makes me feel good. It is not my desire to feel feminine as much as my acceptance that I don't feel as masculine as other men apparently do. I enjoy cooking for my wife and kids, or going to the school play. Or just listen to them tell me about thier day. So far what I wear around my home and outside my home only have to do with what makes me feel good. That is the only qualification I have on it. When I do to the doctor today I will be wearing my new sandals. I still have my nails polished, and still wear feminine earrings. I hardly look feminine. But it sure does feel good.

Maybe I just like telling the world that I don't fit into the box they put me in. Perhaps it is that simple.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 7:25 pm
by CJ
Hi all,

Elizabeth,

You bring up a good point. Although I may know what it's like to be a man (well, for me, anyway), I'm not entirely confident in my ability to grasp what masculinity itself is all about. You mention guns and cars and such... I'm just not sure that these things are any less stereotypical than some of the things brought forth in this thread regarding women.

If Vicki's question had been, "What does it feel like to be feminine?" rather than, "What does it feel like to be a woman?", our thinking on this would have to become much more subtle and we'd have no choice but to consider some of the work now being done in various fields, such as social psychology, gender studies, and cultural studies. Vicki's question, however, admits of a more direct answer: we cannot know.

Oddly enough, our identity, our sense of ourself as being a self, is the one thing that tends to vanish or hide whenever we actively set out to pin it down. To borrow from Chuang-tzu (who used this example to speak of happiness), like a butterfly forever eluding our net, our "self" comes to land on our shoulder when we set down that net and just sit in the grass for a while. Or, to use a parallel drawn from quantum physics (and I'll try to make Heisenberg proud, here): if we know the "momentum," the evolving process, of our identity, we cannot then pinpoint its "location," its form, its shape--what we "look like" to ourselves, if you will. It's never the same; it's always changing. Conversely, if we manage to fix, to stop, to crystallize, our identity (its "location"), it then becomes nearly impossible for us know in what ways, exactly, our identity may be evolving (its "momentum"). Now, if we cannot do this even for ourselves, how much more difficult it is, then, to know what it's like to be someone else, anybody else!

All this (rather esoteric crap) just to say, Elizabeth, that I like your way of looking at the issue. It's not about being a man (or masculine) nor about being a woman (or feminine), but about being who you, yourself, are. That's always what it comes down to, for anyone--for everyone!

One comment, though: the difficulty doesn't reside in the fact that your choosing to actively seek out your own pleasure and happiness might be considered by some to be selfish (those that think so aren't being honest with themselves; we all seek this--the pursuit of happiness is such a valued ideal that it's enshrined in your Constitution as an inalienable right), no, the difficulty is seeking out your happiness without infringing upon the right of others to do the same. It's a balancing act (as in the situation with your brother, for example).

Anyway, that was a good point you made, Elizabeth. Thanks. 8)

Love,
CJ

Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:16 am
by Elizabeth
CJ,

I absolutely loved how you worked the uncertainty principle into that. Your writing skills, intellect and intuition always come together in a way that just blows me away.

Love always
Elizabeth

Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:30 am
by CJ
Hi all,

Uh, thanks, Elizabeth! :) Still, as I was telling a friend this morning, I sometimes tend to get lost in my own brain. Oh well, I have no doubt that that very fact is also a part of who I am. Glad you enjoy my meandering musings, girl! 8)

I enjoy your posts also; they're raw (in a good way--you live in your heart) and very honest. Keep on "Elizabething"... it's a joy to watch you move in the world.

Love,
CJ

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:37 pm
by Josey
Hi Vicky and all,

Vicky, thanks so much for starting this thread. It covers a subject that I have often thought about. I used to discuss this with my wife. She once made a statement that she didn't worry when I looked at a really sharp girl because she knew I didn't want her, I wanted to look like her. Most often she was right and I wouldn't admit it if she were wrong! ..rofl..

Two reasons came forward for my wanting to feel like a woman. Those reasons were:
1. Women as a whole have fairly nice trim shapes, at least the ones I look at do. I have always been heavy and "bulky". Dressing made me feel thinner and more attractive (I stay away from mirrors!) so feeling like a woman makes me feel closer to the beauty I see in woman.
2. Women in my life have always been strong emotionally and seemed to be able to put up with life's strains very well. When pressures of life got to be very unbearable, I would retreat to the clothes and feel more like a woman, capable of putting up with the strain I was facing.

Woman have many wonderful qualities that most men grow up admiring. Feeling like a woman is a way of adopting these wonderulf qualities to yourself. Does it work. Maybe not but most of us feel a little closer to the perfection we see in the perfect woman. I myself know very well that all persons have good and bad qualities but when I am dressed, I try to assume all the good I see in womanhood around me. That good spans both physical and mental qualities.

Can any of us actually feel what a woman does? Not only no but - - ! Will we ever be able to? Not until the day comes that we are capable of being a mother as well as a wife as well as walk down the street in heels and a skirt. That day has not come yet. Maybe, when it does (and it probably will), then more of the feelings will be realized but for the time being, all we can do is dream. @@9@@

Time for me to shut up. Thanks for giving me the floor. It was nice to be able to show off my newest skirt. :oops:

(--)

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:48 pm
by CJ
Hi all,

Hey Josey! Where've you been, girl!?!? :-k You're missed! Glad to see you here! 8)

Love,
CJ

Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 6:59 am
by Josey
Hi CJ,

It's a long story which doesn't have an answer yet. As soon as it's over, I'll go into it. I did find it quite funny that, for a two week period, I had to go en drab and it was driving me buggy. At the same time, there have been many periods when I could have dressed but went for much longer periods without doing it. It seems to be like the forbidden fruit!

Whatever. It's great to be back. Thanks for missing me. *;*;*

(--)

Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 3:05 pm
by Marda
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