Crossdressers-Haven.com

I've been reading over some of the topics posted here lately...and again I am struck by the pain so many of us are feeling surrounding this whole idea of CDing and the effect it has on our relationships with each other. And what strikes me throughout almost all of them is the struggle we all have trying to put our feelings into words...the struggle to articulate and understand logically something that (to mix my metaphors) seems to slip through our fingers like water.

Can I explain why I crossdress? No, I cannot. Can I explain what I get out of it...somewhat, but not entirely. (relaxation, a sense of well being, an expression of self, an attempt to emulate what I most admire in women, their empathy, their intuition, their ...and this is important, I think..."femaleness"...their non-verbal selves. ) And if this is beginning to sound a bit like Tao philosophy, maybe that's not an accident. I want to experience the yin, after a lifetime of conditioning that seems to have focused entirely on the yang. I am somehow incomplete if I am merely "male." But you see how difficult it is to articulate this in any way that makes sense to anyone else? (I remember reading somewhere...back when I was young and the trees had yet to petrify...back before the invention of paper, as my students would say..."I know you think you know what I meant, but did you realize that I didn't manage to say exactly what I thought?") I'm trying to put words to something that is non-verbal...trying to understand logically what can only be understood on an emotional level...something that can be understood only through empathy. Words are not enough.

All of which brings me to my question. It stems from a suspicion that all the explanations I have read about why so many SO's have trouble with CDing: the threats to their sexuality, the violation of trust, the fears of public disclosure, and so on can only partially explain the reaction I see in my own wife's face every time she notices me online, or I tell her I am going out for coffee with a friend. It's a physical reaction. She tries to hide it, but it's there: a closing over of the eyes...a physical drawing back from me. It's a disgust she cannot hide, though, for my sake, I know she tries. What is it that is behind that reaction? I suspect it's behind the reactions of many of the other SO's who have posted in this forum, too. (Not to mention sons and daughters who have discovered this "weird quirk" in their fathers.) What is it that makes us so disgusting? Why would this one fact, suddenly revealed, make us appear to be an entirely different person in their eyes? They loved us once. They know we still love them, and yet...something has changed. Something huge. We are no longer the person we once were. Even though they may struggle mightily, when all is said and done, in their hearts, they believe there is something wrong with us. We are no longer acceptable partners...maybe even no longer acceptable as human beings. There is a deep seated instinctual reaction happening here, something they can not control, no more than I can control this "quirk" of my own personality.

We no longer talk (or touch) in our household. (Silence is better than pain.) How do I deal with whatever is happening here?

Karen,

I would like to start by saying that I truely feel for you. I know the pain and anguish that one can feel when we are rejected by our loved ones, because of disclosure. Despite the fact that we are the same exact person that we were before disclosure, we are not treated as such.

I do not beleive the words exist to explain what it is we feel, and why we are compelled to do what we do. It is my beleif that those who reject us, do so from a deep and long social conditioning that tells them we are defective. But not just defective, we are so defective we need to be shunned, as if we no longer existed.

Some will feel ashamed for associating with us or for having had associated with us. SO's can not tell anyone for fear they will be shunned also, for condoning such feelings. Only the very strong, open minded and self confident are able to accept us for who and what we truely are. For so many others, the social pressure is just too much.

One can not control what others think, say or do and it is wasted effort to try. I do not beleive there is any path other than making oneself happy. Living your life for others will make no one happy in the end. What one can do is seek happiness. Those who live happy contented lives attract like people to their fold.

It is not necessary that we are able to articulate what makes us happy. It is only important that we answer the calling to be happy. Everyone can read happiness in ones face.

Love always,
Elizabeth

God, Elizabeth, wisdom born of the ages is with you!!!!
My only addition to what you have so eloquently stated is that those of us who are blessed enough to find this gift that comes with crossdressing is one thing, but to take that gift of love, empathy, understanding, caring, gentleness - all those qualities that we can bestow on others to make their lives "more livable," is what is going to complete us. You are right in the social imprinting that takes place early on in a woman's life. That men are strong, ruthless, hunter-killers- defenders of their families, providers. Their down side is that they have no soft emotional side they don't listen, thye don't like to "just talk." If you as a woman can live with the down side then that is what men are all about! Yes, for some of our knuckle draggin brethren it is true, but we WE have found something inside of us that defies the social imprint and society just doesn't get it or want to get it they are happy with the status quo!
The bottom line is (and Elizabeth has and I am going through the culturally acceptable process of divorce) because society says that is what you do when you don't get it or understand it or even want to, so we fall back on the old trueism! "Ain't nobody gonna make you happy but you!"
So you stand in front of the mirror as Karen and you look at her and you ask yourself how important is she to you??? Elizabeth and Virginia and a lot of our sisters out here have done it and made the decision and we continue on our "Magical Mystery Tour."
Karen good luck with yours, no it isn't easy, but no one can do this but you, so as we say in powerlifting, "Stand and Deliver!"
We are here for you darlin,
Virginia

