Crossdressers-Haven.com

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CJ wrote:Hi all,

Sophie,

Thanks for the interest. Sadly, no, I haven't seen her since that last time on the stairs outside. And it's not that I haven't yet had the gumption to ask Lynn about her; I just haven't had the opportunity yet. I'm trying to catch her (Lynn) when there aren't too many people in the restaurant--this really is the kind of place where everybody knows your name, so, in order to avoid this TS woman potential embarrassment, I'm wanting to ask Lynn about her when nobody else is around. I don't really care if others find out about me (most of the regulars know about "Christina" already, anyway); I just want to be as sensitive as I can about, well, about "Lady X," I guess I can call her.

On a side note, Lynn and a couple of the customers have begun arguing--sotto voce--with me about whether or not I'm really a crossdresser, despite the photos I've shown them. Lynn dared me to show up as Christina one of these Saturday mornings. I asked the boss (who likes me a lot) if this would bother him (he and his wife are Muslim). His reply: "If you think this will scare my customers away, don't do it; if you think this will draw more people in here, then, by all means, do it! Please!" Hmmm. I'm debating. It's a tough call. Many of the older regulars are blue collar gents... road crews and construction workers, mixed in with a fair amount of cabbies and truck drivers. Still, I think it would be pretty safe; there are no groups of teenage girls!

As I've said, I'll keep you all posted.

Love,
CJ

Hi CJ,

I read your last post with interest, as it is something I have spent some time thinking about myself. Here is my ponderings.

If I see a GG and find her attractive, I ask myself just what is the attraction. She is likely to be dressed, so do more colourful colours, high skirts, low tops and make-up make her more appealing ? Until a few months ago I would have said yes, then I started to pay more attention to my gender issues, joined this forum and the plot thickened. Many of the CDers here are very convincing as women, so was I attracted to the girls here too ? No (phew, I hear everyone say). Well, not exactly, as I knew these to be CDers, considered everyone as friends, even as sisters, everyone fell into a different category. Yet they are still attractive, as much as GG's are at times. I began to see a difference in attraction and attractive, I also saw that attraction was very much influenced by make-up and clothing. That led me to realise that social conditioning must play a part in all this. I am able to muster up a cleavage, many of us can and like a GG this can be attractive, undressed and untaped ? For me, the GG would win hands down.

In the end I began to see what GG's mean when they say a woman is attractive, I also realised that being attracted to a woman was often largely being attracted to the image. All in all, a very liberating thing for me. I am no longer like a lot of men who are a slave to a low cut top etc. It is literally what is inside the package that counts for me. How could I be attracted to a 'gorgious' GG and not be attracted to the girls here ? It just didn't add up. Coming to terms with the fact that it's the package that is causing the attraction rather than the person inside was the big realisation. I am far more freer than I used to be, less threatened by women on a night out who try to intimidate me with an assault of lewd behaviour. Ironical, that because they can't make me drool over them, I get called gay. It must be a power thing. I feel more hetrosexual than I ever have.

A strange off-shoot of this is that when I dress, I create an image, the same one that I realise is a product of society....hmmm, will have to do more thinking.

I don't know if this helps, it's just something Iv'e been thinking about the last few months

Love
Rebecca xxx

I too have thought about this fact, because I am 100% into girls and do not find men attractive at all but some cross dressers I find incredible sexy. I really don't think I will ever be able to answer the question of if I could fancy a cross dresser until the day I ever met one.

I think maybe I would not so much fancy them but just be, like I have said be, in awe of them for their beauty.

Sophie xx

Interesting statement Sophie. I think we have talked about, or is it me, working toward self acceptance nomatter what the inherent mix of gender traits we have. The natural extension is caring for and being supportive of others nomatter their gender mix or expression.

