Crossdressers-Haven.com

Hi all,

There's something Darlene mentioned in Kay's thread on admiration that I wanted to pursue because it struck a chord. This is the question of our "satisfaction" (or "dissatisfaction") with our body.

Saturday night I went to have dinner at a colleague's home. We had a great time. As I knew it would, the subject of my crossdressing came up (yes, I'm the one who brought it up). Apparently, she didn't know nor even suspect I was a CD (even with my calendar pix having created such a furor last year). She was full of questions (and that's good!). One thing she asked me was: "Is it that you don't like your body?" I had to think about that for a moment. In the end, I answered, "no, I like my body; it's brought me pleasure and it's brought me pain; it's been my constant companion on my own 'Magical Mystery Tour'." Yet. Yet, I told her that what she saw when she looked at me was not how I saw myself. And I'm not talking about the way I'm dressed, here.

I have a mental picture of myself as a person who's soft, tender, fairly mild-mannered, even delicate in some ways, yet my looks give no hint of this (I mean my boy mode looks). I've been told by people that I look mean or dangerous (e.g., when I don't shave). I have angular features, a strong jaw, and I'm big-boned. But I certainly don't cultivate all this "manliness." It's just the body I was born with. Hence, my "ambivalence" about my own body, my own looks. I know that many of my friends believe that the fact that, say, I don't dance or that I have a fairly low sex drive is evidence that I'm unwilling (or unable) to "commit" to my own body. And they're right, of course. The thing is (and this is where professionals consider that I have a disorder), I suffer a tremendous amount of distress because I'm "locked" into one gender (not sex, but gender). This is why, for example, I know I'm not a true transsexual. I would be just as unhappy if I always had to be a woman (through SRS, HT, and various other transsexualizing procedures).

I was trying to explain all this to my colleague (the fine red wine helped loosen my tongue some). She found it unfortunate that I seemed to be repressing my true self so much. "The world is definitely no ready for my true self," I shot back, half-jokingly. I told her that, when we're talking transgender, we're also talking beatings, humiliation, deaths, job loss, and overnight stays in jail. That is, when who we are goes public. Privately, it's a different matter. I don't think she understood what I was trying to say. She replied that, of course, if she did some of the things she wants to in public, she'd face similar risks. But that' just it, isn't it? We CD's face those risks because of who we are; and who we are comes out in what we do. It's so damned hard explaining to people what it feels like to be condemned because of who you are--even should you never act in any way with anyone that would ever reveal who you are to the world at large. It's a constant pressure on your being. Constant.

Anyway, back to the body. I am not my body. My body is an aspect of who I am. Why do people have such a hard time grasping this concept? Is it that we live in a culture where "appearance" is the determining factor in a person's identity? Of course, my body has had a definite influence on my sense of identity because, precisely, this is what people relate to first. I would not be the same person I am today if I didn't "have" the body I do. I pretty much like who I am so, in that regard, I am grateful for the body I have. But people who relate only to my body miss the biggest aspect of who I am: my mind (or soul or spirit or whatever you want to call it).

Many will say that, in this case, we have no choice; we're born with the body we're born with, and that's that. However, as we all know, that's just not true... the body can be changed ("We have the technology; we can rebuild him." ). The mind is a lot more resistant to change (and I mean the deep-rooted sense we have of our own self-identity). In a way, I don't have the same body I had even ten years ago. Our cells die or are sloughed off, only to be replaced by ever new cells, on average every seven years (this is a philosophical conundrum; in what way can we then say we're the same person we've always been if not by turning to the mind?). No, I am not my body. But I do think I am my mind (for I know my body can survive for quite a while without my mind but my mind cannot last a second without my body). So, my mind is necessarily related to my body. Thus, my ambivalence. I wouldn't have such difficulty "being in my own flesh" if the world of which I'm part could interact with me based on what's in my mind (and heart) more than on the mere basis of what my body looks like. I know, I know, this desire is as old as the hills themselves. But it's there, nonetheless.

Anyway, I started this "offshoot" of Kay's thread--where "appearance" put in an appearance more than once--here, so as not to hijack the topic of flattery and admiration. I'm curious to hear what you all think about this.

Love,
CJ

Hi CJ--
Some parts of the post certainly resonate for me. I had a mean and/or dangerous look about me that I cultivated for years, since it keep me from having to actually BE mean or dangerous. I said in another post that I was so delighted that children responded so well to Anita; they had always been scared of my male self.

I share your feeling about gender-lock, too, and it may be a common feeling on this board--that I wouldn't be happy with always being a woman, either. That may change as I get older, though. The gender differences start to blend more in the later decades, and I think I'll enjoy being a older woman more than I will an older man. We'll see.

