Crossdressers-Haven.com

Hi all,

A simple question: what is your true self?

We were told, by the author of the thread on "Masculine Stress" that our further comments would be appreciated. Obviously, my own comments were not appreciated, even though they were offered in the spirit of that invitation, for the author reacted violently against my own views, preferring to see them as a challenge not only to himself but to all "unsuccessful" crossdressers.

Nowhere in my reply in that particular thread did I say that, in order to be considered a true crossdresser, a man needed to have the desire to pass. This is so far from what I actually believe (and from what I actually said) that I'm wondering if the originator of the thread has a clear grasp of the meaning of the expression "smoke screen."

Normally, I'd just stand back and let this kind of purposeful miscommunication pass. But I'm not willing to let this one go because the issue is too important to me. I'll repeat here what I said in that thread, but I'll put it in a simplified point form so that no misunderstanding is possible.

1. When a crossdresser says that he would feel undue stress at the thought that he needed to pass (presumably, in order for him to consider himself a true crossdresser), it doesn't change the fact that he's still a crossdresser. There are many varieties of crossdressers (and many ways to crossdress). Hence, not all apples are Granny Smiths. (And that was a pun, by the way... men as "Grannies"... I guess it gets lost on the humourless, though.)

2. There are men who crossdress for whom the discrepancy between their anatomical sex and their gender identity is so slight that they have no need to engage into the social ramifications of the expression of their true selves (call this "passing"); it could very well be that this is the majority of crossdressers, I don't know. Here, their "true selves" remain very much connected to their bodies ("jewels,", testosterone levels, etc.)

3. And this was my main point in the "Masculine Stress" thread: there are, on the other hand, men who crossdress for whom the discrepancy between their anatomical sex and their gender identity is so great that they are forced to locate their true selves in a rather more feminine identity; this is a true self that will wither, sicken, and possibly even die if it never finds expression outside the living room's four walls. This feminine identity can only be considered a "smoke screen" by people unwilling to entertain the notion that a "true self" resides just as much (if not more) within the mind as it does within the body.

Of course, I understand the subtext here: chances are great that the person in point number 2 is a crossdresser and the person in point number 3 is a transsexual. Chances are great, yes, but they're not absolutely 100% sure. Again, there are many ways to be a crossdresser. And it rankles just as much to be told we aren't just because we have a need to pass as it does to be told we aren't because we have no such desire or need.

What I said in the "Masculine Stress" thread is that, all that can be said of the fact the original author feels no need to pass, is that the original author feels no need to pass. It was not a judgment meant to suggest that that author was not a "successful crossdresser" (to me, a "successful crossdresser" is one who listens to his "true self"--regardless of whether he only wears a pair of panties under his suit or dresses en femme 24/7/365). I find it hard to understand why the author so strongly objected to the notion that there are men out there who, because they listen to their "true self," feel the need to pass. Is such a man to be considered any less a crossdresser because his "true self" doesn't accord with his "jewels" and "testosterone levels"? This kind of rejection of who a person truly feels they are can be expected from mainstream society... but from within our own community? It sucks, I tell ya.

Anyway, all this of course begs the question: What is your true self? Where do you locate it? Is it in your body? In your mind? In your heart? On your birth certificate? Where?

Love,
CJ

Is it in your body? In your mind? In your heart?

Hi CJ,

As always, I can only speak for myself here. I would have to answer yes to all of these questions.

I see my true self every time I look in a mirror whether I'm wearing boy clothes, girl clothes or nothing at all.

Having been a software engineer for more than thirty years, I could sit here for hours trying to use logic and assigning yes/no answers to all of this. Been there, done that. All I got for my trouble was a whopper of a headache and no answers. This question defies logic.

No, these days I take a much more spiritual approach to who and what I am. I can see the arguement that the very fiber of my true self must, by default, include my physical body. I also know that my emotional self is somewhat in conflict with that physical body. And, as I said, when I try to use my brain to rationalize a solution to that conflict, that is when the trouble begins. That's what causes my feelings of stress regarding crossdressing and being somewhat transgendered.

But, if I just let go, allow the emotional part to express itself and just accept that I am who I am, then the stress goes away and I can deal with the rest of my life.

