Crossdressers-Haven.com

Hi girls!! I’m desperately in need of some advice from those of you who might have expertise or experience in the area of coming out to your SO. I’ve read so many of your wonderful postings and advice, and have also read My Husband Betty, which contains some really great insights into how to handle this as well as possible…. But my situation is a bit complicated and touchy. Please help me out, if you can, and especially if you have dealt with a situation similar to mine. Sorry for the length of the post, but I think the background is necessary.

My SO and I have been fairly rocky for a couple of years, and Very rocky the last 6 months or so. We've been best friends for 20 years and engaged for the last 8 (don’t ask, long story), but have been borderline broken up for the last 6 months, and not very good friends for even longer. One of our biggest problems is that she lacks the ability to discuss her feelings, and instead bottles things up until she bursts (which happens far too often.) She has quite a volatile temper due to this, and can be very intolerant of even the simplest things at times. She doesn’t often forgive people, and almost never apologizes when she hurts others, as she doesn’t seem to be able to admit that she has done so. However, she can also be the most loving and caring person I know. It’s like opposite extremes with her. I’m certainly not saying that I haven’t hurt her at times, nor that I am perfect nor innocent of any contribution to our relationship issues – however, I will say that I am constantly trying to talk to her and resolve things and work on our problems, and she just tries to brush them under the rug (in our last argument, after I spilled my heart to her about why I was still with her despite how miserable we are, I asked her the same question – her answer was, “I though love would be enough.”). This is why we have gotten to the point we are at - lack of communication, and not seeking help (couple’s counseling). At the moment, for about the last week, we have been doing ok, but only because I pretty much laid it out for her, and told her she needed to start communicating or there was no way we had any chance of making it. Once she started talking, I got quite an earful. She was upset about things I had no clue were upsetting her. I think it was the best conversation we’ve had in years.

She has become very depressed over the last several months, due to life throwing her/us some serious curve balls over the last few years (work, weight, friends, ex-husband, kids issues, etc) and the issues with our relationship, and since she refuses to talk to anyone about anything, her angst has been building and building. Most of our teenage children don’t even like being around her because she can be very mean to them, especially when they make decisions she doesn’t approve of (boyfriends, etc.) - and she doesn’t let up once she gets her teeth in. She has finally recognized that she is in dire need of help (this was a Big step for her, as she does not like to admit weakness, and does not believe in counseling.) She is starting counseling today, and has started an anti-depressant. As awful as this may make her sound, she is also a very strong and loving woman. I am looking for a good couple’s counselor for us to see also. I love her very deeply, and do not want to lose her, if possible. We have built a good life together, despite how extremely rocky it is, and I had planned on spending the rest of my life with her.

My SO is very aware of my cross-dressing tendencies, but has mostly stayed in a denial state. I have gotten away with little things (mostly toenail painting), but have never even gotten fully dressed (and not even close with her around). Over the years I have gotten away with things that can be passed off as teasing or playing, but deep down I believe she knows it’s more. My oldest daughter is very aware of my tendencies, and in fact gave me a pair of red heels for my last birthday (she is extremely supportive!) – my SO was not in the least bit happy about it. I have been putting feminine clothes on my Xmas and birthday lists for a couple of years now, and she always snaps at me with a “What’s this on here for?” remark. We have not had "the talk", so she doesn't really now how deep the feelings go for me, and in fact I don't yet either. The one time I approached the subject (about 2 months ago) she made it very clear that she wasn't happy about it. She said “If you’re expecting me to be happy that I’m engaged to a cross dresser, think again. If I wanted to date a girl, I’d be a lesbian.” This pretty much put an end to the conversation. I have also been noticing how intolerant she seems to be (privately, to me) towards anyone we see that is outside the norm at all. She has taken to (very hurtfully) insisting that I am gay, and asking when I am going to admit it. However, she also at times playfully calls me a woman, and admits openly that I am more of a woman than she is.

Unfortunately, I have been repressing my TG feelings for about 25 years. By that I mean that the tendencies have been there, but I have been ignoring them as best as possible, and have definitely been avoiding looking at what they might mean, refusing to look at them any further than as periodically wanting to look pretty in some fashion. I have been able to shelve them for about a year at a time- until about a year ago. Finally something snapped inside me - I am unable to lock it away again. The feelings have become very overwhelming, and I'm looking for a good therapist to help me sort them out. It’s only been the last couple of months though that I’ve started really looking at this part of me, despite the feelings being so overwhelming for several months longer than that. I had often wondered why I couldn’t remember major portions of my childhood… it turns out that repressing these feelings seems to have been blocking my childhood memories also. Things have been coming back to me little by little – it is constantly surprising me remember things and discover how strong these feelings have been all of my life, and how I refused to admit that they were there. This is not just cross dressing for me. I do not get a sexual payoff from it. It runs far deeper than that for me. I even now remember an incident in college where I was introduced to the concept of sex changes for the first time during a human sexuality class. I can honestly tell you that if I had not been repressing my feelings as strongly as I was, I would have at the very least moved down that road, if not gone the whole way. I spent about a week in a state of flux, fighting the repression and denial before it finally won out. Now… years later… the drive is still there, but there is so much to lose… I just don’t know anymore. Thus, why I think I need to see someone.

