Crossdressers-Haven.com

Hi,

It's been a while since I have posted here, but I read here all the time. I have been divorced now for about 4 1/2 yrs, and have been trying to figure out the dating thing, and dated a few ummm....less than ideal women. I am a bit emotionally beat up, my soul is tired, and I have gotten to a point where I am thinkin I might just be happier alone, although being with the right woman really does sound nice. I have pretty much given up hope of finding her. Anyway, recently, 3 women have expressed interest in me. I kinda freaked out because one was coming on way too strong. One thing that I find now, that I haven't found in the past, is that I feel guilty getting into a relationship, knowing what I know about me. I am a very honest person, and I expect honesty from the person I am dating. I know I am a CD'er, but that isn't something you blurt out on a first date. I have tried waiting until the relationship is well established and a trust is formed, and I have also revealed it fairly early on in the relationship. I have been lucky enough to have dated women that didn't immediately reject me for it, but I do believe it has played a significant role in why the relationships didn't work out. So, now, when a woman shows interest in me, I think to myself, ummm well, if you REALLY knew me, you wouldn't be interested. But they are interested, and I tend to resist, because right now I can't really take any more heartache. Then they think I don't like them, and then they get their feelings hurt, and then I feel bad. I don't know what to do. I don't know how to rationalize keeping this a secret from someone interested in me, and still being honest. I don't want to end up alone, but to meet someone new, eventually they have to know, and then I am a liar, if I don't tell them. When is the right time to tell so you are not a liar? Just seems everyone I touch, either gets hurt, or hurts me. Those are both the last things I want. I know this is a bit rambling, but the feelings are difficult to put into coherent words, and I apologize for that. Basically it comes down to this. I feel guilty putting up a front, that is not the complete me, in getting someone to like me, only to later, reveal that I am not what I presented, yet I expect honesty on their part. Any suggestions on how I can mentally rationalize keeping this secret from someone I like, and likes me, and we are trying to get to know each other?

Hi Laura,

What a beautiful post, one that cuts right to the chase. 23 years ago my marriage of 12 years came to an end. I came out of that with a resolve to work on myself, so that I could become the kind of person that could get the kind of woman that I wanted.

Well I managed to get to the place where I was sought after by many women in the community where I lived. And then I felt cheated or let down. Many of those women liked what they saw, but were unable to return what they seemed to value so highly in a man.

I have found that people do not look at themselves unless they have been put in a place where there is a reason to do so. And that puts us cross-dressers who have had to take a serious look at ourselves (this does not include those of us who are entirely focused on changing the world to obtain contentment) at a disadvantage.

Now this is not saying that I view myself as being perfect. I will be the first to admit that I have my faults, and I am indeed thankful for them. And the outcome of all this is that I have resolved to do what is necessary to love and nurture myself, for myself. And since I started doing that I have not had a good reason to look back. I have no regrets.

Finding a mate later in life who has been through a failed relationship (like a marriage) is not the same as finding one early in life and growing up together. They usually come with a lot of undesirable baggage.

Love Darlene.

Laura Ashcroft wrote: Any suggestions on how I can mentally rationalize keeping this secret from someone I like, and likes me, and we are trying to get to know each other?

Don't!

The issue here is trust as well as honesty. I figure that after three weeks of dating, you'll know how serious things may be getting.

That is the time to discuss your being transgendered or a CD or how ever you want to approach the subject.

If you feel, after telling them, that you "have been lucky enough to have dated women that didn't immediately reject [you] for it, but [you] do believe it has played a significant role in why the relationships didn't work out," then you'll have to accept that and move on.

The trust issue comes to the forefront when you say:

So, now, when a woman shows interest in me, I think to myself, ummm well, if you REALLY knew me, you wouldn't be interested. But they are interested, and I tend to resist, because right now I can't really take any more heartache.

This means to me that you don't trust them to be honest with you. This is similar to choosing not to tell them at all (until they find out one way or another). It means you don't trust them and women do not like being lied to about our being CDs.

It appears that you'll have heartache either way you choose to go. Tell and lose her, hide it and lose her later. But if you hide it, then you'll feel bad for hiding it. I'd rather have the heartache, without the feeling bad on top of it.