It took a lot of years and a lot of work to get where I am now. It was not an easy thing. And, I still have days where I struggle. I am also grateful that I fall into the category you describe in item 2 of your post though the discrepency I feel is greater than your description implies.

Body-Mind-Heart(Soul?) - Individually, none of these can stand on its own. But I firmly believe that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. And that is what gives me peace.

Love,
Kathy

Hmmm. I don't know that I can put it in any specific location.

Sitting at home with the family, I am comfortable in, for example, wearing just a cami top. I don't have a need to fix myself up to pass. Is my comfort in the mind, heart or body? Probably all three, and I prefer to call it "In the Soul".

Not having much of a chance to go out in public, I feel that I could just up and go out looking like I looked at home, with no need to fix myself up to pass. However, most every time, as few as that's been, I go out I do fix myself up in a futile attempt to pass. But I do find it frustrating, at times, to have this feeling that I need to fix myself up before going out, and thus have said, to heck with that, and gone outside as is, to the mailbox, for example, sans wig and makeup.

I know that I need to dress, and do not necessarily need to pass. When it comes to putting on a wig and makeup, I like the look and enjoy it, but it's not a necessity as much as the dressing is. So maybe using the wig and makeup is more in the mind than in the soul.

Right now I'm wondering if this is what you meant CJ.

["In the plain text CJ" Wrote:]
We were told, by the author of the thread on "Masculine Stress" that our further comments would be appreciated. Obviously, my own comments were not appreciated, even though they were offered in the spirit of that invitation, for the author reacted violently Your sure you know me that well hey? against my own views, preferring to see them as a challenge not only to himself but to all "unsuccessful" crossdressers.
Hello!!! Good morning there!!! That is taking quite an assumed leap. Quite to the contrary Captain, Your comments were very much appreciated, as are your comments in this thread. It gives me the opportunity to address something that I have wanted to do for some time now.

Being as you have stepped up to the plate, I do not consider it dumping on another as some here appear to have no problem with. Pun purposely intended.

Nowhere in my reply in that particular thread did I say that, in order to be considered a true crossdresser, a man needed to have the desire to pass. This is so far from what I actually believe (and from what I actually said) that I'm wondering if the originator of the thread has a clear grasp of the meaning of the expression "smoke screen."

For me a clear grasp of the meaning of a smoke screen (in the context that I used it) is something that can take a thread off course and/or something that avoids the issue that is being discussed. Perhaps you have another definition?

After I replied to your post I thought I should have asked you why you posted the comments that I addressed? And how you felt they contributed to the issue being discussed? I really cannot see any direct connection.

Normally, I'd just stand back and let this kind of purposeful miscommunication pass. Another huge leap of assumption. But I'm not willing to let this one go because the issue is too important to me. I'll repeat here what I said in that thread, but I'll put it in a simplified point form so that no misunderstanding is possible.

1. When a crossdresser says that he would feel undue stress at the thought that he needed to pass (presumably, in order for him to consider himself a true crossdresser), Cut the crap will you. It wasn't at the thought. It is the negative effects the action would have in being ones true self it doesn't change the fact that he's still a crossdresser. There are many varieties of crossdressers (and many ways to crossdress). Hence, not all apples are Granny Smiths. (And that was a pun, by the way... men as "Grannies"... I guess it gets lost on the humourless, though.)

I don't buy it....to easy to use that as a cop out. Humor in text needs to be identified as such, is that not why the similes have been provided? And by the way I have had many pleasant days dressed as a Granny. Something wrong or funny about that?

2. There are men who crossdress for whom the discrepancy between their anatomical sex and their gender identity is so slight that they have no need to engage into the social ramifications of the expression of their true selves (call this "passing"); it could very well be that this is the majority of crossdressers, I don't know. Here, their "true selves" remain very much connected to their bodies ("jewels,", testosterone levels, etc.)

3. And this was my main point in the "Masculine Stress" thread: there are, on the other hand, men who crossdress for whom the discrepancy between their anatomical sex and their gender identity is so great that they are forced to locate their true selves in a rather more feminine identity; this is a true self that will wither, sicken, and possibly even die if it never finds expression outside the living room's four walls. This feminine identity can only be considered a "smoke screen" by people unwilling to entertain the notion that a "true self" resides just as much (if not more) within the mind as it does within the body.