Now that I am consciously recognizing these feelings, I feel that she needs to know, and to know how strong it runs, especially since we are having other problems and are trying to work things out between us. I mean, I don’t see the point in working as hard as we will have to, to repair our relationship and be happy and in love again, only to turn around and tell her this, and have her run screaming. Not to mention that she will feel betrayed and lied to if I wait. She “knows” already, but doesn’t want to admit it. She also knows that I’m not telling her something, although I am able to blow it off as stress most of the time. However, lately, I’ve been getting pretty depressed, between learning to come to terms with these feelings and the problems with my SO. I need to explore it more also, and can’t with her in denial. Plus, the need to take baby-steps requires a starting point to do so…

My question is one of timing... I feel like I need to tell her NOW, rather than postponing. I’m scared to death of losing her, but I know it has to be done. I've actually been trying to do it for a couple of weeks, but her state of mind has not been conducive, and I didn't feel she could handle the extra hit (in fact, she said that at one point.) With her starting counseling today, I'm a bit more comfortable telling her about this, but I also don't want to distract her sessions away from the personal issues she needs to address. I also am very concerned about her mental health, and don’t want to add to her stress right now. I don’t believe that my dressing is one of the major issues she is in need of talking about (yet), but I could be wrong there, also. I also don't want to postpone telling her and a) keep lying to her and b) continue my depressive decline and c) potentially end up with large purchases (car, cell phone contract, etc) that she is pushing for, if she takes it poorly and decides she can't live with who I truly am - which is unfortunately a very real possibility. As I mentioned, she pushes our problems under the rug – so a day after her being half-way out the door, she can be discussing buying a new car and getting married, while I’m reeling from the pain of her throwing up her hands at our relationship. I’m not in the least bit afraid of commitment, and am fully committed to my SO!!!!, but having been divorced twice, I’m also a bit realistic about my odds here.

So, what I’m looking for, is advice on when I should tell her, how I should tell her, and anything else. Please know that I have the utmost love and respect for her, despite how this may have read (I obviously couldn't tell all, due to length - I tried to limit it to the important information). I love her very much, and am very concerned for her, and for us. I recognize that she is only part of the problems with our relationship, but at the moment her personal issues are overshadowing all else. I also know that Rebecca is not going anywhere. She is here, and proud of it, and screaming to be let out. I’m very open to compromise with my SO, and baby steps, but I can’t put this away again. Believe me, I tried a few months ago, and gave myself a ripping case of depression and near migraine headaches.

Also, if any of you have an opinion on whether I should see a therapist, please chime in. I’ve read pros and cons on this and other sites. Personally, I feel I should, but I don’t want any permanent labels put into my records that can cause issues for me later…

Thanks in advance (and a special thanks to SilverLady). Your input means the world to me.

Rebecca Liz wrote:... One of our biggest problems is that she lacks the ability to discuss her feelings, and instead bottles things up until she bursts..

She is starting counseling today, and has started an anti-depressant.

Rebecca, your wife holding things in and suddenly coming out in a burst was and still is me. The thing is I really did not know I was holding things in as I would just file them until they all later came flowing out. I have gotten much better. As for counseling, this IMHO, getting a professional involved is the best thing you could do, IF, if it is the right person for her that she can relate to and feel comfortable with. If she can not relate to this person find a different one and a different one if needed until she finds one that she can relate to and feel comfortable with. A good professional will tell you the same thing. As for counseling for yourself, it could also do you some good to have a third party to talk to. And again you must be able to relate and and feel comfortable with the professional. If you are not comfortable with the professional you are working with you will not open up to them. Any type of counseling is a two way street. Their job is to get you to open up and look at what you are struggling with and give you some guidance. But most of the answers should come from within you, not from the counselor.

Personally my wife and I have had ours, hers, mine and ours counselors. My wife insisted on Christian based counselors so I knew I was in for an up hill challenge. The first one we seen together was a major flop for us together. Crossdressing was wrong and the bible was against it. But my wife of course could relate to him and he did help her with some personal issues. But that counselor was also a year of hell for me as I kept asking for him to point out where in the Bible it said this. A little over a year later, he said that I misunderstood him and it was society that was against it. Sorry but I did not misunderstand the direct question from my wife "Was the Bible against the crossdressing?", to which he said "Yes". When my wife finally told me this answer from him was I misunderstood him, she knew I did not. She asked it. And I did not rub it in even though you could see she was waiting for it. But I digressed. I had my counselor who learned a lot from me on crossdressing as we worked through other personal issues.

But in the end run the best thing we got out of counseling was how to communicate better as a couple.

But one of the best things we did is we had a couples discussion at home, or some times on the way home, after every profession session we had. We call them our sessions after the session. And they would last from a few minutes to a a few hours. But usually about an hour.

The other best thing we did is we both started keeping journals and kept them with us. Any thoughts, comments, what was bothering us, how we felt, what we wanted to talk about to each other and/or counselors, and anything related. Especially for me, it allowed me to write down exactly my feelings or thoughts at the time and not loose them before talking to my wife or counselor/s.