I love CJ's statement, we'll see what happens, oh well (paraphrasing). If we love ourselves and love others, I believe there would be the possibility that a few of us could be attracted to a ts, tg, cross-dresser, man, woman or what ever. I believe Deborah said we could be the emergence of the future of man. Could it be that first us and then all man kind could grow in spirit beyond nurture, nature, and genetic programing. Imagine the open doors if we believed that our spirits were capable of any great good. Imagine all of us making choices in our lives beyond our "cave" mentality or progamming. (See Marda's cave story under creativity near top)

I, like you Sophie, find myself attracted to some here because of their writing and mind and some for their writing and beautiful pictures. Would I venture that way? No, now only because I love my wife and am devoted to her. I had chosen to be monogamous when we married and I still choose that. If I was living in another place and time I would like most to be loving and accepting of all possibilities as CJ and others have shown me over and over.

As a truth, I find you quite alluring. You have a beautifully chiseled face.
You to me have an exotic woman's complex face. Hope I didn't offend you.
I mean this in the best way.

Kersten

Hi all,

Hmmm... this thread certainly took an interesting twist. Those were awesome posts, Rebecca, Kersten et al.

For much of the last fifteen years I've been trying to get rid of some of what my father would call "maladaptive behaviours." Rigidity is one character trait I'm working on, i.e., my former tendency either to see things in black and white or to always react in the same way to any given situation, even though that reaction was never particularly helpful to me.

My sexual orientation falls within the bounds of this process. I used to think there were such creatures as completely heterosexual human beings, but, in my own experience, there always seems to be an ever so slight margin of flexibility (even if it forever remains in our own head). Friendship, love, respect, admiration, and other sundry affinities, often engender a desire to be close, an attraction, to another person, regardless of their sex or gender (and, no, I'm not necessarily talking about sex, here). I think it's this bit of leeway that allows me to not be completely mortified at the thought that I may possibly be attracted to Lady X, for example.

I've asked myself this many times in the last few weeks: given that I know nothing of this mystery woman, why does she exert this pull on me? Is it a fascination-laced envy that she's pulling off something I, myself, ache for? In other words, is it that I recognize myself in her? Am I really that narcissistic? Moreover, am I really that cross-gendered? No, no, no, and no. What, then? Her beauty? She's rather more handsome (in a feminine way) than pretty. I think part of it is the fact that, though silent and preoccupied with eating, and reading her newspaper, she oozed a confidence I wish I could also feel about myself. Her demeanour was a heady mixure of self-assurance and aloofness. I felt, well, I felt like she could, I guess, "teach" me a few things. Geez, this is so hard to put into words. It's as though the thought that she was (or is) a man never entered my mind. Curiouser and curiouser, as Alice said.

I've never had a sexual experience with someone of my own sex and I honestly don't think I ever will--I'm just not built that way and, to me, there's nothing quite so powerfully attractive as a woman. And not just the "image" of a woman, too. The living, breathing, thinking, feeling beings we call women. Like Rebecca, I'm no longer easily swayed by the package--I need to know what's inside before any potential attraction develops. Because of my seeming imperturbability around beautiful women, I've also had people think I was gay. Or old-fashioned (often said in a derogatory tone).

So, then. Given my need to know the inner person, what means this fascination with Lady X? I don't know; I'm at a loss to explain it. But I have my "spade" in hand... I have more digging to do. Oh well, still to be continued...

Love,
CJ

Hi girls,

I just have to get back into this conversation after reading these last posts, including CJ's last one, because I too am a "splitter". Which is a person who sees things as this or that. Black or white, good or bad. Of course this makes dealing with my gender issues a real problem since I clearly am not this or that.

However like CJ I have found myself asking if I could have a relationship with a male crossdresser or transexual or tranvestite. Normally I would have just blanket said "no". But here I am asking people to accept that I am something unacceptable, while not being willing to even entertain the thought of having a romantic, possibly loving relationship with a male crossdresser.

Now, I know I love women, so much so I want to emulate one. But what is my real objection to having a relationship with a man? Well, first of all I just am not attracted to men. In fact they kinda disgust me. I am disgusted by my own male traits, how could I ever deal with that with another man? To me a hairy butt, legs and/or chest is disgusting whether it is on me, or anyone else. I love how women smell. I don't just mean perfume and body spray or lotion, but a woman's natural scent is quite intoxicating to me, whereas the scent of a man is quite disgusting to me, including myself, which requires me to shower a lot, and use plenty of deoderant so as not to disgust myself.

