Deception.

[Loretta Ann]

Hi all,

Something that has been on my mind the last while is the issue of deception. It is said that women have obtained more freedom than men, in that they are able to wear clothing that has been made for men.

Time and time again I read reports of sisters getting to the point where they are able to go out in public cross-dressed, without being read. And these folk are praised among our community. It is implied that is the way to get society to become accepting of us.

Well the difference that I see with this; is that women are not trying to pass themselves off as men, where as usually the male cross-dresser is attempting to deceive the public by presenting as a female.

Cross-dressing in and of itself may not hurt or cause damage to another person. Can we say the same about deception?

What do you all think about this?

Darlene.

Note: if this thread ends up in the hot topic area I will post it again. And those who want to contest it in a manner that disrupts the rest of the forum can do so in the area designed for that kind of stuff. I believe this is something that should be looked at, and discused by every one.

[Sally]

Hi Darlene,

Would you consider that a male who goes to all the trouble to complete his appearance so that he passes as a female is somewhat more than a 'crossdresser'. I'm not referring to people who do it professionally or for theatre etc. Is it feasible to say that a true male to female crossdresser would be content with just wearing the clothes and not completing the 'deception'. Is it reasonable to say that many people are not honest with themselves or their families in not admitting that to varying degrees it's more than just the wearing of the clothes and accessories?

I dress and pass as a female because on one hand I feel safer out in public because I pass and avoid unwanted attention, on the other hand I complete the 'deception' because I wish I had been born female even though I accept that can never fully be and to some degree the 'deception' serves to fulfill the inner need somewhat.

I've been the subject of much angst over the years for saying this, but I always say what I honetly think and I think that for the majority of M/F CD's it really is more than just the clothes, moreso with some than others.

Just a few thoughts in passing (pun intended LOL)

Kind Regards,

Sally.

[Loretta Ann]

Sally,

Certainly I will consider what you have asked me to. And I also concur with every thing else in your post. The point is that you have acknowledged the deception, which is a large part of the reason for this thread.

Although I am one that does not have a pressing need to dress in public. I agree with you that there is more to it than the clothes. While I dress in female attire for all of; approximately forty hrs. per. month, most of that time does not require a bra. But I have times where a bra is necessary. In fact I have what I call special clothing that I like to wear at certain times during each month, which allows Darlene to surface much more than the rest of the time. It is sort of like a special treat, a retreat if you will that helps to keep me safely balanced.

I am unable to get my mind around the fact that if at times I need to wear a filled bra then there has to more to it than the clothes, and therefore deception is part and parcel of the completed package, and needs to be acknowledged and accepted as such.

That puts our plight for acceptance in a whole different ball park than the acceptance from society that woman have obtained for the right to wear what they choose.

That also sets us apart (in the eyes of society) from the civil rights of African Americans, as there was/is no deception involved in their plight. They did/do not need to present themselves as a mix while we need to do just that.

Love Darlene.

[Jan W]

Darlene, Sally and all those interested,

You have raised a point that has facinated me for some time.

I believe that the labels assigned to us while not being offensive are inaccurate.

If we are true crossdressers with the emphasis on dressing we would not assume the whole female persona.

Sally hit the (beautifully enamelled) nail on the head when she said we wish we were born female. A lot deny but I don't know why! (rhyme intended)

We are all on a journey to where?

[Cathy L. Anderson]

Cross-dressing in and of itself may not hurt or cause damage to another person. Can we say the same about deception

I don't know if deception hurts other people--it might. But I see a lot of potential for it to hurt the CD. Living as a "social organism" is hard enough by itself--a complex compromise between give and take, needs and duties, openness and privacy. I would think it is extremely difficult to try to maintain these balances while passing. Often, I fear, the passing CD instead becomes defensive and overly self-absorbed.

[Merinda]

I dont have any guilt if people think that I am a GG , I am not out to do anything wrong by them .
Just walking past some stranger will not have a negative impact on their lives.

[Beauty]

Hey there,

This topic isn't a Hot Topic?

It's a topic and could have been placed in CD'r Talk or Coping. Things get moved to the Hot Topics area when they go into debate that's really not for the part of the non-debating parts of the forum. I do sometimes split topics when they deviate from the author of the thread's intended discussion.