And one more final thing, of the many things, that helped us really start learning to communicate is we also had other home discussion sessions that we scheduled a time for and often presented the topic to the other partner to think about it ahead of time. And then the discussion was limited to that topic. ONLY to that topic. This allowed us to keep a narrow focus and work just on that one issue and keep related issues out of the discussion. This helped us to have calmer and more productive discussions and actually get something done. Additional discussion was only added on if we were done with the first discussion, we were both ready to discuss the next topic, and we still had sufficient time to discuss it. We learned a very minimum of an hour was needed to start a discussion and preferably more.

Good Luck, and you can PM me if you want.

kimberlys
joe in a skirt

First off, I would like to say that in the area of marriage counseling there is no substitute for professional help. Counseling couples is an emotional minefield, and it not for the weak or untrained. Really, if you would not go to you next door neighbor or a friend for open heart surgery, I don't think you should go the amateur route on this either. Not to mention that I know of no time that I - or anyone I know - got the middle of someone else's relationship issues and maintained the friendships (or even did any real good).

The taxonomy of any intimate interpersonal relationship is not appropriate for any public forum. There are all sorts of factors that we don't know about your situation and your wife's' situation. Things we can't know, but things that a councilor must know. Financial factors, childhood factors, family factors, religion, socioeconomic status, personal psychological reasons. In not knowing any of that - much less all of that, which any good councillor would make it their business to know first. In particular, in any internet forum we are only getting one side of the story, and a trained councilor is going to get both. Moreover, there are obviously a lot of underlying issues, and they are trained to find and evaluate those. None of us are.

This board is more than likely not the best spot to do such things. Its good for tips for CDs, a place to tell of our small victories, to talk about clothes, movies and other trivial amusements, and a place to share our little trips out and about. As such, it tends to be a poor place for marriage therapy - particularly when its so one sided. Heck, any public forum is a bad place for it no matter if its CD board or a Rod and Gun board. If for not other notion than rational and reasonable people do not put this kind of interpersonal out in public, that's why such sessions with therapists, priests, ministers and the like are always confidential. Having said that, find someone you can trust and work with them.

Also, as part of the process, have your wife get a complete physical. Sometimes a lot of this is organic (chemical) and not mental, and so requires a different sort of cure. Some of her behavior sounds like it could be of that sort but only a professional can find out for sure.

That being said, I will comment on the things that I feel I have enough knowledge to comment on.

First of all, none of that made her sound bad. People respond differently to situations and issues in their lives, and there may well be perfect people in the world, but I sure have not meet them, and I don't see one looking back at me in the mirror either.

I do know that repressed feelings (of CD, or of anger) and that bottling things up is the human emotional equivalent of highly volatile gas under pressure. And if you put enough pressure on it, it will explode. So too with people. And often it happens at a bad time (like there is a good time for any of this) or when we are under pressure ourselves. That genii is very hard to put back in the bottle once it gets out.

Most of our teenage children don’t even like being around her because she can be very mean to them, especially when they make decisions she doesn’t approve of (boyfriends, etc.) - and she doesn’t let up once she gets her teeth in.
>>> This is a bad situation. Teenagers are in the process of making decisions that will last them a long time. To lose them at that age might take decades and decades to get back, if you ever can. While its hard not to get involved in the kids love life, its also an impossible argument to win. Its all too easy to see your kids potentially making mistakes, but they don't see it. Young love is powerful and it is no place for an adult to be interfering in it. With luck, their teenage romances will turn out like ours did - pleasant memories and nothing more. But don't let their falling in love with someone else push you out of their life. Its not a good time, nor a good issue, to force them to choose. It seems a shame to push your kids away from you just as they are getting to be interesting persons in their own right.

As for the telling her. I'm a big advocate of truth, mostly because I'm lazy, and I don't feel inclined to take the time to lie, or to have to be bothered to have to remember what I said. But, I've been out to almost everyone I know since I was in high school, and that makes a huge difference. Its one of the things that people often know about me before they even meet me. So that makes it very easy. Particularly when those who don't like it avoid me once they know. (Which is also a lazy way out, I let people sort of self-select themselves for my life, that way I don't have to bother with the initial screening process.) But, that is my life, in a time (the late 60s and early 70s) and a place (SF and Sonoma County) and with people (countercultural/academic types) where I had the freedom/space/ability to do that. I realize that not everyone had that opportunity.

The other thing - the key thing really I think - about being out that long is I have a pretty good fit for TG in my life as a whole. I'm in a position to be able to make the compromises, because I understand what I can, and can not (or will not) change or modify. And because I out so much, so young, I got a lot of stuff out of my system if in a 'been there, done that' mode if nothing else, or its just a matter of things being in the past - no matter how much I might want to, I can't get all dressed up in my hippie stuff and go dancing and twirling to Jerry fronting the Grateful Dead, time it was and all that, but its long gone now.

Now, on a day to day basis, its not all that big a deal (I don't think). I always wear lingerie, tights in the winter. I shave my legs, and have for years, I keep them very tan and no one seems to notice. I wear skirts during the day, and often out, but I wear them with T-shirts, hoodie sweatshirts and the like. What makeup I wear is very light, not easy to notice, and works to make me seem younger, rather than more fem. I go out every few weeks or so, go to a fav restaurant and go out dancing, go to the opera and ballet a few times a year, and that tends to be enough for me now.