The basics of what the true self consists of is not hard to define CJ. In each and every one of us it is a mixture of all that you mentioned. It does not require a long philosophical dialog to understand, as it is each individuals problem to solve for themselves. And certainly does not require defining and/or projecting by another individual as you have attempted to do with me in this thread. Again Pun clearly intended.

Of course, I understand the subtext here: chances are great that the person in point number 2 is a crossdresser and the person in point number 3 is a transsexual. Chances are great, yes, but they're not absolutely 100% sure. Again, there are many ways to be a crossdresser. And it rankles just as much to be told we aren't just because we have a need to pass as it does to be told we aren't because we have no such desire or need.

What I said in the "Masculine Stress" thread is that, all that can be said of the fact the original author feels no need to pass, is that the original author feels no need to pass. It was not a judgment meant to suggest that that author was not a "successful crossdresser" (to me, a "successful crossdresser" is one who listens to his "true self"--regardless of whether he only wears a pair of panties under his suit or dresses en femme 24/7/365). I find it hard to understand why the author so strongly objected to the notion that there are men out there who, because they listen to their "true self," feel the need to pass. Yet another attempt to define another, quite a huge leap if you will. Is such a man to be considered any less a crossdresser because his "true self" doesn't accord with his "jewels" and "testosterone levels"? This kind of rejection of who a person truly feels they are can be expected from mainstream society... but from within our own community? It sucks, I tell ya.

I will tell you what sucks here. It is the projection demonstrated by the author of the plain text. Some thing she once attempted to label me with.

I can only assume that the author of the plain text here has attempted to label me according to the way she would feel, respond, or react in similar circumstances. being that she does not know me as has been clarified by her recent statement that I am a mystery to her.

Understanding that about her is not something that terribly excites me

Anyway, all this of course begs the question: What is your true self? Where do you locate it? Is it in your body? In your mind? In your heart? On your birth certificate? Where?

Keep in mind you have asked for this. I have waited a long time (for the right circumstance) to be able to address this issue, and I wish you well CJ.

Hi Darlene and CJ,

I want to thank you both in taking the high road in disagreeing, but being grammatically pretty decent to each other. It says a lot about the class of this forum and the both of you. Why? Because you're showing that two people can be engaged in a debate (not seeing eye to eye) and still treat each other with respect. Me? I tend to say "I'm out" So I kind of lose out on the kind of growth you two are sharing. I'm not peeing on your legs and telling you it's raining either. I sincerely means what I'm typing.

You both had moments of in your posts (for me as an admin/mod), but you recovered and were respectable and so I didn't have to remove anything.

Thank you both so much and thanks to everyone who has or who will contribute to this thread for allowing Darlene and CJ to talk about their differences in opinions or perceived differences in opinions and work this out between themselves.

This is really a good discussion and I've learned about members here, things that I never knew. It's really cool.

Thanks CJ for starting this thread and thanks Darlene for starting the other thread.

Beauty

Hi all,

Donna, Kathy,

Thanks for your replies. They're forthright and clear.

I'm pretty much with you, Kathy, when you mention the problems encountered when trying to logically reconcile the different possible locations of our true self. Intuitively, like you, I feel that our true self resides not in one specific locus but is rather a gestalt, if you will; the sum, indeed, is greater than its parts. Still, I'll admit I think the brain--yes, very much a part of the body--plays a big role here; were I to lose my "jewels" in an accident, I don't think my sense of what my true self is would be altered all that much (although I cannot say that for sure) but, on the other hand, were I to lose a large part of my brain in an accident, I suspect my sense of who I truly am would be much different. Or maybe not. Who knows? I just know this: the fact that I'm anatomically and genetically a male is only part of the answer.

Donna,

Yes, in a sense, that's exactly what I mean. "In the soul" is as good a way of looking at it as any. I sorta wish we had a word that meant "bodymindheartsoul." Perhaps "being" comes close. Or, "true self." Anyway, I can see some of the tension in you that I see in myself; you're slightly irked at feeling that you need to fix yourself up before you go out--a frustration we wouldn't necessarily feel if we truly had no need to pass. For me, this kind of tension is a wonder to behold. It tells me that we are complex creatures, creatures whose identities are never set in stone, always in flux. Our minds can tell us that, at a given point in time, we have no need for the wigs, makeup, etc., and, at another time, that we're somehow "incomplete" without these accessories. And you know what, Donna? It's all good. It's all good.

