Crossdressers-Haven.com

Hi all,

In reading some of the posts on the forum, I've noticed that the issue of faith or religious belief, and how it relates to transgenderism, sometimes crops up. It can be difficult for a religious person to reconciliate faith with a practice the Bible explicitly describes as an "abomination" (Deut. 22:5).

I've just read Amber's post, in the "Coping for SOs" section, and was very moved by her struggles with the idea that she may be committing sin by supporting Kyra in her crossdressing.

Although not a "traditionally" religious person myself (okay, I'll admit to Buddhist leanings), the matter of my own crossdressing and its connection to my spiritual life is one I've been examining for years now. I've been fortunate enough to come to some calm place with this.

Were I a Christian (and even though I'm not), I find great beauty, power, and wisdom in the following words, taken from Psalm 139:

For You created my inmost being;
You knit me together in my mother's womb.
I praise You because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
Your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in Your book
before one of them came to be.

Both Amber and Kyra (as well as all persons, everywhere) are "fearfully and wonderfully made." This I believe, and this I hold on to.

Here's a web site that may help those who are having some trouble coming to grips with Deuteronomy 22:5 in their own lives, whether they be TGs or SOs. I found it informative and compassionate; I hope it nurtures you also in your own faith, whatever it may be.

Transvestism, Transgenderism, and Deuteronomy 22:5 (Revised)
http://lisbeth.freeservers.com/deut225.html

Also, you may want to drop in on Rikki's site. It's worth it.
http://crossdressers-forum.com/forums/v ... .php?t=390

Love,
Fearfully and wonderfully made Christina

After reading your post I pulled out my Likrat Shabbat book. It is quiting now for "Worship, Study and Song for shabbath and Festival Services and for the Home" I belive a condensided version of the Torah. There is anouther book that contains that also but I do not have a copy. Any way I galnced through my book and could not find any section that says crossdressing is bad for my religous beleaf. But if I understand the Torah it kind of an istruction manually in way to live your life but not be completly governed by it. Do not let a book, tell you that your bad and will punished. Also in my views of being around other Jews we do not (from my understanding) belive in an afterlife so we live for this one.

After all why would crossdressing be so awful and someone commites murder and ask for a priest for givness that will make things alright. (that is what I am thinking) of course I WILL NEVER EVER SAY AND NO ONE SHOULD BELIVE that corssdressing is as evel or bad as murder.

Just one Jews point of view. I will do more research into it as I somtimes find my religion quit intersting.

Jessie

Oh yea there was recentaly someone said that G-d personally choose Bush to be the president again. Why would he/she ever choose a side in the first places putting one person higher than anouther.

Ok I did a little research and cam across this site that may relate even to Deut 22-5.

http://gendertree.com/Jewish%20View.htm

Jessie

Wow, Jessie! Very interesting site. Thanks for the link.

CJ

Well let me put my two cents in. Now remember this is MY opinion only. First I have been a christian all my life and I was taught the Christ fulfulled the old testament (law) with his death. I follow the believes and wisdom of Christs teaching in the new testament and I find nothing of crossdressing in it. Just my thougths. Carol Ann

Well, it's no secret (not that i want it to be) That Amber and I have stumbled yet aqain as we traverse the road less travelled.
So here's my take...
Yes, I am a Christian. No, I do not believe i am living a sinful existence. I believe there are NO perfect beings on this planet. (only one, a long time ago, was persecuted for me and ALL PEOPLE!) And yes, I believe God loves me. The whole me, and nothing less. I believe I have been put here for a purpose. I think He has a plan for my life. I also think that as I go through life, God will guide me. I pray. EVERYDAY. I do not hide the fact that I am a follower of Jesus. These facts I will atest to.
That being said, I will also add: I have a generous heart. And I do love my fellow man (and woman) And consider all of mankind my bretheren. ( I have to admit, that i have thought about this considerably. Because my predominantly Catholic background predictates an abhoration of the Transgendered community.)
See my dilemma?
I have read the Bible -- cover to cover. And here's what I found. God loves me. It's that simple. I sin, He forgives.(and loves me.) I don't sin, He's still there.(and still loves me.) So I quit worrying about whether or not I am living a perfect existence. I'm not. Nobody can! I am trying to do the best I can. (And if I can do that, I doesn't really matter if I'm in nylons and skirt or not!)
Whew :!: I think I need to sign off now...
Love to all. (I mean it!)

Kyra (the transgendered Christian who is still searching for purpose and reason)

Hi Everyone...

Here is a link I came across that might be of some interest.

http://www.acfnewsource.org/religion/tr ... lergy.html

Lefty

I only believe in myself and the people I love.

Hi all,

I'll admit that I hesitated before posting a topic that deals with religion; people are passionate about their spiritual beliefs and will go to great lengths to defend them, just as they do their political beliefs. I figured that the fine folks on this board respect and value each other's views enough for this not to stir up controversy and that we could explore this facet of our being in a spirit of community and self-understanding. I'm quite relieved to see that this seems to be the case. Thanks to all of you who posted.

Here's my own take on the matter. I always try to adopt a sympathetic stance regarding a person's spiritual and religious beliefs, meaning I try to see and understand those beliefs from the believer's own perspective (without necessarily sharing that same faith). It makes my own world much richer when I manage to see how people consider themselves linked to the realm of things spiritual--through their own eyes. This requires dialogue. Dialogue fosters understanding and growth. I'm glad you're willing to participate.

