Crossdressers-Haven.com

The title of this thread came from an insightful post by a wife referencing the revelation that her husband was a crossdresser.

I thought about how men have been lied to. That to wear certain clothing, make up, express certain emotions, etc. are not "manly". (Clothing is clothing and functions to protect the body from the elements, cover those parts that are less presentable, and provide comfort.)

That somehow, to experience pampering, express feelings, or emotions, was not becomming of a man. After all, men don't cry! (Maybe this changed a bit after the events of September 11th.)

Men have been lied to for years and many of us have had to overcome this abuse of who we are only to have to deal with the cry of, "I've been lied to" by our wifes. These same wifes were attracted to us because of the deep caring feelings that are part of our being. We are the ones who carry all the baggage of trying to fit the false image of what people say that we men should be.

Perhaps the wifes have been lied to - then again - men have been lied to about what we should be. After all, shouldn't we be the people whom we are?

It's late, I'm tired, I hope some of this post makes sense.

CE

HI Carol,

Needless to say there are those of our sisters who are much more articulate than I and I am sure they will wish to reply as well. That being said, and I have to agree with where you are coming from with the exception that I don't think lying is the operative word, more like "evolved" to our current place. We could write a rather lengthy book to address some of the things you reference. Take for account, actual clothing. It is a physical fact that in general (don't get me started on current physical appearances ), but generally, men are larger in stature than women and women have the "cat-walk" and yes I know men also but to a much lesser degree. Thus through societal evolution and the "designers", "society" accepts what is generally regarded as clothing for women and clothing for men. We do note that as of late some designers have probed the androgynous places and things like handbags for me, so would, say, "alternative briefcases!"

As for emotions, it is (to the best of my knowledge) been scientifically established that male and female brains are "wired" different. Now science is also, slowly, very slowly coming to grips with the "facts" that all is not black and white, i.e., WE BEGIN TO BE RECOGNZED AS EXISTING! Gays, lesbians, TG, TS, Crossdressers. One of the big questions raised in the scientific community is why would someone, who is willing to work as hard as is necessary to become a doctor/surgeon, then want to become someone of the opposite sex? When and where during their existence did all that transpire? Lied to? Whom did they lie to? Themselves, society, their family, their colleagues, their patients. When did they know?

I kind of like Neil Bortz's approach. He says that when gays/lesbians get asked "at what point in their lives did they "become" gay/lesbian," he says that the question should be turned around and asked, "at what specific point in your life did you know/become heterosexual?" Of course, the answer is always, well I was born heterosexual --------- well hello!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I won't even begin to touch on what attracts a female to a male. I will site the old adage, "he chases her until she catches him!"

All this, to me, takes me back to my theory, that we, and again, this is NO REFLECTION ON ANYONE WHO IS NOT WHERE I AM OR ANYONE ELSE IS ON THE "CROSSDRESSER'S CONTINUUM." But we may be the next stage in human evolution. As I have said many, many times in defense of this "theory" it is not going to happen over night. It is not a physical thing in the evolutionary process, it is the merging of the thought process, the emotional merging of two different human processes into one individual. That person who can see and react to any situation from both a "male" and a "female" perception.

I do have to briefly address the "lying" aspect to our spouses, in general. As has been noted on this forum we have evidently the entire spectrum of relationships expressed here. From those who are still hiding "it" from everyone but themselves and getting away with it to those who have "come out" from day one and told from spouse to any and everyone and lived with the consequences, some good, some bad. I firmly believe that this forum has saved several marriages and it has destroyed some. Which in some aspects takes us to what I refer to as "Virginia's Challenge" where you get into "hot water" so to speak. You dress that woman up, stand in front of that full length mirror, look her deep in the eyes and ask the questions, "What is she worth to me and what am I willing to give up for her existence?" To do this with all your heart, you cannot lie to yourself. Granted, this is usually the last effort on your part to find balance in your life and the resultant answer, if done with all sincerity will probably affect the rest of your life. Some of us have had to "go for it" and this girl has been more than satisfied with her response (sorry, don't mean to editorialize), but in my own words, I love Virginia, she loves me and we will continue to enjoy our "Magical Mystery Tour!"

Now my brain hurts!

I love you all,

Virginia

The world lied to me as a child, telling me I could be anything I wanted when I grew up. Then when adolescence and puberty hit, I wasn't allowed to be who I wanted. I had to be who everyone around me expected. I've had to lie to the entire world since I was seven years old, and I finally got sick and tired of it in my mid-30's. Now I've found out my wife was lying when she accepted Kathy in her boyfriend, but wouldn't have it in her husband.

Everyone lies to themselves, to some degree or another. It's when they believe their own lies they get in trouble. Subliminating and denying Kathy brought me years of depression and alcoholism. Freeing her brought me a great deal of peace. Having to hide her again isn't something I'm liking very much, because it's a lie I don't want to live.

I've been in the mood to recommend books lately, so I'll pass along another good one I read several years ago: Stiffed by Susan Faludi. Faludi describes how many minority groups have fought for recognition and respect in America's history: women's suffrage, blacks and civil rights, feminism, gays and lesbians. Seems like a whole bunch of people have been liberated from the oppressive roles placed upon them by historical society. Well, a whole bunch with one glaring exception: men in general. We haven't been allowed to expand our range of being (with the recent possible exception of metrosexualism, which I believe to be more about corporate product marketing than male liberation) while everyone else has fought for and achieved significant recognition.

Please sign me up for 'men's liberation', under the sub-topic "prefers being shapely, feminine, and attractive".

"You can tell the truth all your life, but one good lie will atone for it all."
Mark Twain

Hugs (and that's the truth)

Lydia

Yes we've been lied to and misled, in more ways than I can count.