This topic is a great question. I don't know why you'd think it would get moved to a private area?

Ok, I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

Beauty

[Estefania]

This is a very interesting topic.

Is CDing and going out trying to be accepted as just any other woman a lots more than "just the clothes"? For sure it is.

But I disagree on the thought that it has to be related to how we wish we had been born females. True, that's the way it may be for many. But certainly, not for all. Remember ladies... we all are different. Different goals, different motivations. And after all, "crossdresser" is "only" a label to identify what we do, not why we do it. And Jan... there is no such thing as "True crossdressers", or "False crossdressers". There are no points or scales to measure how much of a CD you are.

Deception... Darlene, I think that even though the word is accurate, it has a rather negative connotation to it. Like those who have dressed in order to gain access to women's only areas (i.e. dressing rooms/bathrooms) in order to get "their jollies" by leering at women in those areas, or in order to pick up an unsuspecting drunk at a bar...

Anyway, I know, it doesn't change the fact that we are not who we seem to be (talking about CD's in particular, not TS folks). But I would think that quite a few of us who go out and are somehow passable are not really hurting anybody with our little ~deception~, as long as we behave accordingly to what we are wearing. I have said this before... at least for me, I don't want to be seen or accepted as a guy wearing women's clothes, even though it would take away that deception you were talking about. I rather to be seen just like any other woman...

Mmm... interesting words, Cathy... Could you explain a little bit more what you mean, please?

Ah, and I totally agree with you on what you said, Merinda.

Gaby

p.s. ¡Hola Beauty!

[Jan W]

Interesting Gaby,

While I respect your opinion I feel that there most certainly are scales as to how much of a crossdresser we are. (Merinda's home made TG scale is a good example)

The thing I find most facinating concerning this topic is Darlene's point being about dressing being just about the clothes or something more. Of late I have begun to feel that crossdresser does not really accurately describe me or my TG friends terribly well. As I said I am not upset by the term (or transvestite for that matter although a lot of my friends do not care for that term) but rather am thinking that it does not describe the true situation I find myself in.

I fully realise and appreciate that we are all different but since beginning socialising with a reasonably large number of girls and discussing our feelings at length I have discovered that the majority of us have a LOT in common.

Regarding the deception angle I find that while myself and the majority of my friends would like to pass common sense tells us that this is not always possible. I have never heard one of my girlfriends express a desire to fool or trick anyone and I know my own position to be similar to Sally's in that I prefer to present as a female and draw as little attention to myself as possible and go about my activities with the least possible fuss.

To present as a woman in public hurts no one as long as we behave as ladies and go about our business in a manner consistant to way we wish to present ourselves.

Gaby you agree it is more than the clothes and this is my feeling too.

[Loretta Ann]

Hi Beauty,

It is my belief that no topic is in and of itself a hot topic. It is how it is responded to that can make it hot. In the past there has been references made (by a poster) as having the ability to send a thread there. I feel that this has been used (in the past) to remove a thread to the hidden area by those who strongly disagreed with what was being said, yet were unable to participate in it in the open area in a manner that would not disrupt the rest of the forum.

I in no way intended (or intend) to reflect any of the blame for this on you.

I am now returning to my regularly scheduled thread. Thank you for the support of this topic.

For those of us who wish they had been born female; that is all that it is a wish. Reality says we were not. Any efforts to change that kind of reality are deceptive, which has in the past caused some of us a great deal of hardship. At it’s best SRS fails to complete a desired package. It still leaves some undesired results.

Gaby I think that quite a few of us who go out and are somehow passable are hurting ourselves with our little ~deception~. That is if our goal is to sell ourselves to society; due to the fact that we would need to include the deception as part of the package we are attempting to sell.

I can not see how it would be possible for society to accept us as anything other than a guy wearing women's clothes. In and of itself that would be a hard enough package to sell. Perhaps it is this need (by some of us) to be seen just like any other woman (this deception) that is in our way of acceptance? Perhaps that is our stumbling block?

I too prefer to draw as little attention to myself as possible and go about my activities with the least possible fuss, even though I do not attempt to pass. And I believe this will serve to keep us where we are in terms of acceptance from society. Personally I do not have a problem with that.

