Crossdressers-Haven.com

Hi all,

In a neighbouring thread, Sherry was wondering about the percentage of men who crossdress. This brought to mind a conversation I had recently with a GG, where she said she suspected that all men had a potential crossdressing streak in them. This, because of our love and admiration not so much for women themselves as for the images of women we so much seem to be taken with... images we try to own and to possess, to "have." Maybe we crossdressers just go further than most men in that desire to "possess" womanhood, but the potential desire to do so could be present in all men. I'll admit this gave me pause. What do you all think about this?

Love,
CJ

Hi CJ!

Well... yes, I'm sure every guy is a potential CD. And a potential artist, potential murderer, potential Nobel prize winer, potential... anything.

But an answer a bit more relevant to your question... reminds me of a phrase that a loathe... "what's the difference between a CD and a TS? - Two years". Sure... any CD is a potential TS, if you don't pay attention to the fact that many CD's know for sure they are not TS's.

We all are so different... reminds me of kids playing with plastic "green army" type of soldiers. Some kids will just "pretend" that there is a big battle going on. Some others will add explosions (Like pouring gasoline or other stuff to the soldiers, etc.) ~ Why I mention this? Because for some men, the attraction for women is all about "action", while for some others it can have lots of more subtle ways to be expressed. I don't know if it made sense... but well, wouldn't be the first time I don't make any sense. *LOL*

Regards,
Gaby (a potential lottery winner, potential beauty, potential astronaut, but factual ((%^#$* according to some. *s*)

I'd have to disagree. Too many men have quite an adversion to transvestism and homosexuality, and can't separate the two mentally.

Now, if all men were submissive, then it would be possible for dominant GGs to get them in dresses.

Well, it's almost a cliche, but gender, to a large extent, is a cultural construct. If a society prescribed/approved of silks, lace and cosmetics for men, you can be sure that men would eagerly adopt them. But since these things, in our culture are taboo to men, most men end up with their brains wired to view such things as simply not pertaining to them. They may even be so socialized as to fear them.

A few years ago, I took my then 18-year-old nephew with me to go Christmas shopping. One of the things I wanted to buy was something for his sister (two years older). When I started in to the store (it was Charlotte Russe, one of a chain of trendy upscale juniors' boutiques), this nearly grown man refused to so much as enter the store! What if one of his homophobic friends were to happen by and see him in there with me? Everybody would think he was a fag, he said, and his life would be ruined. Young Mr. Macho waited outside while I shopped.

Of course I experienced that same feeling when I was a youngster and would shop for female clothing, terrified that everyone would think I was buying it for myself -- but that's just because I was buying it for myself. I never felt that kind of trepidation when I was shopping for someone else, even if the ultimate user was close to my own size.

So I guess my answer is, no. While any man could certainly put on women's clothes for whatever reason, I believe that for most men the associated social opprobrium would be so painful as to prevent or cancel out any potential sensual pleasure or gratification of any kind.

On the other hand, I've witnessed a lot of change in our culture over the course of my lifetime, and I do believe there has been some marginal lessening of the taboo (or perhaps it's just that society's ability to monitor people and impose sanctions -- that is, "the small-town" attitude -- has decreased with the anonymity provided in urban environments). So I would speculate that if we could somehow get accurate data, we would see an increase in the percentage of cross-gender behavior of all kinds over the past 40 years or so. My tuppence worth.
.......Tamara Segunda

Sounds as though autogynephilia disinformation has made its way into exoteric feminism.

-Celia

A GG, said she suspected that all men had a potential cross dressing streak in them. This, because of our love and admiration not so much for women themselves as for the images of women we so much seem to be taken with... images we try to own and to possess, to "have."

Hi CJ.

This is defiantly the situation in my life, the more I get in touch with what it is like to actually be a woman the less I am attracted to dressing like them. The more I am in touch with the image I have of them, the more I enjoy dressing like them. That explains why I do not want padding on my hips, or require a lot of make up. Except for padding in the bra I like the way I look in womans clothing. I like the image. Therefore I like me.

But I am sure others here don't feel this way so I would have answer the question in the negative.

Love Darlene.

Darlene wrote:

A GG, said she suspected that all men had a potential cross dressing streak in them. This, because of our love and admiration not so much for women themselves as for the images of women we so much seem to be taken with... images we try to own and to possess, to "have."

Hi CJ.

This is defiantly the situation in my life, the more I get in touch with what it is like to actually be a woman the less I am attracted to dressing like them. The more I am in touch with the image I have of them, the more I enjoy dressing like them.

Love Darlene.

I agree with you Darlene and CJ ,

This is pretty much my case , I have always had an obsession with the image of woman , the obsession is so strong that I want to BE that image.