Do you know that about your life? Can you say what it is you want, need, require? Where its going? How much is going to be enough? If you have repressed a lot of stuff then I would suggest that you don't know how much is enough, where you can and will draw that very fine line.

The other problem with repression is that the first rule of such interpersonal encounters with others is that you have to know yourself first, and I'm not sure you do. You have to be able to be clear on what CD means to your life, how it fits in, what it means to her, how much, how little - all that stuff. 25 years is a lot of stuff to repress. Who knows how much is really in there?

You speak of fighting the knowledge of the TS sex change deal back when you were in college. I had the luxury of being able to work that out then, (I decided against it for several reasons, all of which were valid in the 1970s, but no longer in 2007, so if I was 22 again, perhaps I would reach a different conclusion) and in that working through it, there is a measure of peace. I never had to think (very hard at least) about "What If." I made that choice then with knowledge, a close friend or two, and full consent of my will.

But having thought through that - and explained my thinking several times over the years - I find it easy to lay it out for other people now. I can explain it to others, because I worked to understand it myself. I'm very comfortable in discussing it with people because I know my heart and my mind. And because its a conversation I've had many times now. If you don't know that, its a whole different discussion to be sure.

A lot of times things repressed and then bursting out and being overwhelming are just things that need to be worked out. Lots of stuff is going through your mind, and as we know, reality does not always measure up to our fantasies. I was really interested in skydiving once, so a friend of mine (Lt. Col, U.S.A., ret.) took me for a jump. I resolved about halfway down that I would never jump out of a perfectly functioning airplane again. Something like that. So, perhaps, you really want to dress up to the nines and do a night on the town, could be that having done that once or twice it will prove enough, it will satisfy your curiosity on the matter. Of course, that might not make her happy - I've read enough posts over the years to know that stepping out of the house is a huge threshold to cross and one that many people draw the line at. Still, I hope you see my point that doing some things sometimes gets them out of your system.

Then again, you might follow my pattern and wind up having doormen/bouncers at several clubs and such know you well enough to call you by your name and look happy to see you. That's the risk. Once I found out that I could go out, I never went back

I'm not a big fan of baby steps. I think that baby steps is often the exact wrong approach. The emotional Chinese Water Torture for the person getting baby stepped on. Far too often it becomes a never ending story, and the poor other person is just waiting for "what's next" and there always seems to be a next - again I've read enough posts on this to think that I'm pretty much right on this. It's best to be able to lay out the entire deal, in whole cloth from the start. However, you need to know that for yourself first, before you can lay it out for others.

But I would guess, sooner rather than later. She knows, and I know its pretty easy to find a space between people that this can fit in - if nothing else the don't ask, don't tell deal. I know several CDs who live that life, and as long as they have a little space, they seem OK with it. She seems to be swinging back and forth, between teasing (which can be OK, I get a lot of it, not a big deal) and being mean and hostile - which is not good ever.

CD is not necessarily about sex. It can be, but for most of my CD pals and me its not. In the entire range, of TG (or gender variance as I prefer) none of this is to one person what it is to others. You have to find out what part of your life it really is, how deep it runs, what manifestations it takes on. Its a huge range from wearing panties under your suit, to living 24/7, and there are lots, and lots of eddies, bayous, tributaries, oxbow lakes and such between those two points on the river. What is right for one person is not for another - despite the people who want to cookie-cutter TG people like they do everyone else in their life. And, even though I know it upsets people (I will spare the joke, but not the truth) that it changes over time, both in style as well as in substance. Like that river, its moving, and like all moving things, you either get out in front of them or get overwhelmed by them.

Find a councilor that specialized in gender issues. There is not a lot of things that go on record in fact, most is privileged. If its not a big deal, then pay for it out of pocket, and that lessens the number of people who might find out (i.e. insurance companies).

I'd have to agree strongly with Tekla and Kimberly about most of what they said. Especially the idea that you need assistance of a far more personal nature than is possible on the internet.

I can't talk much about how to tell an SO this since I haven't done a very good job of it.

I do agree that it would be best to get this out before the marriage, especially if this is more than just a sexual outlet and you really are somewhat transgendered.

One thing really struck me like a ton of bricks. You say the relationship has been very rocky for the last couple of years and that you got engaged 8 months ago, and that you were close friends for 20 years. To me this sounds like there is a great deal to be addressed before you actually get married. A very huge amount of stuff to think about and consider carefully. Professional assistance is probably in order, although finding the right therapist is something I don't know how to tell you to do either-I found a great one but the only advice on that is that he pissed me off so much at our first meeting that I figured he had to be on to something.

Good luck

Absaroka

Reading this all again I had the thought that maybe you've been engaged for 8 years, not 8 months. You said it's a long story, don't ask. So I won't. But an 8 year engagement means something also that probably needs to be addressed.

None of this makes either of you bad people. But this does sound like a very complex situation.

I have a friend who I will sometimes talk to about conflicts with my wife and kids. He is single and childless. His advice is often limited to the comment that these are people I would run into a burning building for, and to conduct myself accordingly.