Darlene,

Thanks for your honesty. The imperfect person that I am is always willing to learn from others. The more so when those others are willing to clearly and plainly express their views and ideas.

Beauty,

I apologize for giving you a cold sweat. I don't want this thread to disappear; the issue is important to me and I hope others may profit by the thread as well. I don't want this to become a "CJ and Darlene" thread; my purpose in starting this thread was to get an idea what people think their true self consists in. Some have already given their views (the body, the soul, a combination of many things, etc.); I just want to hear what others have to say.

My own view is already a matter of record: I don't think it resides strictly in my maleness (genitals, hormones, genetics, etc.). In keeping with what Merinda said in the "Masculine Stress" thread, that we are expected to act masculine just because we are male is, in this day and age of self-definition, little better than Neanderthal thinking. Society expects this (and Darlene's dictum that "the masses are the asses" never seemed more apt to me than it does in this case); our families expect it, our friends expect it, our neighbours expect it, our co-workers expect it, strangers expect it. It still doesn't mean that we must bow down to these expectations if doing so makes of us a travesty of who we truly are (or, more properly, of who we truly feel ourselves to be).

Peace to all of you, and good night,
CJ

where is my true self?

As I understand it philosophers and thinkers have pondered this with limited success for a long time. I remember in a psychology class the teacher talking quite a bit about the mind brain dichotomy and I don't think that they've figured that one out either. So I think we're getting into opinions here but that's just fine.

I'd say that my true self resides in my soul. In this phase of it's existence my soul seems inextricably connected with both body, brain, heart and probably some other aspects of my being as well.

I think that most of who I am transcends gender but perhaps that's more wishful thinking than I realize.

Let me give and example. What describes me better? Father or Parent? Husband, spouse, lover, friend? Lots of ways to think about these things. In the other thread I said that what I think is most important about this forum is it helps people accept who they are and that it had that effect on me. Secondary to that is the fact that the aspect I was having trouble accepting was crossdressing.

Moving on. Crossdressing itself seems to have several very different etiologys. So that gets confusing too.

So lets go to something I have thought about a bit more. Gender. Society says either or and there is some truth to that, at least in terms of biology for most of us. But even in the objective world of physical body it isn't always either or. Until recently mainstream medical thought said that this must be fixed, that an identity must be assigned and the conflicting identity eliminated, preferably at a very early age. Now some are saying that shouldn't such an important decision be left to the person most affected by it, even though it means waiting till they are old enough to consider this carefully? And others are saying that there is nothing to be fixed in the first place.

So even the (relatively) easily measurable is not simple. On to our personality characteristics. An endless minefield of booby traps for those suffering from any kind of certainty.......

My thoughts is that the traits and behaviors related to gender exist on a continuum. You can be very traditionally male, somewhat traditionally male and so forth. But there is a catch. A la Startrek there seem to be an awful lot of wormholes in this continuum so we can all sorts of variations within the continuum. To borrow another trekism, Infinite diversty in infinite variety. That's us. Gee I thought I would have more to say.........

I did something called EST a long time ago. Thought it was a ripoff hiding itself with a lot of truths. Learned some stuff and never went back.

They asked impossible questions. A favorite was "who are You?" every answer was wrong. I'm Andrea. Do you mean you are your name? I'm me. Your'e a word with two letters? I'm a fireman, parent, adult, girl, drug addict, president, homeless person. None of these things are who I am although I have to admit that drug addict was in danger of beginning to define me.

So even though I have a sense of who I am, who any of us truly are may not be answerable in words. But lets keep trying anyway. Ort to put it another way, if we are going to ask who is our true self in context of gender and presentation of gender to society, how can we ask this and keep it limited to these descriptions of one aspect of who we are. We want to do so because society has told us (and most people in the world in lots of different societys) that this is so very important. But is it?

Great topic. So was the other one

Thanks

Andrea

CJ asks,

"Anyway, all this of course begs the question: What is your true self? Where do you locate it? Is it in your body? In your mind? In your heart? On your birth certificate? Where? "

I believe my true self is many things which go to make the whole, if it's at all possible for me to be complete or whole at any given time, as I believe we never stop evolving during our life. There's an element to personal growth that there's always a state beyond the highest one's endeavors have taken us, so there will always be another step to take, but the possibility of fully awakening the higher self has been aptly demonstrated by enlightened individuals throughout history.