It is very hard to get away from the shaping influence the body has on us. In some ways, I failed my body. It was capable of doing much more than I allowed it to do. So other people didn't put limitations on me; I did it. But I've been more expansive, the older I get.

No, the world probably isn't ready for your true self. But you, and I, and the others here are fortunate in a way, to have a true self that demands expression. Even if we hide from it others, it's still being acknowledged by us. It's a start.

There's a lot in that post, CJ! I'm not doing it justice tonight.

Anita wrote:There's a lot in that post, CJ! I'm not doing it justice tonight.

Ditto here.

I just wanted to note the interesting comment made by CJ and Anita. In my (bearded) male self I find people crossing the sidewalk to avoid passing me on the sidewalk to seemingly avoid a "mean" looking guy on the street. I don't "hate" the male side because I find it useful to be able to outrun others in time of danger (and play basketball ).

CJ wrote:I told her that, when we're talking transgender, we're also talking beatings, humiliation, deaths, job loss, and overnight stays in jail.

Grrr! If that doesn't get one fired up enough to change the world, I don't know what will! That's probably the most factually accurate post ever made in this forum!

Hi all,

How do we explain that some of us are planing on changing our bodies through surgery, like a jaw line etc. but not going the whole nine yards?

It would seem to me that those who choose to do that are not satisfied with their body....No?

Love Darlene.

CJ wrote: Apparently, she didn't know nor even suspect I was a CD (even with my calendar pix having created such a furor last year).

What happened CJ , why did your calendar pix create a problem ?
Was there a thread about this that I've missed ?

CJ wrote: I told her that, when we're talking transgender, we're also talking beatings, humiliation, deaths, job loss, and overnight stays in jail. That is, when who we are goes public. Privately, it's a different matter.
CJ

It would be nice to have a place in the world just for us , where we could be the norm and everybody in the town was TG , no fear of discrimination or violence

Hi all,

Merinda,

We ought to go live in "TG Town," eh? I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the idea of living in a gender ghetto. Anyway, about the furor, at some point last year, I was keeping the forum up to date on what was happening with a "crossdressed calendar" we were creating for a female colleague at work, as a funny "gift" for her tenth anniversary party. People enjoyed my photos and commented that I really seemed to have enjoyed making them. Well, yes, I did. You can find that thread here:
http://crossdressers-forum.com/forums/v ... c&start=30

By the way, Merinda, I love your new avatar.

Alexandra,

Although I'm sure my colleague understood the "beatings" and "deaths" part of my statement (it's a sad fact that women--just because they're women--have to deal with these, too), I imagine it may be more difficult for her to understand what I'm so afraid of. I'm Caucasian, male, and flirting with middle age: I'm part of the most "privileged" segment of society there is (well, I would be if I were a bit richer, anyway). And I "look so normal," too. I guess there's just no easy way to explain to another person what's inside.

Anita,

You always do justice to our posts. Even though your reply may have been brief, it was thoughtful and inspiring. I've come to never expect anything less from you, regardless of the length of your posts. Thanks.

Darlene,

Yes, you're right, some will change their bodies to more closely match what's in their mind. This is to be expected. Although they may not be true transsexuals, they seem to feel enough internal pressure to want to align their looks more closely with those we think of as a woman's. What I referred to as "transgenderists" last year (a term I culled from an article I found online) do just this. They don't want SRS but they do want to take steps to appear more feminine. All the more power to them, I say. Not only is this not a shallow thing (which some people could suppose merely because it deals with a person's "image"), it's the most profound action an individual can take to seek to redress the harmony and the balance between what they look like and how they feel inside. As I said above, how we feel inside (in this regard) is very difficult, if not impossible, to change. Again, this is a glowing testimony to our great variety and complexity as individuals.

Thanks, all of you, for your contributions on this.

Love,
CJ

Hi CJ,

Wow. You've really been rocking my mental world lately. The last few days I've read so many deep posts from you my head hurts. Thanks!!!

This one I think I can field. I agree with you about body and mind being separate. My mind is part of my body for sure, but in my opinion, my body and soul have a common goal. They both want to stay alive... well, they both have an agreement I should say. The soul knows the body is the carrier of the spirit and so the soul agrees to make sure that the body is treated with absolute respect for allowing it to enjoy our precious earth. So I feel they coexist, but are not one in the same. I hope that what I was saying made sense.

My minds eye and my day to day appearance don't match at all either. I'm going to do a few things and have a done a couple of things to change that, but it won't ever be enough. At this time science and technology can only do so much.

I feel I suffer from the same trapped feeling or locked into one gender (not sex, as you mentioned). I also agree that I would totally be unhappy as a TS, because for me it's not about living as a woman. I know my gender is female, but my sex is male. You know how funny that would be saying to someone who has never even heard of a gender disorder?