Thank you all for your great input. You’ve given me some very good things to think about (and apparently cry about), which is why I posted this plea for help. Believe me when I say that I did not post this flippantly. I am not one to ever suggest doing what I did here… but I didn’t know where else to turn that would give me real-world advice with a fast turnaround. Getting in to a counselor is not always a fast process, and seeing results can usually take even longer. It took me quite a long time to even join the forums, and I was extremely hesitant to post this much detail about my private life. I sought advice privately first, and it was suggested that I turn to you girls, as many of you have been in similar situations, and could hopefully provide good advice. And you have. Again, I thank you all for that!

I know my posting was very one-sided, and I even mentioned that. I was hoping to show a little history and some of my SO’s mindset currently (without making her out to be a monster, which she most certainly is not), to try to focus the advice I would receive. And personally, I think it worked – your advice focused on what I needed. Everything you girls have said I have taken to heart. Much of it I had already thought, but it was good to hear from someone else in the community. Tekla, your insight was very enlightening, and I really appreciate you being so frank. Some things said I hadn’t even thought of before, and it touched me and has made me do some more heavy thinking. I hope I didn’t come across and an uncaring or self-centered person or anything – please believe me when I tell you that I care about my family with all my heart, and certainly recognize that I am not without fault in my relationship. And yes… burning building? No hesitation! (By the way, great advice from your neighbor, Absaroka – sure brings what’s important to the forefront.)

I will seek counseling, immediately. I will also look for a good couple’s counselor (unfortunately, my insurance does not provide this feature.) Kimberlys, you had some great advice on how to expand on counseling – I really liked your ideas on journals, discussions post-session, and topics of conversation. I can really see the benefits of all of those techniques! I guess I was looking for a push in the right direction, and that’s what you all gave me.

As for how soon I talk to my SO about this… I’m still not sure – sooner rather than later, definitely. My biggest fear is that she is too fragile yet to handle full disclosure. I do have a long way to go before I know exactly where I stand with this newly recognized/accepted aspect of myself, and I’m fairly certain I won’t know where the line in the sand is anytime soon - and definitely not before it comes time to talk with her. I certainly wish I had recognized this earlier in my life…. Oh well. 20/20 hindsight, right?

Again, I’d like to say thank you for all for being so caring, especially to new girls. Now, off to find a counselor…

Believe me on this one dear, I sure did not think anything about that was flippant, or else you would have got a flippant response. Bet on that, and I can put the F in flippant like few others. And heck, I do enjoy doing it too.

And you got advice, its unanimous - find a pro, don't trust to advice from some ethereal people you don't know, and don't know you. Look, I like a lot of this stuff on the forums (I do TG forums, music forums, and political forums) and some of it I love. The exchange of ideas, of people thinking things I hadn't come up with, and all that. But, like everything, they have limitations, and interpersonal relationship advice is one of those things.

And no, you did not come across as unthinking or uncaring. All that pain in there is all too real for that.

The really deep stuff that happens in any concealing session, is just that. Very deep, and hard for people to honestly share, even with a trusted councilor in a therapeutical setting, even knowing its going to be confidential. Face it, there are thoughts all of us have that we would just as soon the rest of the world not know about. Also, in any relationship, there are things you know about the other that they would not be all that pleased if you shared.

And do remember what we are good at, what we can do, and what we are pretty good at providing. Its not marriage stuff, but we're OK at the TG stuff - pretty much we are the experts at it, writing the book as we go. When I was young I was the only one I knew, now I go out and see dozens of me all around. On a good night, like pride weekend, or Remember Our Dead march, or the Trans-March, or the Cotillion, I see hundreds of me out there. And that is good.

So we are there for you in that way. You can feel free to say anything about your TG thoughts, dreams, hopes, aspirations and nightmares here - rest assured we have all been there (or we are on our way). Nothing along those line will shock us, surprise us, or seem foreign to us. And like the real world, we have lots of disagreements on life, lifestyles, politics, religion and the rest, but I have to say that over all, the girls here are about the best adjusted to reality bunch of TGrrls I've ever met on the net. And that's worth something.

Don't be a stranger.

Rebecca Liz,

I am not going to be in the majority here, but I am not for any kind of "baby steps" and as for marriage counseling? Well, that is what everyone does right before they get divorced. I do not know of one marriage saved by marriage counseling.

Now? Individual counseling is another thing. There is no substitute for getting ok with oneself. Your SO needs to know what you are and where you are going, but you can't tell her if you don't know. If the truth is, that you want to become a woman or live your life as one, on a full or part time basis. She needs to know this.

There are social implications that go along with this. But also there are physiological implications that go along with this. As a woman, your SO May be disgusted by kissing, hugging or sexual play. She may not be able to get over this. It may not be something she can help.

Having said that, you deserve to live your life in a happy way. Happy meaning, whatever you believe it means. Your SO enjoys this same choice. Some people can work it out and the relationship is the most important thing, other people can not make it work out and still find the happiness they seek.

I also disagree with Tekla that these forums are not powerful tools that can and do change people's lives for the better. While the personal counseling I did was helpful and I take nothing away from it, the words of the people that come here, to this very forum had incredible influence on me.