Completeness to me is a continuous, unbroken, outline surrounding an object to show that it's complete with no gaps. A circle is complete in the abstract and it exemplifies wholeness. Every droplet of water is complete too, but I would describe my true self as never being complete, but continually evolving.

To a certain degree, what kept me from being my complete true self was my conditioning, or the pretenses I'd adopted in service of my beliefs about "self" and others. I didn't believe I could be my true self totally and completely as long as I was a slave to my conditioning which began at birth, and that to realize the state of "being my true self," I needed to rise above my conditioned responses to life's challenges, and live in my freedom of choice. So, could I just "let go," to "be myself" and realize fulfillment? Not easy, and this is seldom the case. Most people require a process of "unlearning" some of the habitual responses we've come to identify with whilst growing up. I had learnt to adopt a pose of compliance at a very early age, and later learnt to internalize the split between "me" and "not-me" to such a degree that it was virtually impossible to step outside the box I'd put myself in. The problem is that somewhere along the way I lost track of just how many times the boundary between "me" and "not-me" had been crossed, who I was being "real" for, and which "me" was the "real me" anyway, if that makes sense.

What or where is my true self? I see the physical as a vehicle for the higher self, which is the part of the whole which we must develop in order to rightly perceive the greater reality of life. Such higher self being that part of us which the scientific community refuses to acknowledge exists. There are many ways to describe it, or its parts, and each has value within a particular description of reality. I'm speaking of the Luminous Self, or Soul, that part of us which isn't physical. People may refer to it as the energy body, the light body, the subtle body, the dream body, the lunar body, the astral body, the causal body, the mental body, the etheric body, and so on, as these terms attempt to delineate the various aspects of the luminous self, or rather what constitutes the unseen part of our total being. We can speak of chi, or ki, the aura, the higher self, the inner self, or just the Self, and all of these terms have meaning, but their reality is something we must experience as individuals, if what they describe is to actually be real for us.

To be able to experience our own true self I think we have to realise we live in several realms, even if we aren't always consciously aware of them. They all go to help make up the complete whole of the circle which is us. Our body pertains mostly to the physical material realm, but all of our emotions relate more to another realm i.e energy. Our memories and conditioning shape the way we experience things, our mind is the playground for all these realms to arise in. Although everyday we participate in all these realms, none of them by themself constitutes our total being or true self. We also live the realms beyond limitation, and these realms do reflect the magnificence of our true self or soul.

Life is all about choices, Who we are depends to a large degree on the choices we make. Our individual identity is always evolving, at least in the eyes of the rest of the world it is, as we become what we do, but being our true self often means to stand as an individual in contrast to this concept of self. Nonetheless, our choices shape our character, and we have to live with them and with ourselves for the rest of our lives. Knowing this can make it challenging at times to let go of all concerns in order to be our true complete self.

Kind Regards,

Sally.

Hi CJ,

The thread was never going to disappear. I was thanking you both for taking very deep discussions to the next level.

I don't think this is a you and Darlene thread I was just thanking people for letting you two talk things out while others contributed to the thread. The cold sweats were more like chill bumps, very sudden and then gone.

All is well and you've really got some awesome answers to a very deep question.

Beauty

Hi CJ,

Ahhhhhhhhh??? The eternal question.

CJ wrote:
Anyway, all this of course begs the question: What is your true self? Where do you locate it? Is it in your body? In your mind? In your heart? On your birth certificate? Where?

Since the dawn of man we have been asking "who are we?". All the great philosophers have taken a stab at this question as well as many scientists, doctors and others who make it thier life goal to find out what we are, and it seems no one can answer this question with any definitiveness.

Having said that, I will tell you what I beleive my true self to be as it relates to my transgenderedness. I am first and foremost a person. I have hopes, desires, fears, dreams and needs both physical, such as food and air, and emotional such as love and acceptance.

I did not respond to the "masculine stress" thread because I don't feel those who feel masculine, stress about it. What is stressful is pretending to feel masculine when one does not have those feelings. Whether or not one has the need to pass depends on so many variables I just don't see any way there can be a blanket statement that covers everyone.