I do think gender expression equals all of those things you talked about CJ, from beatings to jail time for misunderstanding gender. I also think not living as my gender at all would kill me. I've got to be me. Being me doesn't mean changing anyone's mind about me, it doesn't mean that they'll accept me, and it most definitely doesn't mean I will hurt anyone to be me. I won't hurt anyone to be myself, there's no need. So, I'll risk those negative things others can do to me, to be me. I have to. I couldn't live unless I was allowed to be me. This comes with mental help of course (counseling, therapy), but they are worth it since there are no guides on life, much less living a TG'd life.

Sorry I digressed. I too am not only my body, but it is half of who I am for sure. This was another great thread CJ. Thanks to both you and Kay.

Beauty

Well, I started not to respond to this thread, because what I have been experiencing for me over the past year or so to me is unique, I love it but it is unique. As some of you know, I am a powerlifter and I am good at it, well until lately - my shoulder is just giving me real problems and does not seem to want to get better. Anyway, at my age, I have to take care of myself, watch what I eat, so I can maintain the weight class I lift in and as you get older in this sport it is more of a challenge just to maintain where you are as opposed to being able to lift even more!!! In the past year since Virginia has been with me, I have started doing exercies that are not directly related to powerlifting, just to enhance my "figure" if you will. So far it is working. This is the unique part. I know I related how Virginia came to me one night driving back from the hospital where my wife was and it seemed everything began crashing in on me and she said,"Don't worry honey, I am here and we are going to get through this."and we have! She has also been suporting me in my lifting! I can be getting ready to attempt a lift and she is there "Come on you can do this!"
She is actually encouraging me and it is wonderful and I think that a lot of it is to replace the total non-support that my wife gave me. You would think that a wife would be proud of her husband's accomplishments and support his efforts and try and understand the work it takes to become the best , not local, not state, not national, but to be the best in the world at something, but she just seems to totally ignore it!!
I have worked hard to get where I am in this sport and as for my body, well not too many almost 60 year olds can have a 32" waist, 44" chest, squat in the mid to upper 500's and bench press over 400 and have six pack abs. (We won't mention my shoulder)! So does crossdressing help me and /or my body or for that matter my mind!! OH YES!!!!!
Strange??Yes possibly, but to a lot of people we are a strange bunch anyway. Powerlifters and crossdressers - right?
Unique? I think so! To have your 'Anima" actually support you in male mode!!??
Happy?? OH Yeah!!! I've said it before and I will say it again, I am Virginia, she is me and together we are going to make all this work - Its wonderful!
So girls -in closing - it's diet and exercise and be willing to pay the price to accomplish your goals and allow your anima to roam free!!!!!! You will love her for it!!
Virginia

I'm satisfied with my body, in that it is a male body. I do not wish for a female body, even though there were times I wish I might have breasts.

Of course there are some aspects of my body I am not satisfied with.

I do wish I had no need to shave, and was not overweight. These could be easily remedied of course.

Looking through my eyes, I don't usually see the overweight body, even though I know it is there. So, what others see is not how I see myself.

When I do see my body from a viewpoint of how others see it, especially in photographs, I am always amazed at how big I look. Or I should say, used to look

I mean, I knew I was overweight, yet really didn't see it.

My mental picture is still of that 18 year old. So you see, I am satisfied with having a male body.

Others also seem to see me in that light, mainly because I look so strong. I have, for example, 17 inch biceps, almost as big as Virginia's, but I know I can't lift near the weight that she can. Other's don't know this and I am asked to do some heavy lifting all the time.

In High School, girls used to ask me to walk them to their lockers for protection, even without knowing how well I could fight.

So, there have been lots of times that my physical apperance has been the first thing others have related to.

Of course, once people get to know me (the mind), the physical appearance seems to be less of an issue, until they want something moved, that is

Ultimately, we are flesh, meat and chemicals and electricity. If there were a way to 'transcend flesh', I would certainly consider taking it. Ditto if there was a way to change my sex at will, or become a combination of the two or something entirely different. (You don't want to know what my fantasy life is like. ) But, as the only way to accomplish these things is with dangerous chemical therapy and painful, irreversible surgeries, steps which I'm certainly not going to take at this point in my life, I'll just have to be happy with what I am.