But if you tell her and don't lose her because you were honest, and you trust her, then you may have the relationship you desire.

Of course the "when and how to tell" question is one that all of us have struggled with, and I'll be the first to admit that as a younger person I didn't handle it very well, myself. But as I've gotten older and less nervous about how others viewed me, here's the way I've come to look at it:

The fact that you have gender issues, or simply are compelled to crossdress, is a personal matter, and not one that you are obliged to share with every casual date. If you have a close relative who is severely mentally ill, but you, as far as you know, are okay, you're not "living a lie" if you don't immediately share that information with your current girlfriend. Similarly, she probably hasn't told you the amount of her Visa Card balance, or the fact that she's a couple of months behind in the payments. Some things aren't necessarily the business of friends -- even close friends.

At some point, though, if you're lucky, things will change. One or the other of you will confess to having feelings for the other. If the indication is that the feeling is mutual, then the process of sharing intimacies can begin in earnest, including things that would be important to know if one is in a full-blown Relationship (note the capital R). When that time comes, you're going to have to talk about this aspect of your personality.
Everyone is going to address the subject in their own way, and I wouldn't dream of trying to suggest some sort of universal "script." On the other hand, there are two aspects that I think are pretty crucial:

1. While this is a serious matter, you should not disclose your CDing propensities as if they were some sort of great shame that you are "confessing." If you present it without tears or drama, but simply as a personal matter that you preferred to keep private until the appropriate time, you're less likely to come across as either a deviant or a needy, dependent person. At the same time, you're acknowledging that this part of your makeup puts you in a minority class that some find uncomfortable. If you're grown-up and matter-of-fact about it, you increase the chances that your friend will receive it the same way.

2. If there's a feminine component to your personality, and if it's important enough that you realize you can't deny it, then it shouldn't come as a complete surprise to your friend. All I mean by that is that during the earlier stages of your frienship, you should NOT have been actively painting a false picture of the "real you" by behaving like some sort of mega-macho type. If you had always showed up for your dates dressed like a lumberjack, chewing tobacco, and eager to share the latest cruel misogynistic joke, then it becomes a lot harder. Moreover, if you've been acting like Jesse Ventura, and your friend is attracted to and expects that type of person in a mate, well, you're less likely to have a positive outcome.

Finally, as a corallary to the above, by the time you're ready to talk about your gender stuff, you shouldn't be totally in the dark as to how she might react. If you don't know enough about her to gauge her level of acceptance of people who are different, or her general feelings about assigned gender roles, then you don't know enough.

In my opinion, these are issues of intimacy (which is not a synonym for sex, by the way), and are appropriately shared when a frienship is on the point of becoming an intimate relationship.

Once again, just my dos centavos. With respect,
.......Tamara Segunda

HI Laura,

I am going to give the gg perspective....I think one should tell before being intimate with a woman, but not until you beleive that the relationship is totally heading in that direction. If you also are geting mixed signals about how 'acepting' a woman will be there is always a way to drop hints regaarding their thoughts on gay marriage or other thigns which might indicate how 'open' a woman is. You can usually bet that if she is a homophobe or seems very clsoed minded on those subjects crossdressing is going to be on her 'wrong' list.

My husband when he was single had a talk show that he had taped dealing with crossdressing qued on his vcr when a girl was coming over for dinner. He just let the tape play out and then casually asked what she woudl do if her 'son/brother/dad' was a cd. That usually gave a prety honest response and let him know before going to far that it would not work out. He used to tape shows and then watch them later, so it did not seem that odd if they show was not current that week.

Hugs and good luck finding a cool woman.