Not just because of the incredible insight, but also because of experience. Therapists are great and all, but most of them have no idea what it feels like to want to be a gender other than the one I see in the mirror. When I talk to the girls here, they understand what it means to put on the clothes of the opposite sex, because of a desire we don't totally understand.

I have much more confidence in what people say here, than any therapist. Which again is not to knock therapists, they can really help us find out who we are and where we are headed. You want someone unbiased that can question your motivations, call a therapist. You want to know what to do when you get confronted by an angry SO, holding your favorite nighty from your stash, come to the Crossdressers-Forum.

In the end, the truth empowers everyone. It's unlikely you will convince your wife to accept you, if she does not. It's about informed choices and everyone doing what is best for themselves.

Good Luck sis.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Elizabeth wrote: I do not know of one marriage saved by marriage counseling. Now? Individual counseling is another thing. There is no substitute for getting ok with oneself.

Elizabeth, well my wife and I are one marriage that was saved. But we did do a composite of individual and joint counseling with 3 different people. IMHO, it was the relationship skills that saved our marriage. Specifically learning how to communicate better as a couple.

And I will agree with the fact that often marriage counseling comes just before divorce. But IMHO that is usually for one or both of the following two reasons:
- They wait to long before starting it.
- One both of the spouses have given up on the marriage and are not trying to make it work. They are just going through the motions.

Elizabeth wrote:...the words of the people that come here, to this very forum had incredible influence on me.

I agree this and other forums and some web sites had a great impact on me also. But I think a lot for me was because I was able to sort out what was and was not who I was as a person. And also I was not trying to be some other CD/TG/TS, but I was looking with in myself to see who I was like many here have been able to do. But I also she those that come here and just get pulled into the pink fog or those that go into information overload. The key is being able to take and use what you need and leave the rest.

Elizabeth wrote: ...Therapists are great and all, but most of them have no idea what it feels like to want to be a gender other than the one I see in the mirror. ..... You want someone unbiased that can question your motivations, call a therapist.

I agree very much so that there is a lot of work to do in educating those that do the counseling and therapy. It may be a pain, but if you do not relate to a therapist you need to get a different one.

The hardest part of teaching college - at least for me - was to get students to hear what was really said (as opposed to what they wanted to hear) and to read what was actually written (as opposed to what they wanted to see). When it works well, marriage therapy is more or less the same process. Its a matter of really learning to listen to what the other partner is saying (or trying to say) and not just what you want (or think) they are saying. And importantly to the process, the councilor often acts as an interpreter between the two parties.

I've known several couples who were well served by the therapy process, including myself. It pretty much got us from 10 years to 25 years together.

I specifically said that there is a lot of good about the forums. I also said they were not good for interpersonal relationship stuff. It's all but impossible to do that without knowing both people (and knowing things about them they really don't want to share at that). That's all. You read what you wanted, not what I said.

I also said "I'm not a big fan of baby steps. I think that baby steps is often the exact wrong approach." I did that with the caveat that if you are going to lay out a whole cloth all at once you have to know what it is, and how much space its going to cover.

I have been influenced by what I have read on the forums, but never more than the people in my life. It's good. It's not an Alpha/Omega deal. It can help but I've never found it a substitute for real people in real time.

I was very lucky to have such people in my life. Two women in high school, one who helped and encouraged, the other who forced me to dig deep into myself and see the truth - literally to see the light - and who accepted me as that person. Later, I has another encouraging, and GGG, GF, and a professor of clinical psychology who allowed me the space - along with providing me a vocabulary so I could name and define what was in my heart and in my soul.

"I have much more confidence in what people say here, than any therapist." That's a pretty wide ranging statement, and I can't really go along with it, if only because I've read so much bad advice on the forums over the years (that's all the forums, not any single one). So that if its true that these forums have changed people's lives for the better, I'm sure I can find some who it affected in the exact opposite manner.

And, at least in the Bay Area, there are several councilors and therapists who do know us, know our community (and are active in it), have met with us in private and public sessions, and who are quite knowledgeable about being TG. I'm sure that for a lot of people coming into see them for the first time they are more aware than the patient/client. I have worked with several doing outreach and education events and if I were in a position to need their help I know I could, and would, trust them.

But I have more trust in the people I know - and, who conversely, know me. Mostly it comes from the people I expect it to come from, but from time to time it comes from a person I least expect it from. One of the most sympathetic and insightful statements I ever got about being TG from a non-TG, came, in fact, from a Hell's Angel. Like the old Dead song says: "Well, well, well, you can never tell." But no mater the source it comes better over coffee or cocktails, or sitting on a beach, or hiking in the woods, then it does on a screen. It comes better in human words, and a human touch.

This is a good place to get some info quick, and to get a range of opinions, taking that to heart - to make major changes in your life based only on what someone wrote on a web site, well..... that sometimes is a different story.

BTW, the only way my SO is going to be holding my favorite nightie is if she just did the laundry - which never happens. As it turns out, I love laundry - it my form of therapy. But that is my point about being up front with the truth from the get go. But to do that, you have to know the truth. For some that knowledge comes early, for some later. Early is better, and it one of the reasons that I am involved with young people (of age) who are struggling with this.