Hi Karen,

I agree with Elizabeth, 100% percent on this issue. The only people that you will find acceptance from are those who have come from a heart knowledge (not just a head knowledge) that we all are less than perfect, that we all have something wrong with us and always will.

And that needs to work both ways: We as cross dressers need to understand and accept that others who condemn us also have that same problem.

Hi, Elizabeth,

How did I know what you would say in reply? Because, I suppose, you echo the voice of my own heart. (the one I try so hard to ignore)

You are right, I believe, when you say that deep social conditioning tells our loved ones that we are defective and should be shunned. But I suspect that this feeling may go even deeper than that. I am coming to believe that it is something wired into the brain, something instinctive, like fear of snakes or spiders. Whatever the reason, the results are the same:

we are so defective we need to be shunned, as if we no longer existed.

You are right, too, when you say

Some will feel ashamed for associating with us or for having had associated with us. SO's can not tell anyone for fear they will be shunned also, for condoning such feelings. Only the very strong, open minded and self confident are able to accept us for who and what we truely are. For so many others, the social pressure is just too much.

Imagine the shame in having one of those/us as a partner. What would it mean? Someone else posted a comment awhile ago that made a lot of sense. The woman walking down the street with her husband sends messages to the world: that she is desirable, that she is protected, and that she is unavailable. Walking down the street with one of us sends the message that none of these statements is true. And even if I am not dressed...I have never dressed in her presence...she is still hearing those imaginary voices whispering...always whispering: Poor woman, look at what she had to settle for.

I seem to cause so much pain. At times (not lately) I have even seriously considered suicide...not as a way to end my own pain, but to end hers. Of course, that wouldn't have worked, either, but it was a thought.

You say

Living your life for others will make no one happy in the end. What one can do is seek happiness. Those who live happy contented lives attract like people to their fold.

Again, you are right. I know it. Yet it is hard to tear apart a relationship that has lasted more than half our lives, even though it has always been a troubled one. How does one pursue a happiness that one cannot even imagine anymore? I remember the word, but have forgotten its meaning. Yet for all that, like the lark singing over Flanders' killing fields, I can still hear its call.

I wish I knew how to answer.

Hi Karen--
Somehow I don't feel you are in danger of giving up right now. I think you will go on expressing what you need to. So I am interested in what you notice in your wife's reaction. There is something primal in that, and I would like to know more about that, too, even though I don't deal with it directly.

My last ex-girlfriend has remained a friend, and she had agreed to meet female-side "me" on November 11th, at a performance. It now looks like that may not happen, but I wanted to see her reaction to me. She has been so strongly against the very idea up to now. In a sense, I think she looks on it as though male me has died, and this stranger has come in. This would be more understandable if I were living fulltime. But even one evening in a year is too much for her right now. She is fairly understanding, but this tests her in a way that nothing else seems to. So I would like to understand more about it.

In part Jessica_Karen wrote: Yet it is hard to tear apart a relationship that has lasted more than half our lives, even though it has always been a troubled one. I wish I knew how to answer.

Hi Karen,

Tell me just what is so appealing about a relationship that has been always been troubled? Those kind of relationships usually come to a destructive end anyway. Is it a belief that you can not be happy with out making it work? That needs to be confronted in your own mind. You need to seriously look at what is keeping you there.

Elizabeth came up with some real interesting answers when she confronted it. And without finding those answers she would not be where she is today.

Hi Jessica_Karen,

Thank you for a very thoughtful and sincere post.

Jessica_Karen wrote:Can I explain why I crossdress? No, I cannot...

Jessica_Karen wrote:...And if this is beginning to sound a bit like Tao philosophy, maybe that's not an accident. I want to experience the yin, after a lifetime of conditioning that seems to have focused entirely on the yang.