When I'm with a group of men I feel like a girl hidden within the group, but
when I'm with a group of woman I feel like a man and not one of the girls.
In reality I dont fit in with the girls either so I have an idolized image of woman in my head and try to be that image.

Hi girls,

This is an extremely interesting thread, and I am so glad I waited to respond to it, because waiting and seeing what my others sisters have had to say has shown me just how broad this discussion really is.

I believe that context is everything. I mean if it were suddenly socially acceptable and even "en vogue" for men to wear womens clothes, and there was no opprobrium associated with it, that would change a lot.

I remember my oldest brother getting tackled and held down by three teachers, while the principle of the school cut his hair with sissors. It was morally wrong to have long hair, and look like a girl. 10 years later, all the teachers have long hair, and country music performers have long hair. So? Social acceptance is everything, for many.

On Halloween this year, my best friend whom many of you have heard me speak of as a great supporter of mine, decided to dress as a woman. And while he was in Montana at the time, and going to a party, he later admitted to me that he felt absolutely nothing, except embarrassed. This is intesting becuase he never went to the party he was intending to but wanted to dress up anyway, just to see how he would look, so he never left his motel room.

Now I don't want to speak for all crossdressers here, but it is my experience that most of us crossdressers feel something quite different than embarassment. And while me may feel some embarassment in certain situations, the overwhelming positive feelings of crossdressing outweigh them enough that we keep doing it. And for me personally, dressing like a woman is absolutely wonderful. It makes me feel like a whole human being, and gives me a feeling of well being that I just do not get any other way.

So? While I beleive that if social acceptance of crossdressing and potetially becoming a fashion statement itself, would cause a large percentage of men to dress this way. there would always be those who would have no interest, not like the fashion itself, or just prefer mens clothing, as many women do right now.

Do I believe that all men have a potential to express the fact that 50% of their genes come from a female, and they are in fact half male and half female? No, I beleive that some men have been so socially cultured, or thier brains were formed hypermasculine, that they would never feel this need.

So? in my opinion, not all men have a potential to crossdress.

Love always.
Elizabeth

As a potential Wonderbra shareholder I'm intensely interested in the consensus of this group and the development of this thread ...



/ Marda

Elizabeth wrote:Hi girls,



I remember my oldest brother getting tackled and held down by three teachers, while the principle of the school cut his hair with sissors. It was morally wrong to have long hair, and look like a girl. 10 years later, all the teachers have long hair
Love always.
Elizabeth

That is absolutely disgraceful

A 9 year old student was suspended from school a few years back for having his hair too short.
If that were my kid involved I would really give the principal something for Christmas.

Personally I believe that all men are potential crossdressers because all men were, at the time of developement in the womb all were potentially female. I believe that machoism is simply denial. Men are programed from birth to be macho. Men that grew up with loving sisters are definitely different from those who did not.
Bobbie

Hi all,

Thanks for your replies and contributions.

I appreciate all the viewpoints and opinions. The conversation I had with the woman I mentioned in my original post had more to do with some aspects of the psychology of men, generally, than it did with genetics or hormonal development or even social mores. It's hard to explain, I guess. Let me throw a few things your way and see if any of them strike a chord.

Generally, men are much more visually- and spatially-oriented than women (and whether this is a result of neurophysiology or evolutionary psychology or even upbringing is a moot point for the purposes of this thread). We love images. Many, if not most of us (who are heterosexual), have a deep-seated appreciation for images of femininity and womanhood. Skeptical? Just think of a crossdresser without a full-length mirror. (An aside: the fashion and beauty industries well know how to exploit this natural bent to their advantage. Both men and women fall prey to their conditioning; men, by having their more visual nature catered to [pornography, for instance, isn't that much different, in its reason for being, than are images of fashion magazine models, according to hardcore feminists], and, women, by being led to believe that there is little worth to be had in being a woman, away from the male gaze.) Anyway, all this to say, we (men) love images. Especially "idealized" images of women. So much so, in fact, that, if we have trouble getting our fill of such images in our "real" lives, we'll turn to something rather more virtual: magazines, films, television (think: the "Jiggle Factor"--something television producers know very well attracts a male audience), and even, potentially (and this was the point the woman I spoke with was trying to get across, I think), ourselves, as men. We (crossdressers) are, in effect, a reification (a philosophical term meaning, "something not real made real") of an idealized image of womanhood and/or femininity. My conversation partner was perhaps suggesting that, for these reasons, all men are potential crossdressers. To wit:

I remember once, long ago, watching the Tonight Show. Johnny Carson was interviewing Catherine Deneuve (often thought of as being one of the most beautiful women in the world). At some point during the encounter, he mentioned that he had, occasionally, wondered what it would be like to be a woman. Well, he was almost laughed out of the studio by the audience. The reaction left him puzzled. He had trouble believing that most men haven't thought about this, at one time or another. Personally, I suspect that most men have. Not for the usual ribald or quasi-sexual reasons, but as a way of "possessing," of making theirs, an idealized (and preferably beautiful) image of womanhood. It's in this sense, I think, that all men are potential crossdressers.