I know they are out there!

hugs
kathy in canada

Laura Ashcroft wrote:Hi,

It's been a while since I have posted here, but I read here all the time. I have been divorced now for about 4 1/2 yrs, and have been trying to figure out the dating thing, and dated a few ummm....less than ideal women. I am a bit emotionally beat up, my soul is tired, and I have gotten to a point where I am thinkin I might just be happier alone, although being with the right woman really does sound nice. I have pretty much given up hope of finding her. Anyway, recently, 3 women have expressed interest in me. I kinda freaked out because one was coming on way too strong. One thing that I find now, that I haven't found in the past, is that I feel guilty getting into a relationship, knowing what I know about me. I am a very honest person, and I expect honesty from the person I am dating. I know I am a CD'er, but that isn't something you blurt out on a first date. I have tried waiting until the relationship is well established and a trust is formed, and I have also revealed it fairly early on in the relationship. I have been lucky enough to have dated women that didn't immediately reject me for it, but I do believe it has played a significant role in why the relationships didn't work out. So, now, when a woman shows interest in me, I think to myself, ummm well, if you REALLY knew me, you wouldn't be interested. But they are interested, and I tend to resist, because right now I can't really take any more heartache. Then they think I don't like them, and then they get their feelings hurt, and then I feel bad. I don't know what to do. I don't know how to rationalize keeping this a secret from someone interested in me, and still being honest. I don't want to end up alone, but to meet someone new, eventually they have to know, and then I am a liar, if I don't tell them. When is the right time to tell so you are not a liar? Just seems everyone I touch, either gets hurt, or hurts me. Those are both the last things I want. I know this is a bit rambling, but the feelings are difficult to put into coherent words, and I apologize for that. Basically it comes down to this. I feel guilty putting up a front, that is not the complete me, in getting someone to like me, only to later, reveal that I am not what I presented, yet I expect honesty on their part. Any suggestions on how I can mentally rationalize keeping this secret from someone I like, and likes me, and we are trying to get to know each other?

Thank you all for your responses, they do help. Let me add some information based on the replies here.

DonnaT wrote:

I figure that after three weeks of dating, you'll know how serious things may be getting.

That is the time to discuss your being transgendered or a CD or how ever you want to approach the subject.

The earliest I ever told a gf about it was 3 months, and that felt kind of soon. I have had gf's use it against me and blackmail me with it. I am in the closet, and I really want to stay there. Every person I tell can take it upon themselves to "out" me to the rest of the world, especially the ones that live locally and know where I hang out. So I do know I NEED to trust the person enough to know they wouldn't do that.

TamaraSegunda wrote:

If you had always showed up for your dates dressed like a lumberjack, chewing tobacco, and eager to share the latest cruel misogynistic joke, then it becomes a lot harder.

I wear boots, wranglers, Tshirt, and cowboy hat on a daily basis. This is as much the real me, as me in a dress. It's just the real male me. Oh, yeah, and I do chew tobacco . My male and female sides are very different from each other, and to the one's I have told my secret, they are very shocked. So this does make things harder.

Kathy SO wrote:

I think one should tell before being intimate with a woman, but not until you beleive that the relationship is totally heading in that direction

If you mean before having sex with a woman, I've had that happen on a third date, so, that may be a bit early. I definately wouldn't tell before we were committing to each other, but probably shortly afterwards.

Part of the gist of my post was not conveyed well. When a woman expresses interest in me, I guess I kind of put myself in their shoes, and look at myself. As a woman would I want to date me, knowing what I know about me? No. There are lots of guys out there, and with most of them, they wouldn't have to put up with this kind of BS. So then I tend to feel guilty about persuing getting to know them, and letting them get to know me without revealing what I consider a "deal breaker" secret. Yet it is a secret which I have to be very careful who I tell, and that takes some time for me to get a sense of that person and for trust to build. Does that make sense?

Laura wrote:

As a woman would I want to date me, knowing what I know about me? No. There are lots of guys out there, and with most of them, they wouldn't have to put up with this kind of BS.

I'm no therapist, Laura, but you seem to me to have self-image issues that go beyond simply CDing. BS??? Well, to paraphrase a Russian author, Everyone has to put up with BS in their own way. Sure, the next guy may not have gender issues, but maybe he has anger issues, or drug issues, or honesty issues, or maybe he has some other harmless kink that a given woman may find either disgusting -- or endearing. But you don't sound like you're willing to give them -- or yourself -- a real chance. Please believe me when I tell you that if you aren't okay with it, it's a good bet that she won't be, either.