And really, given that situation of being busted by an unknowing SO, what is anyone really going to say? 'Fess up, or lie. Those are the only options really. "Oh that old rag, that belongs to my girlfriend," is not really an option - or at least not a very workable one, thought there are plenty of closet TGs who would rather be thought of as a cheater than a CD. That's pretty sad really. And I bet if I scoured other sites, I could and would find that exact advice.



P.S. What the Hell's Angel said to me was "You get to choose if you are going to be an outlaw or not, but you don't get to pick what kind of outlaw you are going to be."

Thank you all so very much for all of this input. It is obvious that you all are very caring people, and that is truly what I need right now. I truly appreciate how you’ve all been so non-judgmental of me, and I can really feel that you care about the position and pain I’m in right now. That means a great deal to me!
I am so thrilled by all the great advice you girls are giving here, and I must say this discussion has been very enlightening, and is actually exactly what I was looking for with this post. It’s really great to get so many different viewpoints, as it provides insight from different positions and experience, allowing for a great deal of information to help make decisions. I agree completely that personal face-to-face discussions and human touch are vastly superior to using forums for support – but unfortunately, that is not something I have access to at this point in my life. I am just starting on this journey. I have no friends in the CD/TG community. I have one lesbian friend, but she is a new friend, and I haven’t come out to her yet. My oldest daughter is my only sounding board right now, and she is very supportive! But she is still a teenager, and doesn’t have any of the life experience to truly help me. That is why I turned to the forum, and why your input has been so very helpful to me.

I wasn’t looking for marriage counseling with this post. I was just looking for advice from people who have lived my journey, one way or the other. I was looking for advice on when I should come completely out to my SO, and advice on whether seeking help from a therapist is advisable. I had read some other posts that suggested counseling may cause other problems in my life, such as with traveling abroad and such, and so I was concerned. Your posts have helped me greatly with these issues. Again, Thank You!!

I think all of you have very valid points, based on your personal experiences. I believe that individual counseling, when one is open to actually receiving the help and when the counselor is a ‘fit’ for you, can be life altering. I personally think that everyone can benefit from it, whether they think so or not. But they have to be open to receiving the help, and the counselor has to be someone they can open up to. All of my children have seen counselors for different reasons – but only one benefited from the experience.

As for couples counseling – well, I also believe that it is normally the last step before divorce/breakup. But I also think that it can save relationships, if both participants are open to it, and if it is done early enough in a relationship. I feel that the keys to a great relationship are communication, compromise, and caring. These things don’t always come naturally to people (but can to different degrees), but the skills can often be taught through counseling or workshops – but you must be open to it. For example, my SO and I just finished a parenting class (an outstanding 10 week workshop, btw) that taught us skills for raising our children through love, boundaries, and consistency (I know, obvious, right? – you’d be surprised). Even during the workshop, however, I could tell that we weren’t both going to get the same results from it, because she was not always open to their advice … often, I found her looking for loopholes that would allow her to continue raising the kids the way we had been (which was not working). I’m not saying it was worthless for her, because we have definitely managed to calm things down a bit around the house, but I certainly have seen much more improvement in my relationships with the kids than she has seen, and she has commented on such.

As for baby steps… well, this is a tough one. I believe that I need to tell my SO the whole truth asap. Having said that, I don’t know the whole truth yet. I’m hoping that a counselor will be able to help me find the truth about myself. But I can’t wait for that truth before I talk to her. That just wouldn’t be fair to either of us. So, my plan is to talk to her, tell her what I do know, and just be open to answering any questions she has as honestly as I can. I can’t make her accept this part of me, but I can help her to do so, if it is something she wants to do. I don’t feel that I should tell her and then shove it down her throat by dressing all the time around the house, but I also don’t feel it’s fair that I should have to remain in the closet after coming out to her. The stress it is causing me is becoming very unhealthy. That’s where the baby steps will have to come in, and the degree of them will have to be based on her reaction and acceptance level. There are also my children to think about – but that’s a whole other discussion.

If anyone has information on good support groups in the Sacramento, CA area, I would appreciate if you would pass it on. Feel free to send me a PM.

Again, thank you!

Though not a fan of baby steps, I'm a big supporter of compromise (as long as it goes both ways) and allowing people to have their own comfort level when that is appropriate. And - a huge AND - and letting the other have their own space for what is important to them at the same time.

My GF has her night to go out with her friends and people from work, and that's cool, I can skip it. I'm not real interested in shop talk. I have my nights out, and that's OK - and that's good by her, she HATES the way me and my stagehand buddies talk (she thinks we are filthy, raunchy, and can't get over how much we hate all the bands we work with and how vicious we are about it). A few times a year she goes out with Tekla - opera, ballet and she makes a yearly trek to Trannyshack. Its all good. And I don't require her to do that, its nice she does (and she has come to like the opera and ballet), but as long as I have the space to do it, then its cool. That's all I need. I have others I can (and do) go out with. So its not like I'm being left alone, and even then, I can handle being with myself from time to time also.

Its good to remember that the net is a huge library (with the world's worst indexing system) and like any library you can find all sorts of thoughts, opinions and points of view. However, just like any other library, most of it is, if not outright wrong, at least highly inaccurate or totally useless.