I don't feel a need to pass, however, that does not mean I would not like to be passable. I mean, I would like it a lot if I were really a girl. Does that make it a need? I don't think it does. I used to never wear a wig. I liked having my own hair, but the truth is I have a pretty good bald spot on the top back of my head. I simply look better when I wear the wig. Does this make it a need? Again, I don't think it does.

Before, as my sister Rikki would say, my crossdressing career started, I never cared about my appearance at all. I shaved my face every three to four days. I wore jean, too tight usually, and t-shirts, also too tight that did not exactly flatter my overweight body, but I did not care. In high school my mother bought my clothes, in my late teens and early twenties my sister that I was in a band with bought my clothes, then I got married and my exwife bought my clothes. I used to wear K-mart Trax shoes, JC Penny Plain Pockets jeans, and pocket t-shirts. I never owned a suit or put one on until I was 41 years old, and only then because of my job.

Why is that important? Because now I do care how I look. Not if I am necessarily passable, but do I have a nice, neat appearance? It's very weird because I feel that same need to not go out looking like crap now. I am not sure why. Now it makes me self concious to not have my makeup on, or to go out with clothes that have a recent food stain, something that for sure would not have bothered me before.

What is my true self? Well I beleive I am a transexual who will never transition. Does this make me not a crossdresser? Again, I don't think so. I am anatomically male, wearing women's clothes makes me a crossdresser by definition. I identify myself as a crossdresser and it is my beleif that everyone who is born male that wears women's clothes, is a crossdresser up and until the time they transition. Perhaps that is not the case, but that is what I beleieve.

But all this may not be all that important. this discussion about passable or not passable and whether or not it is a need or just a dream may not be all that important either. Who among us, if given the opportunity to present, at the time of our choosing, as an attractive female would not want to? Who among us would say, "no thanks, I don't want to look like an attactive woman, I don't have that need"?

I beleive in the end we are people, first and foremost, as I started this post out. The question is not "who is our true self?", but rather, can I live inside this skin I was given as the person I am?

Love always,
Elizabeth

Elizabeth wrote:Who among us, if given the opportunity to present, at the time of our choosing, as an attractive female would not want to? Who among us would say, "no thanks, I don't want to look like an attactive woman, I don't have that need"?

Um... Me. In all honesty, I really don't have that need.

Love,
Kathy

I am with Kathy on this one Elizabeth.

Hi girls,


Kathy,

I guess it just shows how diffcult it is for any of us to understand why any other of us have this need to crossdress at all. It seems there are as many reasons as there are crossdressers.

For me there is a connection between crossdressing and the desire to present as female, even though I am clearly unpassable, and don't have a burning desire to be passable, in that I would not go to any extroirdinary means to become passable. I don't even wear breastforms. It is difficult for me to phathom that someone would want to wear women's clothes, yet have no desire to appear as a female in any regard.


Darlene,

I guess I am confused. In your explanation of your avatars you said that presenting yourself as certain females, even though they are not you, serves a need you have to present as female. If indeed you don't have that need? Then why do you not use a male avatar?

Love always,
Elizabeth

In Part Elizabeth wrote: I guess I am confused. In your explanation of your avatars you said that presenting yourself as certain females, even though they are not you, serves a need you have to present as female. If indeed you don't have that need? Then why do you not use a male avatar?

Sorry for the confusion Elizabeth, Living through them as opposed to presenting as them... If I were to attempt to present as... It would not be a fantacy... As each avatar clearly states. A very important distinction. As long as I can live through that fantacy I do not have a need to be one. In fact the need living through the pictures meets is not what you think it is, as your response clearly indicates. Note also that the avatars are not one picture but many.

I guess I have not stated clearly enough that there is absolutely no way that I would like to be a female. I have quite enough trouble with who I am, without taking that on. I am just not one of those who thinks they have it better than we do. In fact I think they have it harder than we do.

Also I do not think I would enjoy the clothes as much as I do if I were a woman. I think it would spoil it. So I say No thank you Ma'am I want my cake, but I also want to eat it.

Does that help any?

Darlene,

Perhaps I was misunderstood. I was not saying that all of us would like to actually be female, just have the ability to present ourselves as a beautiful passable woman, at the time of our own choosing, regardless to whether or not it is out in public or in the privacy of our closet where no one knows.

Love always,
Elizabeth