For over a decade I have hated what I saw when I looked in the mirror. I always have been a bit 'femme' in my appearance - perhaps more so in my own vision than in anyone else's, but still not enough. I have overcompensated by overmasculinizing myself, at least to an extent, and in my own narrow view of what 'masculinity' was - denying the full extent of my sexuality, growing a huge bushy 'Jesus beard', taking no care about my clothing or appearance and becoming just another anonymous Gothik Boi, taking no care or myself physically - spurning the flesh that I couldn't stand the sight of for some idealized state of 'pure mind', pure rationality, untainted by feminine urges or masculine reality. It just wasn't enough. I didn't even begin to find a measure of peace until I, first, accepted that I wanted to be a girl, and second, accepted that I never would.

The thing is, I have this intuition that had I been born female, I would feel just as trapped. Certainly I don't have any desire to make a 'full transition'. No offence to anyone who has chosen that route - if it's right for you, it's right for you, and my internal mentalities don't enter into it. I just feel like I would be making myself into a 'fake woman'. Quite apart from all the pain, the danger, the social stigma, and the 'what if it goes wrong?' aspect, I just can't imagine that chopping off my wang would make me feel like a woman. You may feel as if you can actually *be* the opposite sex with enough surgery; not me. I am what I am, and it has taken a lot of pain and work to get to a pint where I can accept that I am what I am. *All* of what I am.

I've been thinking a bit lately about a 'partial transition'. I certainly wouldn't mind a bit of cleavage, or to get rig of all this hair for good. In the end I think androgyny is an end-goal in itself for me; emotionally and mentally, apparat and physicality. I'll have to do more reading (and get myself to a more solid financial position' before I even consider taking any steps down *that* road IRL. In any case, just because we are flesh doesn't mean flesh is *all* we are. Or that flesh can't be changed, to an extent.

Just think of what amazing things the future might hold.

Wow, that was cathartic. Thanx, CJ!![/i]

I have often asked myself that question: am I happy with my body. But the question is probably more accurately, "I am happy with this sex?" It is not the body per se but the sex of the body I inhabit.

Am I happy with my body? No. I need to lose weight (working on it) and I wish I had more upper body strength (kind of working on it).

Am I happy with my sex? For the most part, yes. I would say that 99% of the time I enjoy being male. There are times when I wish I were actually female, but then the question arises, Do I really want to be female or do I simply (or not so simply) desire to express "woman within". Tough question without an answer, at least for me at this point.

Am I happy with my gender? Another question. I would say in some ways, no. Would life be easier if was just male? Probably. But at the same time, I like living in both worlds. I like being able to have masculine and feminine traits. Being a follower of the Eastern philosophies, to me it is trying to live in balance: yin/yang. If you are too yin or too yang, you are out of balance and lose harmony.

Just as a funny side note about all this: After my SO found out about my CDing we were lying in bed talking. I was trying to explain the need to express my feminine side, to which she replied, "can't you plant a garden?" It was a funny comment raised a good question, which I will post as a new thread.

Aeryn (being too deep today)

Aeryn, Looks to me like you are planting a garden, honey and it's coming up all roses!!!!! congratulations.
Virginia

I really like this topic and it is interesting how it has gone from the gender aspect of our bodies to a lot of other aspects of our bodies.

I am one of those guys that people who don't know better sometimes think looks a bit scary. On the other hand the scary types sometimes seemed to think I made a good target so I couldn't have been that scary. All in the body language I think.

I love sports. I love the feel of my body moving and exerting itself. More than anything as a kids I loved playing baseball in the street in front of our house.

And, I am fairly uncoordinated. I was never going to be a good player. Sometimes I would feel like there was a graceful person trapped in the body of a klutz. I learned to enjoy it without being terribly good at it, and for that I am very thankful.

Later on in life I took up sports that were less eye-hand oriented, like running. Still loved the feel of it. And I don't take enough car of myself to still do it so now I walk instead and love that.


I don't know why, I guess I was just lucky. I have known a number of men over the years who could be very loving and nurturing (in a non sexual way-why do I feel that has to be added?) and I got comfortable with that aspect of me. The friendly bear. Of course sometimes the old stuff I learned as a kid comes back about the only feeling real men ever have is anger. But not too often.

Expectations of us based on our appearance can do a real number on us. Every now and then someone will look at me and lock their car door. Not too often and when they do I am clear that this is their stuff. But I remember talking to a guy who felt that this had just happened to hm once more than he was ever going to be able to stand. To him it was about color, not sex. Likewise when I walk through our local ghetto the kids offer me drugs. I thought this was because I was white until I found out that the kids do this to everyone who looks like me, and I am now refering to something else about me that has nothing to do with race or gender. Not quite sure how to express it but the kids all know what it is.

Not sure where I am going with this but I loved the topic and wanted to put my two cents worth in. I guess it is about transcending our bodies and others expectations of us based on that. And I guess that is good. Religions after all are always telling us to transcend the physical...........after the body dies we will still be around so we are not defined by our bodies.

Thanks CJ

Andrea