We come from different places, with different things going on in our lives, with different borders, limits and opportunities. Options open to some of us are not - or were not - available to others, so that limits some of the usefulness of any set of remarks. But its good to have a place to toss them all out and other can take what they need and leave the rest.

Find some friends in the TG community! Even more, get involved in the TG community if you can. It will change your life. This is good, and its a start. But as you know, I'm all about face to face, human to human stuff being the best, so finding people who are TG and being able to talk with them, to interact with them is a pretty powerful deal. It will make you feel a lot less alone, they are people who are going through what you are, or have.

Of course being open to something increases the chances of it working. I know people who went to community colleges who came out pretty gosh darn smart, and there is this guy living at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave who went to Yale, and yet I seem to have boxes of Special K on my shelf that I think are smarter (and use the English language better too). But of course if you are looking for loopholes all the time, you will find them. Life is full of loopholes, too bad they often only work in the short run, not the long run.

Lucky my two kids are in college (one just graduated, the other in 2 years) so that parent deal is far behind me now. But as I dimly recall consistency and boundaries was a pretty central feature of it. But I was the 'mom' - working when they were in school while the mother ran a nightclub. But they seemed to grow up OK despite having a CD, blue-collar, academic dad and a mom who was the hippie 'the queen of punk rock' in the Midwest. Kids are pretty resilient after all.


But she is still a teenager, and doesn’t have any of the life experience to truly help me.
>>>> I know several teenagers who are pretty smart in the ways of the world, and tons of people in their 40s/50s who still don't get it - or more like it, are still totally out of it. So..... then again, I'm 100% I would never talk about relationship problems with my kids - particularly when the other person is their mom, but even now, when its not their mom, I doubt it.


Sacramento Gender Association (SGA) has a web site I think.

Lambda Community Center
c/o Marsha
919 20th St.
Sacramento, CA 95821

The oldest, and still the best group of girls is TGSF (sometimes still referred to as ETVC, its old name) - it meets in the City, but I know of girls that come from far and wide to go there. Its the first stop out of the closet for a lot of NorCal girls.
Transgender San Francisco (TGSF)
http://www.tgsf.org

This link has a lot of stuff in that area though some of it might be out of date, I'm not sure.
http://www.tg2tg.org/resources/us/california.htm


If you want to come down to the City some day or night and meet and talk I'm down with that. And I've taken a bunch people out for their first time dressed in public several times now (if you want to wear those red shoes somewhere) and I have not lost one yet. I know the City, and the City knows me. And SF is pretty open to CDs, so there are lots of places to go from some of the sleaziest dive bars you've ever walked into (not being quite sure if you are going to walk out of), to nice quite places for to sit and eat and have coffee, and just about everything in between from mild to wild. There is shopping too.

And there is the monthly TGSF meeting, and though I haven't been in a while, I would be happy to accompany you there, and I've done that for others too. It's a lot easier to do things with someone else than alone. I'm pretty sure about that.

Or we can just meet in guy mode and talk. Hell, I'll meet you naked at Baker Beach (just kidding, but we do have the only nude - opps, "clothing optional" beach on federal property in the nation, sadly its in a location that other than the North Slope of Alaska is the coldest place in the USA).

Sadly, though Sacto is only 66 or so miles from my Santa Rosa digs, the city is easier to get to I think, as the driving mileage on the freeway is about 100 between Sac and SR. Unless of course you like to drive the mountain roads. But that's an option also. I have a nice deck overlooking a creek and I make great coffee. I'm in SF about half the time, in SR the other half, so whatever works if you want to go that way.

I'm told my my GG friends that I listen like a girl, in that I listen, but try hard not to solve (which is what guys do), and most of the time people just want someone who will listen and share a bit. And I'm a highly trained listener, so I think I'm pretty good at it (when I feel like it). I do know I'm about the least judgmental person in the world when it comes to others lifestyles and values, so there is that. And I've raised teenagers, so I know some of that, been in a few deep, long term relationships, and I've dug pretty deeply in my TGness, so I can talk about that (from my point of view). At the least I can and will listen to you.

My bio tells more about me than anyone really needs (or cares) to know:
http://crossdressers-haven.com/forums/v ... php?t=8513

Tekla,

Wow! I'm in tears. Wow! Thank you so much for reaching out to me that way. I'm feeling so alone right now, and to be honest, scared to death. Your post felt like a great big hug, and I really needed that. I really greatly appreciate you reaching out like you just did, and offering to help. I will research the links you provided, and see what is available for me in my area. Thank you for providing them. It is so difficult sometimes to find things on the internet (and sometimes too easy). I'm going to start counseling also. Until I find how this fits into my life with my SO (which hopefully won't take very long to determine), I don't think I could get away with a road trip, as much as I think it would do me a great deal of good. I don't have the wardrobe to go out dressed yet, either. I'm trying to work on that, but I don't have a clue about makeup yet, and don't have the opportunities to work with it yet, unfortunately. I would love to take you up on any of your offers at some point in the hopefully near future, if you are still willing when the time comes. My red heels are begging to breathe (and these cute black pumps I just picked up just dying for a walk) Thank you so much!