Today I went out golfing with my brother. I don't golf, but I go out with him and we talk and it is just time together. Today I was telling him that had I come out earlier I probably would have transitioned, but that I have become content to live as a crossdresser because the hassle, expense, and upkeep of SRS. I also told him that having said that, if someone could wave a magic wand and make me female, I would for sure do it. His immediate response was "Then you would date men?". To which I said "no, I am only attracted to women". He then said "that's impossible, if you want to be a girl, then you must be attracted to men." To which I again replied "well I must be a lesbian, because I want to be a girl, but I am only attracted to women" He then countered with "It's ok if you're gay, it won't change how anyone feels about you"

We went back and forth with a few more exchanges and I told him that most crossdressers are not only straight, but seem to be married. He then told me(get ready for this) that every week Ricki Lake has crossdressers on, and most of them are gay. And because I know so little about this crossdressing thing, how do I know I am not supressing feelings of homosexualty also?

I told him that I have been crossdressing since I was 11, thinking about doing it since I was 9, and in fact at age 9 first heard of transexuals, and thought I was one. That was before I was a sexual person. I then told him again, that I have never been attracted to men, which in my case would be required. He then told me that millions of women are married to men that they are not attracted to, and that perhaps I was looking at this all wrong. I told him that was all fine and well, but how did he explain the fact that I am very much attracted to women? I told him one last time that I was sure I was not gay, but if I was, I was a lesbian.

In the end he seemed rather unconvinced and I think that he thinks it is just a matter of time before I come out of the closet and tell him I am in fact homosexual.

I have always found the thought of kissing a man in an intimate way a very disgusting thought. But what if that man looked like a stunningly attractive woman? And smelled like a woman, or at least did not smell like a man? I don't have these answers. I was really hoping CJ was going to find out for me. So? Could you speed this process up a bit? *lol*

Love always,
Elizabeth

Elizabeth,

That was a very very fascinating read. All I know is that, like you I don't fancy men, however like I said before I think we could never answer if we could fancy a cross dresser until we ever met one.

However, if I was out clubbing or whatever and I got chatting to this sexy girl and I started to fall in love, but then a week later she said to me I am really a man or I used to be a man. How would you deal with that? You can't suddenly stop loving that person. It's very confusing...

In my teens I always thought like you that I wanted to be a girl, I now know I don't want to be a girl all the time, but in my Teens I always thought I must be gay. This is one of the main reasons why I ignored dressing up, I tried my best to pretend I didn't want to do it. I would find something else to do and get hooked on that to stop me dressing. In my case it was Videogames

Anyways... What's I'm trying to say is, I honestly think that you will only ever know the answer of if you could fancy a cross dresser if you actually came face to face with a sexy girl, who you found attractive but then found out was really a boy.

Sophie xx

Hi girls,

Iv'e never been able to see things in black and white down to my dad always 'playing the devil's advocate' with me. I think he meant to ......well actually I don't know what he meant but I know it stunted me. He once said that all men see things in black or white except me, two hours later he was trying to fight me, and when I wouldn't fight back he tried to run through a window. Yuch.....bad memories.

I also think believe there's a degree of bi-sexuality in all of us, whether we act on that depends on circumstances and the amount of this tendancy in us. I once saw a film many years ago where Michael Caine played Robinson Crusoe. Man Friday asked him if he fancied a bit of sex. Michael Crusoe put on his stiff upper lip and told him on yer bike. The reply was ' wer'e stuck on this desert island, wer'e gonna' get pretty lonely otherwise. I find myself with Elizabeth about hairy legs etc, I have never felt drawn to a man in a sexual way myself.

Yet I still relate to what you are saying CJ, very much in fact. There is an indefinable quality to life sometimes, a mysterious feeling that just can't be pinned down. For me, I know it is very much connected to my cross-dressing, it's that feeling that makes me feel a lilting sigh. An almost painfull sigh. It's been with me as long as I can remember. I know this sounds unrelated, but when I read your last post CJ, I did get a feeling I can relate to.