I think you're on the right track. Besides (or maybe related to) the Tao notion of yin/yang, the brain is divided between the left and right hemispheres. The left half controls language and what Jungians might call "Logos" functions. The right half is more related to intuition and nonlinguistic functions. In the Western tradition of "spiritual alchemy," these two parts of our mind/nature are called Solar and Lunar.

Culturally, and perhaps physiologically, men are more Logos/Solar dominant. I believe, as you suggest, that one main reason we CD is the intense need to experience and integrate our Lunar nature.

This cannot be understood solely at the rational level, because rational logic itself is only part of the equation. In Western alchemy, the issue (and it's potential resolution) is described in images and pictures more than words.

I have written an article, with example images, about this here:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepage ... lchemy.htm

If this view is correct, it is grounds for hope in relating to SO's. Perhaps we could better understand that the issues ISN'T to become female, it is to experience our Lunar nature. If we could separate these two issues--(1) male/female and (2) Solar/Lunar, then perhaps we could explain to SOs what we really seek. And since females usually are more comfortable with their Lunar natures, they could better empathasize and feel supportive rather than threatened.

In short, I believe that CDing, or wanting to be a woman, is mainly a symbol for the deeper urge to consciously experience our Lunar natures.

Cathy

Hi Cathy Anderson - great response as usual. I can assume that based on the placement of the "comma" in your last sentence, " In short, I believe that CDing (,) or wanting to be a woman, is mainly a symbol for the deeper urge to consciously experience our Lunar natures." That the phrase "or wanting to be a woman" is not saying that all CD'ers want to be women??? I know that I for one do not, I only want to continue to grow in the beauty of the personna, that being the love, empathy, understanding, caring, nurturing that seems to be an integral part of the female. These are the qualities that I wish to nurture and develop. Granted they could be developed without the need to dress but the dressing only seems to enhance the furthur development with in me of these characteristics. Thus for me the "dressing' is secondary to the enhancement, if you will, of my continued growth and development of these, again for me, sought after feminine characteristics.
I really look forward to reading your posts - thanks for being there for us!
Virginia

Hi girls,

This has become quite the thread. I had no idea that Cathy Anderson was the person who wrote "Jung's Anima Theory and how it relates to crossdressing". That is a mainstay in the transgendered community now. You can hardly find a site that does not have a link to it. Well done Cathy!!!!!!

Jessica_Karen wrote:
The woman walking down the street with her husband sends messages to the world: that she is desirable, that she is protected, and that she is unavailable. Walking down the street with one of us sends the message that none of these statements is true. And even if I am not dressed...I have never dressed in her presence...she is still hearing those imaginary voices whispering...always whispering: Poor woman, look at what she had to settle for.

Jessica,

There are many people who's beleif that society has so much control over them, they know what society is saying about them. I am curious though, what perception people have of me and my Raven(SO) when we are out together, which is all the time because we do almost everything together.

Even though I dress 24/7 and and society has no doubt I am a crossdresser, my SO says she feels protected, she feels especially desireable to me and feels most decidedly unavailable to others. She feels lucky to have such a caring, compassionate, nurturing mate. In fact she always jokes around that she used to tell her mom she "needed a man who thinks like a woman".

If anyone is feeling sorry for Raven(SO), they are doing so in vain, she feels sorry for those who never get the chance to know me. From her perspective they miss out, for having such closed minds. In any event, she does not feel that pressure from society or if she does, she discounts it as ignorance.

I spoke to her about her feelings on this issue before I wrote this post to make sure I was correct, so I know I am correct about her feelings.

It is our choice how we choose to let society mold us. We can say that society says this, or says that, but society is just an illusion. I mean, who is society? It is a bunch of people just like you and me, who go home to thier homes every night, eat dinner and complain about how rude everyone else is. Society is just something in our heads and we can respond to it any way we choose.

Me, Raven(SO), my children, my friends, my children's friends, all seem to be able to realize that one can just ignore what we percieve as society's judgements. That is the whole key to being "out". If someone stares are me, I stare back until they are embarassed and have to look away. It changes the entire dichotomy when we ignore society's unwritten rules.