Darlene.

[Grace]

This ~deception~ for me is actually more of an irony-- sometimes I feel like wearing a skirt or lipstick as I go about my errands, but I can't without incurring snickers, loss of prestige, huge scorn and possibly physical repurcussions. So, even though I only want to dress slightly, I have to go all the way to where I can pass, thus deceiving people and being accepted. Like others, it is not my intention to deceive or draw attention-- in fact, just the opposite, hence the irony. (I do enjoy dressing to pass on some occasions, too, and enjoy the acceptance that comes with it, but I'm speaking of the other times, when it would just feel comfortable partially dressing, but social mores stand in the way.)

I don't have the nerve to make a stand and say, "yes, I'm a guy who wears a skirt. Here I am, get over it." I would love it if there were enough people bold enough to do so so that it would be commonplace and I wouldn't have to dress more than I really feel like doing. But we're in a dangerous world full of people who treat things they don't understand or aren't familiar with by reacting negatively and sometimes belligerantly. So I'm stuck with deception.

But, think about it-- we decieve people all the time. Do you tell your boss that you don't feel quite up to something (s)he's asked you to do, or do you pretend you're up to it and secretly hope you can pull it off (and hopefully do most of the time)? Do you tell your neighbors what you think of that ugly car they bought? No, we keep certain truths to ourselves on a daily basis. Is this harmful, or something to brood over? Maybe, but this is part of our existential reality.

Grace

[Celia]

Deception . . . hmm . . . . As in dyed hair? Wigs? Toupees? Comb-overs? Hair transplants? Facelifts? Teeth bleaching? Colored contact lenses? Makeup? Push-up bras? Breast implants? Breast enhancers? Breast forms? Padded shoulders? Girdles? Shaved underarms? Shaved legs? Waxing? Electrolysis? . . .

It's one thing if a person deceives with the intent of putting others at a disadvantage and exploiting them, but if a crossdresser takes pains to look more like Diane Sawyer and less like Tex Cobb in a dress, I'm not sure whether we should take him to task.

-Celia

[Loretta Ann]

Hi all

Yes we deceive people all the time, but help me out here? Celia...How do you equate things like dyed hair, Wigs, Toupees, Comb-overs, Hair transplants, Facelifts, Teeth bleaching, Colored contact lenses, Makeup, Push-up bras, Breast implants, Breast enhancers, Breast forms, Padded shoulders, Girdles, Shaved underarms, Shaved legs, Waxing, Electrolysis, with our plight?

How does the above relate to a minority (of a few hundred people) attempting to sell a package to society? Exactly what is the above attempting to sell us? What are they asking us to accept that we don’t already accept?

About ten to fifteen years ago I witnessed a guy in a dress that was invited to (a large Church I attended) give us a message from the pulpit. And this person received an over whelming acceptance from the congregation. This individual also gave the same message to a lot of other churches. And that message was about the freedom for a man to be able to wear a dress.

I don’t think equality with women would be all that hard to achieve. I think it is when one is trying to pass themselves off as some thing other than who they were created to be that gives us the problem.

To society as a whole the reason one is attempting to deceive them is not important. Would it be fair (for society) to reason that if we are willing to attempt to deceive them about who we are, to question what would prevent us from attempting to deceive them about other things? I think it sends a message that we can not be trusted. At least I think that it is the way it is interpreted.

Darlene.

[Celia]

The why of a behavior is of comparable importance to the what. If I've killed someone, I might have to answer to charges of murder; but if I've killed in self-defence - and can establish the fact in court - I am rightfully acquitted. Though attempting to pass may be a hobby for some CD's, for a lot of TG's it's a necessity for survival. There are plenty of places in the United States (and in the world in general) where, if a TG doesn't pass, she'd better not be wearing any item of women's clothing, unless she prefers to be beaten into Swiss steak. Some deceptions are a matter of self-preservation.

On a lighter note, if I attend some CD-specific social function - a dance, say - I'd rather dance with the guy who looks like Diane Sawyer than the one who looks like Tex Cobb in a dress. But that's just me.