I truly mean this kindly, but if you have accurately stated your feelings, then maybe you aren't ready to be in a relationship at this time. I don't know how you go about doing it, but you really, really need to work on accepting yourself. With sincere best wishes,
.......Tamara Segunda.

Hi Laura-
Well, I'm glad I read your second post before I replied. The part about it being a close community where they could really do damage to you gives me pause--I haven't thought about that aspect of dating, at all.

My informal rule would be the third date, which is close to the third week mentioned by Donna. Even by that time, expectations are running high, in my experience.

The thing is, this is such a shocking piece of news to have to break! It's been pointed out again and again, that our OWN acceptance of it comes only after years of work and compromise. And she's got to find some way to take it all in in one evening? It really makes it hard, because YOU know the impact it has. That's what I read in your post, when you talk about them putting up with it.

It's tempting to want to put off telling, just so you can enjoy a normal relationship for a time. But I think you end up paying a high price for that, because then the expectations are WAY up there by then. A woman who might think about CDing and consider it on a third date will just be angry and upset if it's three months into it. At least, I would be, and as a guy I always ended up feeling like women did in many situations. That would be one of them. I'd definitely want to know early on.

Tamara,

Yes, I know well I have self-image issues. I am not ok with me and CD'ing. I have never been, and I don't know when I will be. I will say, since I have joined this site, I have improved. Lots of good wisdom here. I agree with you that I am probably not ready to be in a relationship, which is why I draw away from them, I think. The scary part is, when will that end? I am pretty sure someone will say, when I accept myself. I agree, but that is easier said than done.

Anita, thank you for your response. The only thing I disagree with what you say, is that after 3 weeks (or 3 dates) there is no trust relationship established, and I can't go out on that kind of limb without some kind of idea what they will do with the information I provide them. It is like a wicked catch 22.

I think my current course of keeping out of relationships, trying and working on myself, is probably best for now. I don't know how long that will take, but if it is the rest of my life, I am ok with that. Thank you all for your kind words.

I think my current course of keeping out of relationships, trying and working on myself, is probably best for now. I don't know how long that will take, but if it is the rest of my life, I am ok with that.

That is refreshing to hear Laura. It really sounds as if that is actually where you are, and I am a firm believer that one has to work on the issues that are presently occupying the place of authority, that is with in you.

I would like to wish you the success you desire?

Love Darlene.

Hi Laura,

Wow. What an open and honest thread from you. Everyone has had great advice. I'm not sure if what I'm going to say with be a differently worded response that means the same thing, but here it goes.

From everything I've read you seem to be ready to tell someone when you feel the moment is right. It seems you have a good grip on your own feelings and where you are mentally with who you are. I don't think there's a magic number of meetings, dates, days or weeks before you should say something. I do think the sooner the better, but it's you who can see and feel her everyday. I trust you and think you'll know when.

The only advise I would give and this is may be a toughy. Please don't have romantic relations with someone who doesn't know who you are. If she doesn't know or accept you as a CD'r then save both of your souls the heartache of sharing in the most intimate moment two humans can share. Love making is so intimate. Why lay with someone who you haven't been honest with? Do your best to let your passion be bridled by your wisdom of what it will mean to break a woman's heart who thought you were someone else and meanwhile she shared herself with you.

I've slept with 6 women my entire life and 3 of them were more than once. My relationship with my wife is the only relationship that lasted past 6 months. I'm saying that because from talking to other men I'm an idiot for only experiencing adult relations with a handful of women before I got married and over a 30 year period. I'm not saying that so much to say that I'm so far from being a normal guy as I'm saying that people who have more experience with romantic relationships/intimate moments are more mature sexually than me, so maybe my thoughts about before you are intimate are rather juvenile?

I wish you the best and from what I've read from you I think you're a very caring person who has as many self image issues as the next person. You've just been honest and open enough to share your thoughts with us. That's so not easy to do, but I respect and admire you very much for doing it.

Tell her as soon as you're ready, but maybe sooner than you think you're ready is what I guess I'm saying. Sorry it took so long for me to blurt that out and thank you for helping me in this thread too.

Beauty