Of course, it goes without saying that this infatuation with abstract womanhood and femininity stands to potentially (and severely) impair our relationships with the real, live, flesh-and-blood, women in our lives. There are very few women who can compete with such idealized versions of who and what they're supposed to be, in men's eyes (not that they should even try, mind you).

Anyway, forgive me the ranting tone, here. I've just seen (actually, heard) some women I care for deeply be damaged by this whole issue recently. And I don't like it.

Love,
CJ

Hi CJ

Quite the fascinating topic....I am inclined to agree with you:

I remember once, long ago, watching the Tonight Show. Johnny Carson was interviewing Catherine Deneuve (often thought of as being one of the most beautiful women in the world). At some point during the encounter, he mentioned that he had, occasionally, wondered what it would be like to be a woman. Well, he was almost laughed out of the studio by the audience. The reaction left him puzzled. He had trouble believing that most men haven't thought about this, at one time or another. Personally, I suspect that most men have. Not for the usual ribald or quasi-sexual reasons, but as a way of "possessing," of making theirs, an idealized (and preferably beautiful) image of womanhood. It's in this sense, I think, that all men are potential crossdressers

.

I have, out of sheer curiosity, wondered what it would be like to be a man. So, I think that due to the curiosity factor most folks have indeed wondered what it would be like to be the opposite sex. As to your thoughts on CDing being a means of "possessing" an idealized image of womanhood, I think for a few men that does indeed hold true. But in essence, I do have to agree that all men have the potential to be crossdressers. I personally think that all humans have the potential to do anything. It comes down to whether or not a person is so inclined and has the courage to conquere their fears and act upon their potenial natures.

Of course, it goes without saying that this infatuation with abstract womanhood and femininity stands to potentially (and severely) impair our relationships with the real, live, flesh-and-blood, women in our lives. There are very few women who can compete with such idealized versions of who and what they're supposed to be, in men's eyes (not that they should even try, mind you).

Anyway, forgive me the ranting tone, here. I've just seen (actually, heard) some women I care for deeply be damaged by this whole issue recently. And I don't like it.

Rant forgiven This is a subject that gets to me as well. I used to babysit a 6 year old young 'un many years ago. This beautiful child asked me if I thought she looked fat The images of "perfect" women on magazine covers, on TV, and in the movies are doing some serious emotional, psychological, and physical harm to some children, teenage girls, and to some women in general.. The incidences of Bulliemia (SP?) and Anorexia are far too high Sigh.....

*Hugs & Love*

According to Jungian psychology everyone has an idealized version of the opposite sex which is a part of their personality. Generally deeply buried in our subconscious/the Collective Unconscious, among other things the anima (for males) is a guide to choosing a sexual partner. Perhaps in CDs the anima is just closer to the surface than ususal?

There will always in every culture and time be a 'standard' of what male clothing is and what female clothing is. There was a time when high-heeled boots, powdered wigs, and tights were considered the height of male fashion in Europe. There will also always be an attraction for some to cross that line and outwardly present themselves as being the opposite of what they are, or to transcend those boundaries entirely.

I believe that context is everything. I mean if it were suddenly socially acceptable and even "en vogue" for men to wear womens clothes, and there was no opprobrium associated with it, that would change a lot.

If it were all the rage for men to wear skirts, many CDs/TVs would likely be less attracted to skirts as a means of 'female' attire. Of course these things don't happen overnight (in today's macho culture, can you see the majority of males daring to wear even so masculine an item as a kilt? How gay!) Rather it would be the culmination of a trend in which pants and skirts perhaps would both become more unisex items - but there would still be subtle differences in the 'accepted styles' for use by men and women.

What I'm trying to say is, if it ever becomes 'in' for men to wear women's clothing, it will not be women's clothing anymore it will be men's clothing. I doubt we'll ever reach a point of there being no distinction between clothing 'meant for' each sex. All that will realistically change is perhaps the acceptance of the general public for those who feel driven to play gender games.

Hi CJ, this is such a relevent topic to me that I decided to write my personal experience on (new topic -why do like to CD) Your topic and every body's imput made it possible for me to bring out. Thank you girls. Maria