Do you remember my post about Zul, the CD I met in my teens ? (it's in 'coping' when was your first encounter with a crossdresser) I was attracted to her, but there was no stirring in the loins whatsoever. I couldn't even describe it as romantic attraction. I felt like asking "tell me who I am, and then hold me. Take away the pain". I never considered myself a cross-dresser at the time, yet still had this pain inside of me, I always have.

I am rambling here, trying to make sense of what I'm saying.

I have hardly ever met people that can show a massive awareness of me, the only ones I did were quite destructive towards me and was screwed up. GG's Iv'e known have always needed me to be straight-forward and strong, and some of the time I can provide that, but who really understands my deep feelings of yearning inside, the feelings that hurt when they are left alone ? Now I'm stuck for words, if we are all talking the same thing here, maybe we can work this out....I know I had more to say, but Iv'e confused myself now

Will work on this
Love to all
Rebecca xxx

Rebecca,

Maybe what we are all talking about is being loved and accepted. There is no denying that there comes and understanding with a sister crossdresser that just does not exist anywhere else. Until I came here, I never realized that. I don't think we are talking about sexual attraction here. I think it is about what is inside all of us. Something we can't explain, and don't understand ourselves.

Just one girls opinion.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Hi all,

Rebecca,

I understand what you're trying to say. Like Elizabeth, amongst others, suggests, we have a longing for being in the presence of a sister soul. This transcends sex. It transcends gender. It's a very human--sometimes painful, sometimes joyful--thing, this longing. It makes wise children of us all. The longing is as old as humanity itself.

In Plato's Symposium (The Banquet), Socrates speaks of our eternal desire for one another and how it came about. It's a charming fantasy, but it has the ring of spiritual truth. Here's the relevant passage (as we all know, regardless of anatomical sex, some souls are more or less androgynous):

The original human nature was not like the present, but different. The sexes were not two, as they are now, but originally three in number; there was man, woman, and a union of the two, having a name corresponding to this double nature, which once had a real existence, but is now lost, and the word "Androgynous" is only preserved as a term of reproach. In the second place, the primeval man was round, his back and sides forming a circle; one head with two faces looking in opposite ways, set on a round neck and precisely alike; also four ears, two privy members, and the remainder to correspond. He could walk upright as men do now, backwards or forwards as he pleased, and he could also roll over and over at a great pace.........

The man was originally the child of the Sun, and the man-woman of the Moon, which is made up of sun and earth, and they were all round and moved round and round like their parents. Terrible was their might and strength, and the thoughts of their hearts were great, and they dared to scale the heavens, and they made an attack on the Gods.

The Gods took council and Zeus discovered a way to humble their pride and improve their manners. They would continue to exist, but he cut them in two like a sorb-apple which is halved for pickling.

After the division, the two parts of man (the Androgyne), each desiring his other half, came together and throwing their arms around one another, entwined in mutual embraces, longing to grow into one; they were on the point of dying from hunger and self-neglect because they did not like to do anything apart; and when one of the halves died and the other survived, the survivor sought another mate, man or woman, as we call them--being the sections of entire men or women--and clung to that.

They were being destroyed when Zeus, in pity of them, invented a new plan. He turned the parts of generation round to the front, for this had not always been their position, and they sowed the seed no longer as hitherto like grasshoppers, in the ground, but in one another; and after the transposition the male generated in the female in order that by mutual embraces of man and woman they might breed and the race might continue; or if man came to man they might be satisfied, and rest, and go their ways to the business of life: so ancient is the desire of one another which is implanted within us, reuniting our original nature, making one of two, and healing the state of man.

Each of us, when separated, having one side only, like a flat fish, is but the identure of a man, and is always looking for his other half....and when one of them meets with his other half, the actual half of himself........the pair are lost in an amazement of love and friendship and intimacy, and one will not be out of the other's sight, as I may say, even for a moment; these are the people who pass their whole lives together; yet they could not explain what they desire of one another. For the intense yearning which each of them has for the other does not appear to be the desire of lovers' intercourse, but of something else which the soul of either evidently desires and cannot tell, and of which she has only a dark and doubtful presentiment.