In the end, if one uses good judgement, there is really nothing society can do you and all anyone else can do, is to not like you. My feeling on this is simple. Anyone who does not like me, or someone who accepts me how I am, just because of what I am, is probably not the kind of person I want to call a friend anyway. Anyone else? Well, their feelings come first, right after mine.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Hi Virginia,

Virginia wrote:I can assume that based on the placement of the "comma" in your last sentence, " In short, I believe that CDing (,) or wanting to be a woman, is mainly a symbol for the deeper urge to consciously experience our Lunar natures." That the phrase "or wanting to be a woman" is not saying that all CD'ers want to be women???

Right. I see these as, in principle, two different things, though obviously the often coincide.

I should add that I accept there may be a distinction between "true" transsexualism--a kind of inter-sexuality in which a person, though appearing outwardly male, already *is* female (e.g., has a female brain), from the situation where a person's nature is male, but they *desire* to be female. I was referring to the second case.

Cheers,

Cathy

Oh geez. I hurt for ya'll so much. I think I can understand the feelings you have - an ex-husband turned away when I gained weight and rejected me as unappealing...

I can't speak for any of the other women, or for your SOs. I can say for myself that I don't find my sweetie to be defective or disgusting because he dresses. I can also say that I don't particularly enjoy his dressing, but I'm terribly aware that this is *my* own conditioning, *my* fault, not his. If ya'll haven't figured out, the main reason I belong to this forum is to rid myself of that conditioning by listening to ya'll - I will not allow that early conditioning to affect our relationship. *He* is doing nothing wrong.

Someone back there said that maybe gg's reactions are hard-wired. That's entirely possible. Anthropologists will tell you that we are all driven by the major forces of food, shelter, water, reproduction, etc. Maybe that's where it's all tripping up - that with you dressed as a woman, it triggers some sort of reproductive-thought flux that we aren't even aware of. Even if we know you are straight, even if we have gay friends who don't threaten us (they aren't our partners, after all), even if we had our tubes tied long ago and don't want to get pregnant again. God knows, gut reactions aren't logical. In fact, anthropologists and biologists will tell you that the main trigger for that chemical response that we call attraction is based upon some instinct that your genes will mix well with my genes to create a good child. All this is at some super-sub-conscious level, and I have no doubt that seeing my lover in a skirt scrambles some of those deep sub-surface thoughts.

I am afraid that I am probably as guilty of closing my eyes, physically drawing back from my sweetie as Jessica-Karen's SO. And I try to hide it, just as she does, for my sweetie's sake. I fear I am no less successful at it than she is. And my reaction bothers me more than his being dressed does. I fear that I am being horribly superficial and that bothers me. A lot. OTOH, I *am* trying because I *do* love him...That's gotta count for something in making him *feel* loved.

I can say for myself that my reaction is not based upon a sense that there is something wrong with him, or that he is disgusting or deviated or anything like that. It's a combination of not quite knowing how to relate to him when he's wearing lipstick (I don't know why I don't know how to relate to him when he looks significantly different, but think about whether you would be able to relate to your lady if she came in with her hair suddenly cut short, or with it a totally different color, or with any other radical visual change...), and not quite knowing what to expect next. Not that I think he's going to transition or anything big like that. It's just this new situation that leaves me slightly uneasy. And yes, it's new everytime. Because even if he thinks about dressing all the time, I only really think about it when he *does* dress...

And part of it, I think, is that as you experience my yin, there is nothing in me to experience your yang. (I hope I got this right - I always get mixed up on which is which...) My sweetie *is* my yang - it is his maleness that complements my femaleness. When he comes over to the female side, well, there's this lack of ... uh... balance in the room. I don't know if this is of any help. I'm certainly not arguing with you about how you feel - any of you. I know it hurt a great deal to be rejected for the simple fact that I'd gained weight. I was still very much the same person - just heavier. I would assume that it is within the same realm of hurt - why would you love me when I was 105 lbs. and not at 165 lbs?

I wish I knew what to say that would suddenly make this all easier for everyone. My brain says it shouldn't be hard. But it is sometimes. I'm truly sorry that you are all hurting so much. I wish I had the answers...

-g(so)

Hi Georgia(SO),

Thanks for your post. You raise several good points:

Georgia wrote:Someone back there said that maybe gg's reactions are hard-wired. That's entirely possible. Anthropologists will tell you that we are all driven by the major forces of food, shelter, water, reproduction, etc. Maybe that's where it's all tripping up - that with you dressed as a woman...