-Celia

[Sally]

Well, when I used the word 'deception' I used it rather loosely and that's the reason I enclosed it in brackets. From my point, where I am in the gender mix I rather feel that the times in my life where I had to present everyday as a male was more of a 'deception' then than how it is today. I would suggest that it's impossible for anyone, male or female, to grasp the enormity of how it is having to live every minute of the day presenting as something on the outside which doesn't level up with how it feels on the inside, so for me the clothing and exterior presentation, although not paramount, the clothing did help bring things somewhat into better perspective and I can say with complete honesty that I don't feel one ounce of guilt in doing what I do. Is it deception? Well I suppose to be accurate it is but to me it's a 'good deception' and a necessary one for so many of us, for all the obvious reasons we're aware of.

The only guilt I have ever felt was during the early years when my wife and family weren't aware of my crossdressing and gender conflict. Since I 'came out' I have never experienced any feelings of guilt, anger, frustration etc and life took on a whole different meaning.

Whilst I'm no fan of labels we do live in a label orientated world and as I've said many times previously, if we don't give ourselves an identifying label which is acceptable to each of us personally in the nicest possible way, then society will stick labels on us which serve their purpose not ours and may be offensive or quite inaccurate in description. Without going into long drawn out detail, I used to think at one stage that an accurate description of myself was more of a crossgenderist then a crossdresser, as the clothes were always secondary but they did serve to bring the exterior gender appearance more into line with how I felt inside, if all that makes sense.

Whilst I agree with Gaby in that there are no scales to measure how much of a crossdresser anyone is, there are different degrees to which people take it to, from the person who only occaisonally underdresses right up to those who present the full ensemble publicly. I think what is different is what people try to achieve with it and what need they are trying to satisfy e.g. I can remember when I was very young that the clothing would satisfy that feeling of frustration which used to drive me to take high risks and there was a desperate feeling that I wished someone would find me out, but fear of rejection, ridicule, being ostracised and stigmatised kept me from going that extra little step of putting myself in a position where I would be discovered. As time went by the clothes and occaisonal dressing up fulfilled me less and less to the point where I sought medical help and eventually came out to my wife and family. For many of us it's a long journey and as we reach each level the next one becomes more urgent but that's more to do with gender conflict than crossdressing, but there is an individual level where it plateaus out and it's so peaceful when it's reached.

When I used the term 'true crossdresser' I wasn't trying to imply there are true or false crossdressers as that's just not feasible. If a person crossdresses then they crossdress and that's the simple fact of the matter. Crossdressing is crossdressing, the only thing different is the reasons why people do it, what they are trying to achieve and what it does for them and to what extent they need to create the illusion, and I use the word 'illusion' because no matter how we dress or how many opposite sex hormones anyone takes or how much surgery they have, our 'blueprint' can never be altered.

I'm not suggesting in any way that the following applies to anyone here so I don't want anyone getting up on their high heels about it, but to be blunt, I know men who only crossdress in the privacy of their own home occaisonally for sexual gratification, nothing else, and that's fine, they're not hurting anyone and they're satisfying a need which has to be released, but to me they're no less a crossdresser than others I know who dress up and go out publicly passing as a woman, the only difference is the reasons and the extent they take the dressing to.

Cathy, I was interested in your comment when you say, "Often, I fear, the passing CD instead becomes defensive and overly self absorbed." I'd be most interested in you expanding on your thoughts about this and I'm not sure I can envisage what you're thinking when you say how the 'deception' would harm the CD person, I was more thinking from my experiences with it and talking to others over the years that it has the opposite effect, but I'm always open to suggestion and eager to learn from others.

In an ideal world we wouldn't be having this discussion, but unfortunately such a world doesn't exist and humans being what we are it probably never will. As Grace says, in an ideal world we'd all be able to wear what we wished for whatever reasons we as individuals needed to satisfy, and we'd all be free of ridicule and stigma. In the world we live in much of the fear of us by the community comes from the fact that sexual predators and molesters are males 99% of the time and there is an inherited fear by society that a man in a dress is a threat. The general community, which is made up of people who will probably never personally know a Crossdresser or a TS and therefore never get to experience the fact that in the main we're no different to anyone else, that we're good people to know and have a lot to contribute to the world, but they have that inherited fear of a man in a dress, which is their loss moreso than ours to my way of thinking.

Kind Regards,

Sally.