Love,
CJ (still in search of her other half)

Wow! It did take an interesting twist here! First, Elizabeth, I have reread your post and the statement," but here I am asking people to accept that I am something unacceptable......" I don't understand what is unacceptable, (your brother not accepting you?- what?)
Danielle tried to start something along this thought in that how we felt "sexually" when we see ourselves in the mirror and were we being completely honest with ourselves when we saw what we saw. I tried to be as honest as possible - yes! Deborah is (in my eyes) a beautiful, sexy woman and yes I do feel turned on by her! I did go on to say that once she is away from a mirror and maybe out in public, that sexual attraction goes away because the "male influence" is "outta here!" and Deborah is just doing her thing!
As for Sophie's comment about "falling for a CD or T/S" and not knowing then finding out later after the emotions have become viable -WOW! never really thought about that. Not necessarily using Sophie as an example - well yes I am! If she "dated" me of a few times with no real physical contact and I did not know and I "fell for her" then found out ??:?
Whose responsibility is it?? I personally feel that the CD TS TG whatever should be honest on the front end if there is any indication that the other party in not aware of the "person under the make-up!"
Deborah

Deborah,

It was a metaphor for my views of society, sorry I was not more clear about that.

Sure it turns me on to see Elizabeth in the mirror. She is a sexy beautiful woman to me. Not so sure others would see that though. But that is a secondary emotion. Mostly I get this incredible feeling of joy. I can not look at Elizabeth in the mirror without smiling. Seeing her, is seeing me. It is like the "Scooby Doo" ending where I rip of the mask, and it's Elizabeth. That is who I really am. At least it seems that way to me.

CJ,

That was really deep!!!!

Love always,
Elizabeth

Now searching for my other half.

Hi all,

Interesting discussion girls.

When viewing one of the girls pictures on this forum, I was attracted to her. I then saw a close up of another picture of the same girl that clearly showed her face as a male face, and I was repulsed. That was unacceptable for me, I cringed, responding to something that was inside of me. That is a part of who I am, yet it dose not bother me in the least to look at myself in the mirror when dressed, with no make up on. Although I feel better if I have wig on.

I guess for me it appears to have something to do with an illusion and has to stay that way.

What this has taught me is that no amount of educating me is going to change the way I felt, because my head wanted to accept that, but my inner being would not let me.

If those in society are repulsed like I was, it will take more than education to ever get them to accept us.

Hi,
I have loved this line very much. Everyone has talked about bits and pieces of me. This is honesty at it's highest calling. We have all reached as far into our guts as possible, trying to find a truth. Everyone of us has said we are still searching for truth in ourselves, the world and others. If a discussion such as this was read, heard, participated in, by all in all subject matters, the world would change this second.

I've said this before, so forgive me one more time. I was never able, until finding all of you, that I could talk about my doubts, feelings, and my personal failings and successes. Having others of this life to share and know my thoughts and feelings, lets me be a part of a real family that I've never known. Even if on the net, you're all real to me.

I have felt so guilty and have told a couple girls that I am afraid to meet any of you yet. It's a deep seated fear in me that I have not yet been able to resolve. With all my high minded talk, this is a very painful admission for me.

Don't let this divert the discussion, I only had to tell all of you. I don't know why it just felt like the time was right. It might have been all the naked honesty that was happening here. I felt less than a bright penny.

I'm OK though, really,
Kersten

Kersten

Hi all,

I feel we are discussing something here that has a few implications. Not only lady X, not only sexuality, or our place in the gender world.

This has a lot to do with our honesty to ourselves, and the effect society has had upon us. as Kersten pointed out it's, as though we are communally pushing the boundary a little further.

What Darlene said also raises an interesting thought. All of us CDers were born male, and along with that came male social programming. I think one of the problems that a lot of blokes in the street would have with us, is feeling duped. If the world is black and white to him, and he takes a shine to a CD, when he finds out the truth he'll feel as though made to look a fool, and respond by trying to prove his masculinity, if WE are trying to come to terms with our social programming regarding how we look in each others eyes with the knowledge that we are all CDs, imagine the confusion for someone totally unprepared. Anyway, that's going a little off track.