Although I don't belong to any particular church (or don't subscribe to the beliefs of any particular faith, for that matter), I do feel a spiritual kinship with the life around me, in the sense that I feel "connected" to the earth below me and the sky above me, as well as to the people, animals, and all the other living things of whose world I am a part. For many, this kind of connection is religious. But not for me. That it is so to others is fine by me, though. I respect that.

My crossdressing has been a powerful source of guilt and shame for most of my life. As I grew up, my sense of myself as a deviant "monster," as someone who was psychologically, emotionally, and spiritually deformed, was a tremendous weight to bear. Not because of anything written in the various holy scriptures of the world (although there are stipulations against CDing in some of them), nor because of any judiciary implications (although, again, there are, throughout the world, many laws against CDing). No, the load was heavy because of the way people, not words, affected me. I knew, from a very young age, that what I did, you just don't do. It was an affront to my family, an affront to my culture, an affront to nature, an affront to God (the word "abomination" so much stayed in my mind when I was young that I kept seeing myself in the "abominable snowman" whenever I read tales about him--I was frightening to others, I couldn't believe it!). This perceived opprobrium coloured my sense of myself as a person worthy--or, rather, unworthy--of other people's respect and love. Or of God's love, for that matter. Hence my turning away from religion.

I've since softened up a bit, moving from atheism to an agnosticism coupled to a softcore regard for Buddhism's more philosophical and psychological elements. Traditional Western faiths are ethics-based (how should I live in the world?) whereas traditional Eastern faiths are more metaphysics-oriented (how is the world--myself included--made?). For myself, I think I need to consider a mixture of both (with, admittedly, a little bit of none at all).
I now see my sense of connection to life as a way of loving the divine unseen. St-Augustine once said, "Love God, and do what you will." I take this to mean: Have a regard for what matters to your soul, your spirit, your deepest self, and nothing you are or do will be in opposition to that. In my book, this includes the expression of my own gender variance. I'm not any less worthy of God's (or anyone else's) love for it.

The 19th-century Indian saint, Ramakrishna, is alleged to have said, "The winds of God's grace are always blowing; it is for us to raise our sails." I raise my sails by striving to be who I am. And I am moved.

Again, thanks to all for posting here (and for putting up with this rather "windy" post ). Religious beliefs (along with politics and sexuality) are so close to our deepest concerns that we often find it difficult to talk about them. But I think we must, if we're to better learn who we, and those around us, truly are.

Peace,
Christina

Here is another site for Christians and Crossdressing that has some good perspectives:
Grace & Lace http://members.aol.com/gnlnews/index1.html

Anne

Wow CJ
You impressed the hell out of me (pun intended!)
Religion is a VERY passionate topic. One I don't usually discuss outside my faith. But I like your take on everything. The fact that you can listen to someone and try to see things from their perspective shows an immensity in your character.
I always try to do the same (emphasis on the word "try") I'm not overly opinionated, but I do step on toes from time to time. In fact, my earlier post in this thread was done after 3 mixed drinks last night. I needed to soften myself abit before i start preaching.
My problem is that I sometimes get tunnel vision and only see my path on the road of life. It's refreshing to get another point of view on these matters.
Thanks for being so honest.

(Big embrace!)
Kyra

Okay, since we're on the topic of religion...

Here's an interesting translation of "The Lords Prayer"
I say interesting, because it has been quoted as the "Cosmic version" If I offend anyone, My sincerest apologies. It is not my intention to offend, merely to share something that crossed my desk a while back.

Here goes:
The Lord’s Prayer translated from Aramaic to English


O cosmic Birther of all radiance and vibration.
Soften the ground of our being and carve out a space within us where your
Presence can abide. Fill us with your creativity so that we may be
empowered to bear the fruit of your mission.
Let each of our actions bear fruit in accordance with our desire.
Endow us with the wisdom to produce and share what each being needs to Grow and flourish.

Untie the tangled threads of destiny that bind us, as we release others
from the entanglement of past mistakes.
Do not let us be seduced by that which would divert us from our true
purpose, but illuminate the opportunities of the present moment.
For you are the ground and the fruitful vision, the birth-power and
fulfillment, as all is gathered and made whole once again.


Soooooo, input anyone?
Kyra

While I have not been very religious, over the past several years, I do recall that there exists a passage, in the Bible (and I don't know where), that basically reads:

Do not pretend to be something you are not.

Soooo, in light of that, I do not pretend to not be a crossdresser. Simple as that.

Hugs.

Hi all,

Kyra,

Thanks for the kind words. My quest (if I can call it that) for understanding who I am includes religious and spiritual issues; I'm always interested in what other people know or believe because I can then try to see how it applies (or doesn't) to me. Remaining open to other ways of seeing, and being in, the world can never be anything other than a plus, I think.

The "Cosmic Edition" of the Lord's Prayer is fantastic! Thanks for posting that. The way it's worded, it's something people can easily embrace, across cultures and across time. Bravo, Kyra!

Marilyn,

Are you sure you're not thinking of Hamlet 1:3?

This above all: to thine ownself be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Love,
Christina

I had idea (not the word I wanted to use but could not fifure how to spell even close the word I wanted).

G-d as far I know only gave us 10 laws. Now the rest of the laws are created by man (general term). Whern not many laws in the religous books written at time when the human life span was about 30 to 40 years and the polulation depended on a man and woman having children? If so in our modern area do not many of those laws seam arcaic (please no ofense to any one just asking)?

I am just wondering if that seams about write to other people. After all is not better to be good to one anouther than to try make every one the same.

Jessie