Could be. On the other hand, evolution would favor a response based on the reality, not imagined fears. If a man dresses like a woman but still "brings home the bacon" and is still faithful, it would be in a woman's 'survival interests' to stick with him. So I think the issue is more social conditioning--women are taught that feminine men are a liability. In either case, your doubtless right--the response is unconscious. Which means that, in theory, with conscious intervention (e.g., counseling, communication, trust-building) it can be changed.

Georgia wrote:...not quite knowing how to relate to him when he's wearing lipstick...think about whether you would be able to relate to your lady if she came in with her hair suddenly cut short

Excellent observation. If I had a gf who wanted to crossdress, I guess I'd find it easier to handle if she made it clear it was just a once-in-a-while thing.

Georgia wrote:And part of it, I think, is that as you experience my yin, there is nothing in me to experience your yang. (I hope I got this right - I always get mixed up on which is which...) My sweetie *is* my yang - it is his maleness that complements my femaleness.

This, at least according to Jungian psychology, is *exactly* the problem. Women, just like men, have both yin and yang. It is a psychological time bomb if a woman experiences her yang only by projecting it onto a man. Eventually she will (1) be disappointed in her mate, who is, in fact, *not* her inner ideal of maleness; and (2) more importantly, the woman will fail to develop fully at the psychological level. She will face the world as only half the person she was meant to be.

Georgia wrote:When he comes over to the female side, well, there's this lack of ... uh... balance in the room.

That's a very good way of putting it.

Georgia wrote:I would assume that it is within the same realm of hurt - why would you love me when I was 105 lbs. and not at 165 lbs?

Because the male projects his inner femaleness onto the woman, and when her behavior or appearance does not correspond to his projection, he places his projection elsewhere and becomes interested in that. As Virginia so aptly notes, we are evolving. And a big need is for men and women to evolve a more genuine way of relating--one not based on projections.

Cheers,

Cathy

Hi Georgia.
I love your line about "balance in the room." I think that that is what we all seek, a balance in our lives!!! Crosssdressers are surely seeking that balance between their feminine side and their male person. Dr. Anderson defines three stages that are there, not all of us want or need to avail ourselves of all three. Some are content just to be in the first stage others evolve knowing or in some cases unknowningly in to the second state. What little I understand about the third stage is that you have to make a very conscious decision to enter the third stage - that being finding, having, controlling that balance you speak of. Then (my words) learning to share the beauty that comes with "evloving" into the greater whole! Having both the Yin and the Yang of female and male, knowing it, feeling it, revelling in it and then sharing it! That is the evolution. For me, yes I dress, but it is not a necessity, it is secondary to the manifestition of the emergence of Virginia and the feminine characteristics that she bestows on me, love, empathy, caring, listening, touching, gentleness. Those traits that crossdresser find most desirable in females and that we try to emulate and hopefully evolve to share with others in our day to day constructs!
My main struggle is that I can sense that just below the surface of all the feminine characters that I try so hard to use and make available there exists a a (hard to describe - let me just say - a monster), that no one would want to have to face. I know that it would protect Virginia to the death. I also know it has come out in almost full furry a couple of times in my life and those unfortunate people who had to deal with it I know would not want to fact that demon again.That is my consern, my struggle. I don't think it will ever go away and I don't know that I would want it to as it is a part of my Yin and Yang. So I guess my balance, my struggle to evolution will be very diverse, between the beauty that Virginia affords me and the secret of knowing that this monster dwells with in me as well.
Seek balance, girls!
Virginia

Thanks Cathy and Virginia for your answers.

I need to clarify something. When I said that my sweetie *is* my yang, I didn't mean that quite as literally as it sounded. How do I explain this? I don't need him to complete me. I am complete, in and of myself. But it is the balance of his maleness and my femaleness that ... uh... makes me feel womanly. Otherwise, I feel like a *person*. For me, and possibly only for me, the *woman* is as opposed to the *man* ... and a man is a man as opposed to a woman. Otherwise, we're all just people. I don't know that I'm projecting my maleness onto him... it's sorta like wanting something salty when I eat sweet stuff. (OK. I'm a sucker for eating potato chips at the same time I have vanilla ice cream - not mixed together - just eaten at the same time). The two sensations bounce off each other in a way that makes each one better - although they are quite good individually.

I never quite got into Jung, (stopped with Freud, I'm afraid...). Anyway, thanks for your thoughts...

-g(so)