Kersten, I think your'e being hard on yourself, the fact that your'e here discussing in this topic says a great deal doesn't it ? That's if I understand you correctly.

Elizabeth, I think your'e correct in that we are looking for someone who can accept and love us, however I also think that in that search, our vision of our sexuality can become involved further down the line. If I try to put myself in the situation that CJ has been describing, I can totally feel the attraction, if I got to know that person, I would actually WANT to physically bond with them as an extra form of closeness. The problem would arise in the bedroom, more than likely I would end up in tears when I found that I just wasn't interested sexually.

Going back to my encounter with Zul, all those years ago. At 19 yrs old I never considered myself a crossdresser, yet there was an attraction that I couldn't put my finger on. It was as though she had a secret to life that had meaning to me. I also think she had a similar dilemma herself, I treat her as 100% woman, I didn't even know otherwise, so it seemed the right thing to do. I remember her almost being in tears herself, was it because she felt she was duping me, because she was attracted to me and it clashed with her view of herself, I don't know. I was innocent, I was aware of that, so I was honest and straightforward. When the penny began to drop that there was more to the situation, I felt it was pointless in pursuing things, it felt there would be hurt in store for both of us. Here was a person that could understand me more than I understood myself and yet the way things were headed could only lead to heartache.

I think this is why this place is so important to us. I don't really know anywhere else I could say these things and hope to be understood. ~D~ does understand, don't get me wrong, but as she is different to me, her experiences of life different, it is still hard for her to relate to my ramblings.

CJ, a lovely little story you posted there, I have taken the information you shown and tried to interpret it in my own experience. I don't know if any of what is being said in this topic is helping at all. I am tending to write from the heart rather from knowledge, hence the rambling, I sort of feel what you have said rather than know it.

~D~ has read the topic and suggests that a person will know instinctively whether a situation is worth pursuing as a relationship/friendship develops. She also said that as a lot of teenage girls have a crush on each other as they are learning how to project their image of themselves in the world, maybe CDers can have a similar crush with a CDer they look up to.

WOW.....it's taken me two hours to write this
Anyway, a few thoughts to be pondered
Love to all
Rebecca and ~D~ xxx

This is really getting into "heavy duty" psychological profiling!
I can almost guarantee that probably none of us could get this type of "counselling" from a couch in some shrinks office! I agree with Kersten's statements, that our ability to civilly discuss these things on line, in a forum with folks of our own ilk - is this not cool??!!!!!
What you have done to me is made me give second thoughts to how I will feel Saturday night when I go "en drab" to the SBS meeting here in Roanoke. How many will show up, what will they wear, will they ostersize me for not dressing (even though I have a good excuse). Since this will be my first encounter with a group of our sisters I am looking forward to it, but now with a sense of apprehension.
Where are we as Cd'ers? I still believe that we may be the next stage in human evolution, the ability to transistion, almost at will, to generally accept our sisters with an admiration beyond something sexual. Like any "new life form" we have and will make our mistakes, learn from them and move ahead and share our experiences with our sisters. This is all well and good until Marda came along and basically said that perhaps "we" as crossdressing males are really not incharge of our lives as we think, that the female (anima) is really in charge and just lets us as males think we have the upper hand!!!??? How cool is that ???!!
We can take the position of "I don't care, I love being the way that I am." So. we just go skipping down the path oblivious to the WHY!!! A lot of us do however want to know why. Why we can or may be attacted to other girls here. CJ's delima of attraction, I think is a basic human need to be around someone who is self-confident, strong and intelligent and we all know that we as CD'ers are above average intelligence that has been proven.
Girls we are unique and we know it! Better than anyone else - that's already been discussed and I don't want to go there! As one of our sisters says" I love being a girl!"
I say "Girl Power!" and you ladies RULE!!!and ROCK!!!
Love,
Deborah