So has everyone else. Part of growing up is sorting it all out and figuring out what the truth is. Sometimes the closest I cam come to the truth is to say that I don't know what it is.

Sometimes the truth is best expressed without words. An act of kindness. Or in another language. When Carlos Santana or BB King play the guitar they tell the truth. No words are needed.



Absaroka

Girls are pretty. Boys are handsome. That's what I've heard all of my life but it never made any sense to me, even as a young child. I don't think that I've ever been comfortable with feeling "handsome" but I wasn't allowed to feel "pretty".
Too late. I liked feeling pretty since I knew what it was. I was also told that somehow it was wrong, a cause for shame and guilt. "Real" men don't ever think like that.
Now that I'm a "couple of years" older I find that I don't care what I was told about how I should or shouldn't feel. I feel it. Not anyone else. They are my feelings and emotions and after a lifetime of trying to hide the ones I was told I wasn't supposed to have I'm tired of trying. I know who and what I am better now than I ever did and I also know that it's entirely up to me to make me happy with my life choices. (Thank God for a good therapist). I'm comfortable in my own skin now no matter what it's draped in, although satin is nicer.

Lisbeth

What are little girls made of ?

Sugar and spice and all things nice

What are little boys made of ?

.....etc etc.

Yes the bulls*** started early in life didn't it .

Like anything in a relationship, this is a complicated issue that isn't as simple as "I was lied to, too."

I think the biggest difference is the nature of the deception. The idea that we've been misled by society is not as direct, nor as personal as being deceived by a loved one. If anything, we grow to expect deception from society and often look to our SO as the one person we can count on for honesty.

So yes, I understand the hurt of being deceived. At the same time, though, I think most people appreciate that the level on honesty in a good relationship took a lot of work and involved learning to remove the layers of masks we wear when interacting with the rest of society. Being utterly honest about everything on the first date would be a guarantee of never getting a second date, so there's an unspoken set of rules about when you have to be honest about what.

So if the rules are unspoken, how are we supposed to know what they are? Are all the secrets supposed to be on the table before we propose? Or before the ceremony? The fifth anniversary? In practice, I think the answer is "be as honest as you can as early as you can" and help each other feel comfortable with increasing levels of honesty over time.

The CDer's secret is a big one but that can work both ways. It's tough to hear and understand, but it can also strengthen a relationship if you can help your SO understand what it means to trust them with something so scary for you.

Perhaps the biggest lie is that some of us are somehow "less than" others. Or that who I am is somehow unacceptable.

The whole "I love you, you can be who you really are/but still please be who I want you to be" is a myriad of if not lies, then wishful thinking. And I've perpetrated it on others every bit as much as I've had it done to me.

Absaroka

Hi all,

Carol Elizabeth,

In the sense you use the expression "lied to" when referring to the socialization process that boys go through, I have to point out that girls go through the very same process and are thus also being "lied to" about what it means for us to be boys (or men). As Merinda said, the "sugar-and-spice-and-everything-nice-and-snips-and-snails-and-puppy-dog-tails" crap starts very early for children of both sexes.

Maybe the lies you talk about are more related to subtle brainwashing than they are to outright dishonesty. And, again, that brainwashing is done to everyone, girls included. That's what it means to grow up in a world that has certain traditional expectations where gender roles are concerned.

It seems to me that we can lie only if we know that what we are saying is not the (factual) truth. Well, that boys (and men) can only behave in certain specific ways is something that, unfortunately, millions of people accept as true--unreflexively--and quite independently of all evidence to the contrary. Of course, the same applies to girls and women. When someone--an aunt, a teacher, a schoolmate, say--or something--a poem, a nursery rhyme, an animation film, a grade school text, for example--says to us that this is how things are (sugar and spice, etc.), they're really saying that this is how things have usually been in the past and that these things seem to work and that they should therefore continue to be promulgated. But they're not the "truth" (in the sense where truth is a belief or worldview that conforms to reality, with evidence supplied); the truth is that human beings have exhibited both gender-appropriate and gender-inappropriate behaviours since the dawn of history and will likely continue to do so far into the future. This is a "truth," by the way, that is only now starting to come to the fore in the way boys and girls are socialized. People who tell you that it's okay for girls to cry but not okay for boys truly believe that this is the case. They never question their belief regarding this. To them, it's simply an evident truth, based partly on their knowledge of human psychology and partly on their knowledge of social history. Can we then really say that such people are lying to us? I don't think so. I doubt it, anyway. They may be self-deluded or lying to themselves, but it's always up to each of us, as individuals, to determine the shape of our own "gendered" existence, regardless of folk wisdom and pop psychology.

I've met too many girls and women in my life who were made of snips and snails and puppy dog tails to consider true the converse proposition that boys must not cry. Still, it doesn't mean I think I've been lied to... no, it's rather the case that I've come to see what "gender truth" could mean to me. And that's something we each must seek out on our own.

Love,
CJ

"girls go through the very same process and are thus also being "lied to" about what it means for us to be boys (or men)."

They are also lied to about what it means to be female.

I am beginning to believe that we as a society have wasted a lot of potential because of what we demand of male and female members of society. That they must fit a certain mold - be a certain way - or we are classified as less valuable, expendable, undesireable, etc.

So the questions becomes, will people if "wake up and smell the coffee"? Will people ever be accepted for who they are and not discriminated against simply because they are different from what society has declared the norm?

CE

I would like to think that someday society will grow enough to be able to accept everyone as they are.I dont imagine I will be around to see it though.On the other hand people have come a long way in accepting others.I seem to remember when crossdressing was illegal,although I could be wrong about that.In my life there is one person who does accept me as I am(a GG),and another who is trying(a family member).This is more than I ever hoped for while growing up.I guess "baby steps"applies to society just as it would an SO.